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#2 and #3 is how we'd branch this game if we agreed on what clearing a level means. Not losing by the original sport rules feels like the sanest way of defining it, but that's just my preliminary opinion.
If we agree that this game has a meaningful completion criterion, then we won't have to invent new rules or clauses. Adding max score as a valid any% goal mixes it together with full completions. It feels like we're trying to patch away the internal problem of the game that's too simplistic to have traditional any% definition. Not having strictly capped max score makes it worse.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Memory wrote:
You are playing through all of the events with a goal of aiming for the high score. By playing all the events you are going through all unique content the game has to offer and high score adds an objective to aim for. If completion is considered a problem because of that rule, the rules need to be fixed because it's not like you can just add additional events.
This seems like a rule written with speedruns in mind and is one of the flaws with the site in my opinion.
I think instead we should focus on this, as an explicit rule for sports games:
In sports that depend on a variety of environments or situations, such as golf, completion can be defined by clearing every environment or situation in the game.
Does this movie clear every event? If it does not, maybe it should?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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WarHippy wrote:
Secondly, it keeps getting brought up that there needs to be proof that the score is truly maximum. Where are the guidelines for this? I know it got mentioned in the previous judgment of this submission, but I believe that was by mistake. Max score had only ever been an allowable goal for moons tier, but it was set to be published in Vault so that shouldn’t have been mentioned at all in the notes.
It’s great if you want to definitively prove that it’s the maximum. I just don’t know why that would be required.
Requirement that there must be a hard-coded score cap to count as full completion, has been removed. If score is the only viable way of defining full completion for a game, we don't require you to get absolute maximum (like 100 out of 100 available), even though that's preferable obviously. We require you to gain as much as TAS tools allow you. Which may vary, just like final completion time depends on one's skills.
WarHippy wrote:
So, a couple things... maybe I missed it, but has there been a clear consensus that max score is the only valid completion criteria?
Not yet.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Highest score subjectively makes sense generally, but it doesn't automatically make this movie meet other rules. What is required to make a "max score" run eligible for Vault has been linked a lot of times in this thread, go and read.
electricslide wrote:
The author has already found a way to increase it.
Where? He doesn't say that at all.
I got a PM from him.
electricslide wrote:
What do you mean by "superplay" at all?
Games done to precision beyond unassisted human capabilities.
This does not automatically make that "game" meet any of the movie rules we have.
electricslide wrote:
What ruling?
The reason this game is now being reconsidered now.
You said "the original ruling was crap which is why the rules were changed", and you don't even know what ruling you're calling crap exactly?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Vykan12 wrote:
- "Talk about low attention spans" Seems judgmental at first, but also fairly objective. Why else would so many people be voting no/meh to a video that's less than 180 seconds long?
I think the real reason is how gameplay of this game compares to what a given person uses to enjoy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Um, what is Avpag?
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Evil_3D, how do you make camhack focus on Tails all the time? When I just switch the target with Page Up, it gets reset when the Tails object disappears.
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electricslide wrote:
Are you ever planning to start caring about the site's goals and principles?
Featuring entertaining Tool-Assisted superplay movies? This qualifies. It's a superplay of this particular game.
Which of our movie rules says "being a superplay is enough to get published"?
electricslide wrote:
What you did last time was argue the following. We have 4 bins. This movie doesn't fit in bin 1, bin 2, bin 3 or bin 4, therefore it can't be published. That's crap.
The fact that your ruling would have permitted a 'fastest run' that zoned out of every event as fast as possible indicates that your prior reasoning was massively flawed. If the 'rules' bar good videos, but let through trash videos, then it's clear that the problem has to do with the rules.
This movie is not "fastest run", it sacrifices time to gain higher score. Otherwise I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Provide some quotes regarding who said what and why it was wrong.
electricslide wrote:
In this particular movie you're now arguing that because "we cannot be certain that this is the truly highest score, therefore it can't be published". Which is also crap. Can anyone improve on any of the scores in this game?
I haven't said that even once. Quote?
electricslide wrote:
I noticed that you didn't actually answer my question..
There is no question in your first post of this thread.
electricslide wrote:
In this case, we have a video where there are clear maximums for each event.
Those are not "clear maximums", because when the game is not programmed to limit your score explicitly, any score can be maximum.
electricslide wrote:
There's no way I can see that the score can be manipulated to increase, and there's also no loops in the game.
The author has already found a way to increase it.
electricslide wrote:
So we get back to the question. What would a superplay of this particular game look like? How would a player seek to maximize performance in the game? I think the choices of the submitter make sense to me. Lowest possible time in the track sections, and highest score in the field events.
Sure makes a helluva lot more sense than 'fastest time'.
Goals need to take into account game choices. Certain goals are not going to be appropriate for all games. In this case I think that what's been done here is an appropriate choice to show off what a superplay of this game would look like.
And ultimately, I think that's the main purpose of this site, no? To publish superplays of available games that demonstrate precision, and play beyond what can be achieved by human players.
What do you mean by "superplay" at all?
electricslide wrote:
And the original ruling was crap which is why the rules were changed.
What ruling?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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WarHippy wrote:
So there does exist a game manual
In the Scoring section it says that achieving 1000+ points in any event will award you with a musical tribute. So while the ending doesn't change based on performance, the content does. There is also even an (unofficial?) Club of Champions which awards you Gold status at 10,000 points or more.
Since the game does recognize some form of high score, I believe that unlocking the musical tribute in every event can count as full completion.
That being said (unfortunately) I don't think this game falls under Max Score rules anymore. I think this run would have to be re-done in order to get to 1000 points as fast as possible in each event and then scratching out as soon as possible afterwards.
In Pole Vault you can only get 957 at max, so either way it feels incomplete if we define winning as getting 1000 on each event.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Thanks! Indeed it's incredible!
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You can help by breaking down how the game actually scores each event and action.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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unwright wrote:
Why is a 2.5 year old submission being necro'd & discussed at all? It's an obvious 'no' and that has been made abundantly clear.
Can we close this one out? Please?
See the bottom of submission text.
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electricslide wrote:
man the original rejection is such crap. Yes, it's possible that the score may be improvable, but until it's actually achieved that the score can be bested, it should have been accepted.
Are you ever planning to start caring about the site's goals and principles?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I looked for "png" and "jpg" and couldn't find any externally hosted embedded images that weren't working. The only ones that don't work are those whose hosting is dead.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion.
The problem is quite simple and precise: the actual completion requirements are missing from the game.
You can't call "reaching the highest score" game completion because 1) it's a non-binary condition, and 2) it's arbitrary. I may suggest that you're supposed to not fail in any of the attempts. Or to beat some record in each of them. Or something else. When there's no hard requirement for meaningful completion, you can invent any soft requirement, but it would remain artificial, not inherent. Meaningful completion criteria are undefined for this game.
And we can't use max score to outright replace the fastest completion goal, because... that won't help with the completion definition.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Vaultable max score requires the game to be completed according to our general rules, but this is a sports game so it has an additional requirement.
Mothrayas wrote:
The [sports] game must have a meaningful ending point with meaningful completion criteria.
If in order to progress and clear the game, there is no requirement to do well, or not even to not fail at each sport, then I do not consider that meaningful completion criteria.
In sports that depend on a variety of environments or situations, such as golf, completion can be defined by clearing every environment or situation in the game.
With this game, you don't need to clear anything, it doesn't matter how sloppily you play, you still get the same result all the time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Even if there's such an event, infinite gameplay loops are banned from vaultable max score. Which means you can have a proper max score run that just avoids such techniques.
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#MaximumPoints
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I think IMDB's system is the best.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111161/
Press the Rate This star to make the 10-star scale appear, you pick one whole star, done! It shows up as n.m, but you don't have to invent arbitrary meanings for fractional points! Just like with actual movies, you lump every factor together and rate the entire thing at once. Also just like with movies you'll know anything above 8 is worth taking a look.
I don't know why we should reinvent the wheel here and pretend we know the world better than those 2 million people who feel they understand this movie rating system.
adelikat wrote:
I just wanted to say that Radiant is very likely correct.
I wanted to learn how to examine the DB and actually check if this is how everything is, but never got around to it. Could someone with DB access figure this out?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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So true
[2:54 AM] Woops: I was lazy today
[2:54 AM] Woops: gonna fix it tomorrow
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Since 5.0-11318, MMU must be explicitly enabled for TASes.
Go to Config -> Advanced and tick Enable MMU.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
BizHawk 2.2.2 + NesHawk, no follow cursor, q binded to turbo
Holding the turbo button while focused on TAStudio decreases speed. The easiest way to test this is loading up a slow (in performance on your computer) core and trying to hold turbo button while you focused BizHawk and then the same with TAStudio focused.
I already have 40fps, turbo on TAStudio 22fps, turbo on BizHawk 40fps.
(This isn't the "mouse over TAStudio slowing stuff".)
Should be fixed in interim.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Memory wrote:
First one can be done real time in the same time quite easily. The second is a bit more complex since you have to build up enough speed to get a jump and then end on the other ramp but it's not too hard to get a similar time.
Honestly it doesn't sound like a major problem overall. For a game with no ending, treating each level as its own mode is incredibly iffy. I think playing all the content in this case is saner than excluding a single event.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'm totally for 2P!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
