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When I noticed that someone named Android had beaten my death mode highscore, I got interested in Sprint's tetris game again. I lost interest when the controls changed. I haven't beaten Android's score yet, but I'm getting more and more used to the controls.
Anyway, I had this game yesterday where I got a truly amazing sequence of block. You can watch it here: http://ccgi.gdward.plus.com/cgi-bin/tetris/index.php?replay=7800 (skip to 1 minute, 30 seconds by pressing the right arrow key)
Since the new controls make it slightly easier to deal with the higher levels, I decided to revisit normal mode, and after making a slight improvement to my record earlier today, I got a significant improvement just now! You can watch it here: http://ccgi.gdward.plus.com/cgi-bin/tetris/index.php?replay=7804 (The game takes over 20 minutes, the final minutes are the most interesting, press the right arrow key to skip forward)
Edit: oops, provided the wrong link for the lucky sequence. Now it's the correct one.
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feos wrote:
Moons runs can have whatever input file length is beter liked by the author and the viewers. Vault runs can only be time records, so sacrificing real time to bring the game to the completion state sooner (say, by skipping the ending cutscenes) is not justified, since the run overall was not liked and is only valuable as a time record.
Others seem to agree with feos here:
CoolKirby wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
For vault, I would say shortest input should be used and other tiered TASes should aim for the more entertaining version if the viewers demand it.
This is my view on it too.
I certainly agree that people should be free to choose the most entertaining option for moon runs, and I might also agree that for the vault a set rule would be better. I'm not quite sure why that set rule should be input time though, except maybe for convenience.
I thought the vault was meant to show records only, and isn't concerned with entertainment. When I read something like this:
feos wrote:
I, on the contrary, love such endings, because they add more of the unintended touch. Everyone knows how it can be played in normal conditions. Overcoming them requires creative thinking. Some runs that end input really early need quite some planning and manipulation. It is a unique task, presenting more interesting effects.
This is not something that I would associate with a vault run. I would argue that having such an unintended touch is not what the vault is about. It is about providing a TAS that completes the actual game the fastest.
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I decided to create this thread since the posts in the recent Defenders of the Crown submission show that there are different views about this issue. So, what's the deal?
The currently published Defenders of the Crown TAS aims for the shortest possible input time. This means that the final battle is manipulated so that it will complete the game, but it will not be the fastest possible final battle. This published movie has an input time of 1:46 and the final battle is won at around 2:54. The the recent submission has an input time of 1:57 and the final battle is won at around 2:02. Had this been a non-toolassisted speedrun on SDA, this new submission would be considered to be 52 seconds faster.
On TASvideos however, the record time displayed is the input time. The input file allows for this time to be calculated automatically, it's well-defined and can easily be compared. Games like Defenders of the Crown make you wonder what our real goal is though, to provide TASes that completes the game as fast as possible, or to provide the shortest possible input file.
This discussion is not new, over 7 years ago, I wrote this in the Mega Man 5 submission thread. There, I even suggested a third possible option:
Baxter wrote:
Finishing movie at final hit, and shortest avi time
I asked Bisqwit right before I submitted, and he preferred movie stop at final hit. The main reason for this was that any input after movie stop will not influence the game being finished. I did this in my movie, since it seemed it was also done in some other megaman movies like megaman 4.
Shortest input time, while keeping same avi time
I intentionally made my shot from very far away to show it could also have ended at frame 118996. The movie would have ended about the same way, and the avi would have been exactly equally long. You could prevent the game from finishing, by pressing start after input (the bullet will disappear.
Shortest input time, with longer avi time
It's also possible to make a weapon switch to napalm bomb, shoot a bomb and stop input. Since the bomb moves so slow, it will be ~10 frames faster than 118996, even with the weapon switch. Using this would result in a longer avi time, and a possibility to make the movie not finish, when playing after input time. This method would however give the lowest input time.
In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which of these is used, I would however like it if the FAQ was more clear about which one of these to pick.
A strict adherence to shortest input time (option 3) seems to create strange situations for games Mega Man 5 and Defenders of the Crown. Any thoughts on this matter?
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More of a general remark, but I think it should be clear in (nearly) all of the clips what is going on, even if the viewer is unfamiliar with the game. Sometimes the story behind it is cooler than how it looks. I don't know for instance how well a clip of a pokemon being caught would work in such a video. Also, the more the video and the audio coincide, the better.
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Maybe a normal player will have his or her shield eaten too. In fact, if a player has maxed out heart containers, the red ring and the magic sword, I'm not so sure that a normal player will have to rely on potions to beat ganon.
Yes, you can lose the potion if you use it, but that's true for the meat and for the magic shield too.
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Regardless, an upgraded shield is a step away from default starting conditions, and it gives you more to do as well. I say get 'em all.
Same can be said for the potions. If both the magic shield and the bait should be carried by Link at the end of the game, I don't really see why the potions should not be.
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DecafGrub47393 wrote:
Nach wrote:
I'm personally going to drag out back and shoot the next person to suggest something about how we should follow the rules of a specific video game site, or make it a site goal to specifically promote a certain video game site.
If editors want to put information about runs elsewhere in a particular movie's description, when it makes sense to, they can do so.
No outside video game site is special, nor carries any weight more than any other one. The relevance of outside movies differ on a movie to movie basis.
For now I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone in this thread, and assume you all meant that movies should mention if they were beaten by a record elsewhere, wherever that is, if applicable.
So if a run of ours is beaten elsewhere in real time, we should probably have a page listing high priority movies to redo.
I agree.
I don't agree.
As Patashu said, the TAS is probably only slower due to some new trick or glitch, not because it's less optimized than the realtime run. There are probably quite a few runs with known improvements. I don't see why games that 1) happen to have known improvements that are executable in realtime runs, 2) happen to have an SDA run that incorporates this known improvement and 3) where this particular improvement accounts for some arbitrary time difference should be singled out.
A general page where known improvements can be looked up per game might not be a bad idea.
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Thank you so much for testing! I admire the perseverance and congrats on solving it! Bisqwit sent me the replays and I watched part of it; very interesting to see :)
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OmegaWatcher wrote:
Potions? I guess it would be part of the 100% run, but it's so useless in a TAS.. But, then again, the shield is as useless.
The shield is less useless as having the piece of meat a second time. At least you can walk head first into some enemy projectiles without being hit, which could theoretically be useful. (If useless means not being used, then stuff like the power bracelet, magic wand, book and magic boomerang are also useless.)
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While this is still somewhat a hot topic, and before this returns to the depts of the regular forum topic, I would like know what people would then consider to be necessary for the 100% definition.
Should it have: meat? big shield? potions? I haven't heard anyone about potions... on the one hand it can be seem as hearts or bombs, just an item that can be used and is thereby lost... on the other hand, big shield and meat are also items that can be lost... in the second quest, even heart containers can be lost...
And what about obsolete items such as the white sword, blue candle, wooden boomerang, blue ring?
A TAS of this game is a lot of work, and you cannot expect someone to make another 100% TAS on the off-chance that a small majority agrees with the particular choices you made. There has to be some kind of general concensus.
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I wanted to refrain from commenting on the goals, but now that it's being discussed, I might as well add this: I was wondering about obtaining the meat. This is an item that can be used and thereby lost permanently, unless you buy it again. It happens to be that the first quest only has one place where you can use it, so if you buy a second piece of meat, you technically cannot lose it... but this only is a quirk of the first quest. The second quest has more than one, and the Outlands hack of this game has a lot more places where meat can be used. Suppose one of these places could be bypassed... the meat would be an item that can be lost then if the game is finished, or you would have to visit all places where the meat can be used, even if those places could normally be bypassed? Just some thoughts...
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VanillaCoke wrote:
Can someone explain what the benefit to glitching out the graphics in level 5 are? I'm not familiar with any of the Zelda 1 runs, so I haven't seen it done before. Looking at the submission text didn't help either ._.
There is no real benefit.. I could also have included it in one of my Zelda TASes, but I decided against it as I think it is only cool for 20 seconds, and annoying for the rest of the run. It is triggered by entering the dungeon sooner than the game anticipates you to (though I don't know the exact requirements). I think it can be avoided by waiting for 1 frame before entering the dungeon.
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Yeah, there are lots of options for defining what 100% means for this game. I probably would have picked slightly different restrictions for this run, but I understand the choices made here.
The technical quality of the TAS seems very good. The only two things that stood out were the Dodongo fight as mentioned before in this thread and whistling 4 times after world 5. I think it's possible to so it with fewer whistles if you face the other direction. Other than that it seems pretty solid. A huge improvement over the earlier WIPs you put up on the forum; great job! About the route; it seemed quite good but there might be other interesting options :)
As for entertainment, it was nice to see some rooms that aren't in the any% and seeing a 100% route; voting yes!
(100% would be, relative to the published run, even more different for the Outlands hack, as most of the game is skipped for the any%... there are some repeating boss fight there though...)
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Only a single reply in a week, and exactly the reply I feared: all 99 should be TASed, but that's probably too many levels to remain interesting for the entire duration of the TAS. Making this TAS would require way too much work to end up in the vault... it seems like my efforts are better spent elsewhere....
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John11 wrote:
Baxter wrote:
Made a new map again after quite some time: Two Islands
Let me know what you think :)
Tricky map. I'm pretty sure I figured out how to solve it as intended the first time, but here's a 7 portal least portal run:
Link to video
Nice movie! The intended route requires traveling back to the first Island again after reaching the second. Did you do that?
It's been a long time since I made any Portal 2 maps, but since my last post, I did make a couple more. The two best maps among these 'new' ones are 3x3 and Flipping Funnel, so be sure to try those too :).
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I've been interested in this game for quite a while now. Unfortunately, there has only been a submission that uses a password to skip to the final boss.
As John11 said in his last post, he'd help out anyone who was considering doing a TAS for this game and that was no lie. He did some amazing research on this game, completely figuring out how the item drops work, and he made a very nice lua script as well!
This lead me to make a WIP of the first four levels, which can be found here: 4_level_WIP.bkm
(Small note, rerecords aren't very accurate, I TASed it mostly on Snes9x and then used the best strategy I found when creating the bizhawk input file.)
The game works as follows:
All levels are regular Arkanoid levels except for:
Level 11: boss A
Level 22: boss B
Level 33: boss C followed by a 2 minute unskippable cutscene leading into level 34
Level 44: boss A with more HP
Level 55: boss B with more HP
Level 66: boss C with more HP followed by 3 minutes of unskippable cutscene / credits leading into level 67
Level 77: boss A with even more HP
Level 88: boss B with even more HP
Level 99: boss C with even more HP, the game ends after beating this boss
To everybody who watched the WIP, I would love to know in which group you would put yourself:
1) I did not enjoy the WIP.
2) I enjoyed the WIP, but 33 levels of it is probably too much.
3) I enjoyed the WIP, I would probably enjoy 33 levels but 99 levels is probably too much. The movie should stop after 33 levels.
4) I enjoyed the WIP, I would probably enjoy 33 levels but 99 levels is probably too much. Completing 33 levels doesn't really finish the game though, so you should TAS all 99 levels anyway.
5) I enjoyed the WIP and I would probably enjoy 99 of these levels. The TAS should complete all 99 levels.
Please be honest... I'd much rather hear what you think about it now than later.
(If you haven't watched the WIP, but want to comment on this matter, feel free to do so as well of course ;)
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Not sure if I agree. Certainly, if it would give you as much red coins as you wanted instantly and dumbed down the strategy, then sure. The duplication costs however some time and it can't be repeated as often as one likes. This means having to test for every dupe if it's worth it, which red coin should be bypassed etc. Also, since there is a level with 21 red coins, you will be skipping a coin anyway. The coin duplication in 4-6 looks quite cool actually, and the one in 5-4 is particularly interesting.
I do understand where ElectroSpecter is coming from, but, as mentioned in the submission text, had we chosen to not use that glitch, then there would be people who rather had that we did use it. Can't please everyone at the same time.
