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What's this?? A wip?!?
Either way, it's a very nice wip, and indeed 33 frames faster. It seems that you were right about that slide cancelling... it looks really faster and awesome. Shinryuu was a frame faster in the second room, but in all others mega_man_3 was faster. I wouldn't be shocked though if a few frames could be shaved off though. At some moment in the level, mega_man_3 had 6 more lag frames in total than shinryuu... at the end of the level this was only three though.
Either way... nice to finally see a wip... makes me even more curious about that megaman 5 wip.
Nice job on showing it's possible :) You were only 1 life short of game over though :P
Either way... this kinda proofs that a 2 player run isn't possible (unless probably you would kill everything with one player to get him all lives, and let player 2 be gone for a short while of the TAS... but it would see kinda random.
Here are the useful ram adresses for Super C:
00FD |
00FC |
00C0 |
00CC |
00CD |
00C2 |
0679 |
067A |
067B |
067C |
067D |
067E |
0016 |
001C |
00C1 |
00CE |
00CF |
00C3 |
067F |
0680 |
0681 |
0682 |
0683 |
0684 |
I didn't write down notes what each was. There are some level position, character position, maybe for player 2 also, maybe lag adress, and lots and lots of enemy health adresses, which are also boss health adresses.
Edit: If you can't figure out what a certain adress does, let me know, and I'll give it a try figuring out.
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Swift Finch wrote:
Also, tried from RT's run, the aliens don't seem to be passable without dying. However, judging by his run, I should have enough lives to get past them.
I don't think it's possible to get past level 7 in a pacifist run, even with dying. I'd suggest you or someone else to make a movie clearing level 7 first in a pacifist way before starting to TAS this.
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mega_man_3 wrote:
Oh, but I already uploaded the movie last night. I can't find the link for that one. I closed out the page right after I uploaded it. Does this mean I have to upload it again?
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RT-55J wrote:
Things to keep in mind:
- The Spread gun increases boss health by a non-trivial amount.
- The Fire gun is chargeable, and (IIRC) has the highest damage per second rate in the game.
Is he allowed to shoot the orbs to get different powerups? I don't really know how pacifist is defined... but if it is something like "shoots as little as possible", then getting other weapons would be a problem (if it is "kills as least enemies as possible", then I guess it's possible (if the orbs aren't considered enemies of course)).
RT-55J wrote:
- imho, the major choke-points will be the bubbles in Stage 4 and most of Stage 7. See if you can get past those stages before continuing.
Hmm, if it is "kills no enemies at all", then level 7 might be troublesome. I'm pretty sure the bubbles at level 4 can be bypassed. If, like he says, he my kill himself, the invulnerability time probably solves the level 7 problems too.
Either way, a 2-player run is always more interesting to watch than a single player run... just saying...
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Wow, that's an awesome improvement. Very nice to skip that top block all together... very inventive, and another second of improvement is huge :D
Btw, what do you mean by 20%? 20% of all the time saved since the first published Lolo movie?
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moozooh wrote:
Baxter wrote:
I think TASing is about entertainment, and while your suggestion might not have been done before in realtime, it is probably the least attractive TAS to look at... especially for someone that hasn't played the game. Aiming for highscore on hard mode is probably the most interesting, and it would be interesting from another aspect too, and I think there were official tool assisted released, to show like the best possible game. It would be interesting if those would be beaten here.
You are probably talking about the Ikaruga Appreciate DVD. The good part is that it features absolutely amazing and polished gameplay. The bad part (for us here) is that it's absolutely unassisted, played using arcade sticks on arcade hardware. The Hard mode score on that DVD is 34,289,970 by Yusemi-SWY, the former world record. The current record is 35,445,270 by Gakki. The theoretical maximum is around 37 million (that's with perfect chaining and very extensive bullet eating, including eating through Tageri to last second). Both have been done separately in unassisted conditions, so such a TAS would barely be different from the (imo much more impressive) best examples of unassisted gameplay.
Now dodging bullets without eating them… That's actually impossible in unassisted conditions. All the more impressiveness to the TAS.
I thought there was something tool assisted out... Either way, Perfect bullet eating in combination with perfect combo's for a full run still seems most interesting to watch... certainly at the start, no bullet eating is somewhat boring, as you would just wait, as there isn't too much happening if the enemies don't even get shot. Either way... I somehow think that GC and Wii TASes are farther away than we might hope them to be... but since both runs are opposites, I think there is probably a place for them both.
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moozooh wrote:
Sir VG wrote:
Eh, not really. I think going for high score and maintaining a very high combo on the highest difficulty would be much more exciting then dot eater.
It's just that the game is so well-competed it's barely possible to squeeze even a dozen more hits in any given stage (some stages, like 1st and 5th, aren't even that hard to full-chain unassisted).
I just realized that a hard mode "reverse dot eater" (not shooting and NOT eating any bullets if possible; essentially a low-score run) will probably be the best possible solution for TASing this game, because it's the one that has never been accomplished, to my knowledge.
I think TASing is about entertainment, and while your suggestion might not have been done before in realtime, it is probably the least attractive TAS to look at... especially for someone that hasn't played the game. Aiming for highscore on hard mode is probably the most interesting, and it would be interesting from another aspect too, and I think there were official tool assisted released, to show like the best possible game. It would be interesting if those would be beaten here.
As for other games... I would in other cases mainly suggest games that are specifically suitable for TASing... but in this case, lots of the games don't even have speedruns, OR the speedruns aren't fully up to date... so I'd love to see a lot of runs:
Mario sunshine and galaxy
Metroid 1,2,3
F-zero GX
Starfox adventures
Beyond good and evil
Okami
Zelda WW and TP
Mario Kart DD and Wii
Ikaruga
Resident Evil games
Some Sonic game perhaps
Maybe even Wii play - Tanks!
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Zugzwang wrote:
Ive been quiet for a few days because my son was born on 1-15-09. Carter Evan Pike (my wife wouldnt accept Lolo Evan Pike) Happy Day. :D
Whoah, congrats man :D (I think your son will be happy he won't be called Lolo his entire life ;)
Zugzwang wrote:
It certainly wasn't my intention to be a co-author but I would be honored.
You more than deserve it. Seeing so many inventive improvements to a TAS that had been looked at over and over this many times is a great accomplishment.
Zugzwang wrote:
I've been playing when I get a chance and finally found the 8 frame improvement in 10-4 I had mentioned on the 28th. It might be a touch more or less than 8 frames. I dont know how to frame advance. It was my real time strat that helped with this improvement as I dont have to pause in the upper left corner. The difficult part was finding the pause in the upper right to time the Don Medussa.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1804779070/AdvLolo-6.fm2
Wow, very nice. I timed it, and it's actually 26 frames faster!
It gave me a bit of inspiration to check out the level some more though, and I was able to improve your version by another 20 frames! It involves using the snake for the second time not at the top left, but at the bottom left. 10-4 is now 46 frames faster than the published run!!
Here is the fm2.9 levels improved by Zugzwang, and two by me.
Note: 1 full step is 16 frames
Level 3-1 46 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 3-2 43 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 6-1 16 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 6-3 7 frame improvement (Baxter)
Level 8-4 112 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 8-5 138 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 9-3 41 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
Level 10-1 16 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
Level 10-2 64 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
Level 10-3 8 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
Level 10-4 46 frame improvement (Baxter)*
*After Zugzwang improved it by 26 frames first.
537 frames (about 9 seconds) faster than the published run.
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mega_man_3 wrote:
Now that you're done with that level, I have a strategy to skip the last enemy in room 4 of Gravity Man's stage so that you won't have to take damage from it.
Keep sliding until you get to the ledge then jump on the ledge and slide backwards and so as far to the left as you can so that you avoid the enemy.
If you had watched either the movie I uploaded in this topic, or that I sent you through PM, you would have noticed that I already skipped this enemy in those wips.
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I'm done again with the starman battle. In addition to the 2 frames I saved by the gate trick, I managed to eliminate 4 more frames of lag, so I'm currently 6 frames ahead of the previous wip.
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DRybes wrote:
Blaise wrote:
Its a shame this wastes so much time that its impractical, but it'd go pretty smooth. Warping to 6-8 like in the glitch tas, beating it, then going back to world 1. By the time he gets to 6-8 again it'll be like an hour or two later so I could live with watching it a 2nd time. If it has to be 2 times nearly consecutive, eh fast forward's there for a reason.
In that vein...
Is it possible to use the warp glitch to warp to bonus stages before they're unlocked by getting 100% on a world? If so, 6-E could cleverly be performed right when world 6 was beginning, in the course of a 100% TAS. It might involve backtracking to a stage like Gusty for the required coins, but it would ultimately exit with the map on world 6. Net time loss ~20-25 seconds at most.
That's probably possible, but that would mean the warp trick is allowed in the TAS... and the goals are more clearer when it isn't.
It would also make the TAS a lot harder, since, when it's allowed, in some instances it might be faster to warp to a level out of order for egg management or something... and the amount of planning needed would probably be out of control. I think the option of doing 6-8 twice is the best, which also keeps the clearest goals.
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Guess I'll help a bit:
For NES TAS:
[1052] NES Gimmick! by Deign
[1091] NES Little Samson by klmz
[1059] NES "warpless" Super Mario Bros 3 by adelikat,Deign,Cardboard&JXQ
[1150] NES Mega Man 3 by Aglar
For SNES:
[1132] SNES Rockman & Forte by FractalFusion
[1135] SNES "120-exit" Super Demo World - TLC by Chef Stef
Speedy TAS:
[1070] NES Excitebike by JXQ
Funny TAS:
[1179] NES Double Dragon 2 by adelikat
[1190] N64 Super Smash Bros. by Blaze
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moozooh wrote:
Well, if 484 frames of a 491-frame improvement to an already tight movie were found by Zugzwang, I think it would only be fair to list him as a co-author, not?
Yeah, I was thinking the same. I'll submit it listing both of us as authors.
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I completed the fm2 movie file, which includes all the latest improvements again: 9 levels improved by Zugzwang, and one by me.
Note: 1 full step is 16 frames
Level 3-1 46 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 3-2 43 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 6-1 16 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 6-3 7 frame improvement (Baxter)
Level 8-4 112 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 8-5 138 frame improvement (Zugzwang)
Level 9-3 41 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
Level 10-1 16 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
Level 10-2 64 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
Level 10-3 8 frame impovement (Zugzwang)
I said last time I was very lucky with the lengths of the black screens. This time, I was less lucky, and lost 2 frames due to those. In the end, this version is 182 frames faster than the previous improvements wip and 491 frames (a little over 8 seconds) faster than the published run.
I'll check some levels again, and will submit this if no improvements have been found for a short while.
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mega_man_3 wrote:
I was talking about the first gate. I'm talking about right after the gate closes back. Do you know what I'm talking about? It might be just 1 or 2 frames faster.
Ah, I know what you are talking about now. That's a nice find, good job :). It appears to be 2 frames faster in this case :S...
It will be hard to hold on to those 2 frames with all the randomness... I'll see if I need to redo from here or not.
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mega_man_3 wrote:
Oh, and there's another small time saver at the first boss gate where right after it's done closing while you're sliding press the left button for 1 frame and slide again.
Are you talking about the first gate? I am constantly sliding there, don't know why cancelling a slide, and doing a new one would be faster....
If you are talking about the secong gate, then yes... it is possible to slide in the room before the boss gets there. But this also makes the boss appear later. And because bullets travel faster than megaman sliding, it's better not to do it.
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mega_man_3 wrote:
In the Mega Man 3456 run, there is a glitch where if there is a screen transition going down and you place two Super Arrows at the top of the screen (one that you can stand on and one that you jump repeatedly automatically on it) at the correct position then you slide on them, you will go through the top of the screed to the bottom and there will be a screen transition going down.
Hehe... well obviously, I will be using this in the run, it's not like I have forgotten. In fact, it's the main reason I'm redoing the run probably.
mega_man_3 wrote:
P.S. Hey Baxter, how far are you on your run?
I was done with Gyroman, and had started the next level... but since I know now that the Gravityman fight is improvable, I'm at that spot again.
