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Well, if you compare this to the regular game, then the regular game can't be glitched nearly as much. I was both playing, and testing this game, and testing the glitching on it, and I constantly found good stuff. I think it was exceptional how everything came together in both quests in the end. For instance the first quest didn't need any of the weapons like ladder, flute, raft, bracelet, etc. At the second quest, flute and ladder were needed for getting the sword, but not only for that. The flute was also needed to get the money, and enter level 9. The ladder was also needed in two levels. So everything that was collected was needed a lot in the second quest, while in the first quest a lot of that was bypassed. It is not like the glitch can be used anywhere you like, there are quite some limitations to it... but it all worked out perfectly, even with these limitations at this game. It almost seemed like it was meant to be completed this way.
Even though it was glitched this much, I think still every aspect in this run is well represented. It even has things that the regular game doesn't show at either the first or second quest, like a large sword battle with 8 'bunnies ' (each needed to be hit 10 times), the use of boomerang, swordless questing, or a room with 8 'mummies'.
I understand that some people don't feel like spending their time on playing this hack, but still want to know everything about the game (a walkthrough)... and you are right, this isn't a walkthrough. I think the entertainment you get some watching a movie which collects all fairies is the game kind of entertainment you get from a movie which just shows a walkthrough. A movie which just collects all fairies (unoptimized) can be made pretty fast... I don't think a TAS is needed for that.
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Speedgolf might also be cool. If a ball needs to travel long in the air to make a hole in one, it might even be faster for speed golf to shoot the first shot in the rough... might be interesting.
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I'd love to see someone make a TAS of this game. I think the run should start from a savestate and complete the tournaments with metal mario... that would be cool :)
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Kyrsimys wrote:
I don't understand this fixation with a swordless run. You hardly ever use the sword in this run! I can't see why it would be accepted.
Well, the most basic weapon in the game is skipped. I can see that it's a cool concept. I do agree that this new movie didn't use the sword that much anyway, so there is no real need for a swordless movie, and I personally would never make a swordless movie. I still wouldn't see it as impossible that someone made such a movie though, and would get accepted (and I can see myself voting yes too. if the movie is done well).
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xebra wrote:
Phil and Baxter, can you finish your abandoned movie so we can have a movie with no glitches? Now it seems sensible to have two versions of this movie.
The glitch was used 6 times in this movie inside the levels. A new version would use it about 8 times inside the levels. For the rest, it will only save time at the overworld, and it's not like the overworld parts take a lot of time anyway. I don't think it's enough to warrant a new run. It will be the same, with a little more walking in the overworld, and a few more rooms where all enemies need to be killed in the levels.
This would also mean that there can be a regular and a non-glitch run for the second quest. But what about swordless movies? I can imagine a swordless movie being accepted, and a second quest swordless movie... but then there would have to be seperated categories for regular swordless first quest, non-glitch swordless first quest, and so on. This would mean there are 8 possible runs for this game, which is probably a little too much (not even counting FDS runs of the game :P).
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hero of the day wrote:
just worry about the in-game frame counter
I will always vote for the movie which completes the game in the shortest amount of frames. If the movie is shorter in real time, I'll vote yes, if it's longer in real time, I'll vote no. I'll still vote yes if you aimed for ingame time and it's shorter in real time, but that does mean the movie is improvable in my view.
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I heard someone say recently that he didn't want a certain movie to be in the concept demo section, since it felt like a downgrade. It has been suggested before that the concept demo area is the section "where movies are published that wouldn't be published under normal rules", or "aren't good enough to be published with the other movies". I think this section is called gruefood, and not concept demos. I also hear lots of people say "vote yes as a concept demo, otherwise no". I think it should just be decided if the movie is published or not, and then it should be obvious, by some rules, if it's a concept demo or not. It is also mentioned that a movie might be harder to locate in the concept demo section, since if you look for a particular movie, you will look at the console section, for that game. It seems, even though this thread is pretty old there is still no definition of what should be in it, and what shouldn't be, which I think adds to the feeling some about the concept demo section. If there is a clear definition of what is a concept demo, I think people might stop looking at the section as being downgrading. I will post here what I think is logical to what is in this section and what isn't. Here are three suggestions:
(1) A maximum of 2 movies of one game in the regular game section: 1 movie which completes the game as fast as possible (any%), and 1 movie which plays the entire game (no warps, or 100%). All other movies of that game go to the concept demo area. (Movie which show a completely different aspect of the game, like zelda second quest shouldn't be in the concept demo section).
(2) If a concept demo is available for a certain game, it might be good if the regular movie description linked to the concept demo/hack. This is for instance done for the SDW 100% run). It willl solve the fact that people won't be able to find these movies.
(3) A movie in the concept demo section must have clear goals, which are open for competition.
What should be in the concept demo section?
- Hacks. I guess this is the "/other" in the name of the section.
- Multiple game runs. Megaman quadrun is already in there, what is keeping the X1+X2 dual from also being added to the concept demo section?
- 2 player runs, if it's slower than the single player run in that same category. If the 2 player run is faster than the single player run in that category, the 2 player run should obsolete the single player run.
- Like point (1) already stated, all runs which aren't any% or full game run. Some examples:
* SMB no B run (slower than any% and not 100%)
* Contra pacifist run (slower than any% and not 100%)
* SMB2 peach only ( " " )
* Monopoly 4CPU
* Battle toads 2 player warples (slower than any% 1 player)
* Metroid no mini boss
* 1-item metroid
* 100% kills gradius 3 (don't know the movies well, but it are just the same levels, with 100% killed, so does not qualify as full game movie... the other movie already shows all levels).
* Minimalist super metroid
* Super Mario World small only
* Probably others
What should not be in the concept demo section?
- Movies that are either any% or full game run. There should be 1 full game run for each game, but it is not always the same... here are some examples:
* Super Metroid any% and 100% (all item collection is here full game run)
* Super Mario World 11 exit and 96 exit (all exits is here full game run)
* Super mario 3 with flute and fluteless (it was decided that the best full game run for this game was fluteless, and not all exit. This means an all exit run should not be made)
* Arkanoid warped and Arkanoid 3 ball powerup only (the warped version completes the game as fast as possible without restrictions, and the 3 ball powerup only was decided to be the best full game run of this game. Since this is the full game run, which shows all levels, it should not be in the concept demo section.)
- Movies which show a different part of the game (for instance with a password). Examples of this are:
* Rockin Kats channel X
* Zelda second quest
* Adventures of lolo 2 pro levels
- Movies which aren't in the regular section at all. A common objection for having your movie in the concept demo section is not being able to find it. Linking to it from the regular movies, like (2) is the solution, but for games that don't have such a regular movie this is not possible, so they should be in the regular section. Examples of this are:
* one track top gear (a full run would include this track though, so it would obsolete it)
* first track F-zero (a full run would include trhis track though, so it would obsolete it)
* wild warp Crystalis (also doesn't have a normal run. A normal run might obsolete it, I'm not sure... the warping method wasn't liked if I recall correctly. Either way, since there is no normal movie right now, it should be in the nes section. If a normal run doesn't obsolete this run, it should still be in the nes section, as the fastest run to complete the game)
- Others?
* Newgame+ chronotrigger (this is the hardest movie for me to judge. Since it's not slower than one of the regular movies, and all other movies in the concept demos are things that slow you down, this might not belong in the concept demo area. It can be considered any% run for an already upgraded character, but I'm not sure. I can be convinced by arguments that it should be in the concept demo section probably).
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Tompa wrote:
What happens if you go "outside the map" in a dungeon?
Baxter wrote:
Well, we shouldn't forget that this glitch only works in the overworld (exept for the rooms we already skipped in the current TAS). Most of the game takes place inside the levels anyway, so it's not like the entire run will be different.
Would be cool though, if a way was found to do it in the levels too.
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Ramzi wrote:
How did you guys find it? By accident, or by fuzz testing?
This is what I think is about the "history" (:P) of the glitch:
1) The key to the glitch is using the arrow keys in a specific direction at exactly the right spot. I think the combination of the basically 1 frame window, with pressing a certain, non logical direction with the arrow keys is the reason why this glitch wasn't discovered yet. Funny thing is that actually, there is no really special stuff like left+right or anything required to do the glitch. Anyway, while working on one of the last rooms at level 9 of the TAS I was making with Phil, I placed a bomb at exactly the right spot. The fact that a bomb was placed made the window of moving into a other direction bigger (since Link is positioned longer on the right spot, because he is busy placing the bomb). Then I accidently walked half a into a solid block.
Here is the movie of how is exactly happened (you will also see how close we were to completing the TAS)
2) I tested right away what exactly caused the glitch. It wasn't really hard to figure out how to reproduce it. The glitch was also possible with bombs, the sword and other weapons, but laying a bomb takes shorter than using a bomb. I tested the glitch on the room below the room where I ran into the glitch, and by using it, it was possible to enter the corridor without killing the enemies. I took the bad news to Phil (and it was bad news, since we were nearly done with the movie), and we had to redo everything from level 5 (since this was the first level with such a room that could be skipped.
Here is the TAS we made after redoing half of the levels.
3) After the TAS had been published, Hanzou mentioned that the glitch was also possible without using a weapon like bombs or sword. This saves the time of placing the bombs, and it saves bombs.
4) Sleepz mentions in the submission thread of the Zelda submission that the glitch can also take you over two blocks if the ladder can be used on those blocks. This enables a new route for level 4 in the first quest (It will also save time at level 6 at the second quest).
5) I wanted to test possibilities with Link crossing blocks using a combination of the glitch and the ladder. The ladder only works for a few places with water at Hyrule overworld. I produced this movie, which walks from bottom to the top of the screen, using the ladder. At the end of walking on the water, I got to the land again, but 1/2 a tile higher than Link normally is. This gave me the idea that the glitch could be used to acces the top of the screen.
Here is the first movie I posted of doing this. I also posted several other movies to test its potential.
6) Up till now, the glitch was only performed vertically. Sleepz found how to do it horizontally too, and created this thread, with a movie which shows some uses of doing the glitch horizontally, in combination of vertically.
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Comicalflop wrote:
HoD is the fastest paced and (IMO) most entertaining of the Castlevania games, I see little reason to limit the number of runs for it. Juste with wall sinking (this submission), Juste without wall sinking (a separate/different improvement to JXQ's run), Maxim with wall sinking (short glitched Maxim run), Maxim without wall sinking (some longer Maxim run that could/should be done). 4 runs, very clear rules for what goes in each run.
Sounds like very unclear, even SDA-like, rules to me. Isn't this site about fastest string of input that can complete the game? I would see reason for a non-glitch run for ALttP, but I don't here. The glitch run is still over 15 minutes long, and is very entertaining (as where for instance ALttP loses a way bigger part of the gameplay, as well as its entertainment (to me, the only entertaining thing about it is the fact that it can be cleared that fast)). So I think this game should have the two versions that are already there, and no more.
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Well, we shouldn't forget that this glitch only works in the overworld (exept for the rooms we already skipped in the current TAS). Most of the game takes place inside the levels anyway, so it's not like the entire run will be different.
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Ah, very nice find! I already suspected it could be done, but I never got it to work (which was due to the fact that I also used the left or right arrow keys in my attempts).
This will save lots and lots of time in a TAS, it might even enable some new routes, especially in second quest.
Edit: My theory/dream of entering level 4 without a raft is still half a tile away :(
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Ren wrote:
Just one question: Why do you take the fairy at the end of level 1? Is it faster than letting the life gauge fill up on its own? Or do you like fairy violence?
Letting the triforce refill the health takes longer.
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Catastrophe wrote:
Baxter never does it, but it is possible to glitch a border that is only 1 tile wide. You don't need to make a quick 90 degree turn within one-half tile of the border. (Which requires two tiles.) Frame 42 of this movie shows another (useless) example.
The coolest part about being able to do the glitch in one tile width is that I should be able to do it in the underworld as I pass through doors! But it doesn't work. I'll try again tonight.
Indeed, I didn't do it in any of the movies I posted, but I did do it in one of the onces I didn't post. I also tried in in the underworld, but it seems like it doesn't work on a distance that big :(. But please keep trying, it would be great if something useful came out of it :)
Catastrophe wrote:
Yeah, this is what I suspected, but very nice to figure it out completely and make a picture that everyone can understand. It for instance explains right away why level 4 unfortunately can't be reached with the glitch.
Edit: btw, here is a fun way to complete the maze in the woods with the glitch (this room is present in the second quest TAS). It is unfortunately about 36 frames slower when playing the first part like this. Going above the screen for the last time Link has to go right does save time.
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Sleepz wrote:
There are places you can cross. Any instance where link can get that extra step while fully within the tile, it can be done. L4 for example, once you have the ladder, go 1 room left, up to the dark room, use the glitch and you can cross over 2 whole tiles of water and straight into the rupee room. 2 less rooms that youre walking through.
Wow, I didn't know that this was possible. I just checked, and you are right! Nice find :)
Sleepz wrote:
You also dont need to use bombs either if youre ever short on them.
Yeah, Hanzou mentioned this to us after the run was published. This, together with the different level 4 route, and some other minor stuff (for instance, at the first room at level 4 where the screen turns black is also possible to take a shorter path with the glitch) are some nice possible improvements to the run. Phil and I already decided we will eventually make a new version, but not anytime soon. We both have some other cool projects at the moment, and some other new improvements might be found. There is no need to rush things.
Here is a movie showing some crazy stuff with the glitch by using the ladder. It doesn't seem useful though, besides the spot Sleepz pointed out, and in level 6 at the second quest. Using the ladder on overworld water is only possible at several rooms, like this one.
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Wow, why didn't they just call this game Prince of Persia? :P
Movie was ok, yes vote from me.
I was wondering though, at 4:12 in the youtube movie, there wasn't enough space to make a slide here?
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snorlax wrote:
Can using a bomb to go through a block be done on a console?
Yes, it is possible, it are just normal buttons that are pressed (not left+right or something)... but you have to react on one exact frame (where link is on exactly the right position), if you are one frame early, or one frame late, link will not have the right position, and it will fail. If you get the right frame, you still need great reflexes to turn twice. I think it's certainly possible to do on a console, but it would require a great deal of luck, so I don't think it would be useful in a regular speedrun.
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Sorry if this was mentioned before, didn't really read the whole thread, but if you press "watch" at the cheat menu, without having a RAM adress selected, the emulator crashes.
