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That's really disappointing to hear that Inichi's run doesn't technically work. It's like learning the truth about the tooth fairy.
I voted yes because I appreciate the technical achievement. Inichi's run was way more entertaining, but if it doesn't work without 2-frame saves, then oh well. We have to go with the valid run. Also, I approve of listing Inichi as a co-author. As I remember it he basically said "When sub-frame resets exist, this is how you do it." And it's been done pretty much to his specifications.
I think the "problem" with these credits-only runs is that it doesn't really feel like the game was conquered. In a lot of modern games you can view the credits straight from the title screen. The problem should be fixed by choosing better goals. Rather than "fastest time to credits" the goal should be to begin the final battle and reduce the boss to 0 hp instead. Or save the princess. Or skip to the last level and beat that. Inichi's 22 minute run beat Lavos, but this one doesn't.
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11/10 technical rating. And I actually watched this for about 20 minutes. I voted yes. I don't recommend sitting through all 45 minutes, but watching it for at least 10 minutes is entertaining. And technically good + entertained = yes vote.
It's weird that the whole movie is boring while any random segment of it is exciting. But I guess that's just how it is.
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I voted yes for the cancelled submission, so this is an easy yes.
- You saved 10 minutes!
- You added sword making to the run, which is a major feature of the game.
Normally I wouldn't vote without watching an encode or the actual run, but I think this is okay. I watched every minute of the last one. Maybe I'll see it when it's published?
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Easy yes vote. This game took me at least 8 hours (just for Momohime) and to see it done in 75 minutes in incredible. Yeah, it's a lot of running, but some random encounters are fought, and fought well. And of course the boss fights are amazing!
If this run is rejected for having too much walking around then no AAA game from the last or current gen has any chance of being accepted. Games have gotten longer and more repetitive in the last 10 years. This is what every genre is going to look like. If you don't enjoy watching 55 minutes of pretty backgrounds and 20 minutes of optimized ninja fighting then stick to the SNES and DS where the games are shorter.
I remember playing this game and thinking to myself "this is going to make a great TAS someday." This site has published movies of RPGs over 3 hours in length which are also nothing but walking around and managing random encounters. This is much shorter (bonus) and prettier.
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Saethori wrote:
when I hear about data being corrupted, it brings more to mind the runs that corrupt save data, such as Pokémon Yellow or Chrono Trigger, which cause very serious damage to the game's structure to accomplish its goals.
I think this run seriously damaged SMW's structure, too. There is no glitch in SMW which will show the credits early. There is however a glitch which will let you execute any code which you can point to, and the player used that glitch to set the current game mode to "0x1C - run thank you cutscene".
Victory in any game can be measured in terms of RAM. For example, in SMW victory could be defined as "fastest time to a value of $26 in $7E:0100". That gives us a nice quantitative frame number to stop timing on rather than "input end" or "The End". (Although I like movies which creatively end input early!) Authors who submit runs with memory manipulation should probably state their goal this way instead of "reaches the ending" so that obsoletion can be more obvious. (Does this run not reach the ending because there are no fireworks with Peach?)
If victory is defined as setting up a specific game state then I think I can explain why this run's category was controversial when this site has many similar runs.
type 1 glitches: walking out of bounds in LttP or A Boy and His Blob, the debug menu in Earthbound, and spawning the end-of-level object in SMW and Megaman 1. These moves are in the official game rules. (And are usually patched out in remakes.)
type 2 glitches: intentionally corrupting your save file in Chrono Trigger, the sketch glitch in FF6, "take glasses" in Shadowgate, the current Six Golden Coins run, and the bottle glitch in OoT. It's not like there's a glitch in OoT which gives you credit for beating dungeons just by waving your bottles around. The glitch is that RAM can be in-explicitly written to at all. The exact application is up to the player. (And we calculate the result to great effect.)
type 3 glitches: manipulating not memory, but the execution of the game. Now you're basically reprogramming the game. Has any other run done this before this one?
The reason for a new category, I think, is because this run doesn't feel legit. It doesn't just use glitched game moves to reach the ending. The path to victory that this run chose did not exist when the game was powered on. I like the idea of putting these runs in a separate "corrupts RAM" category. Now the question is do you reclassify every run which uses a "type 2" glitch as corrupts RAM, or is this category reserved for runs which hack the stack? (My two cents - the former.) And runs which are submitted for the "corrupts RAM" category need quantitative goals since the nature of RAM corruption makes lots of game states instantly possible.
(Carefully defining goals is important. The current A Boy and His Blob run does not end "at the credits", and I agree with how the author chose to define "the ending" there.)
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Yes vote! I also didn't know that this game existed. And I thought I knew every game that IGA contributed to. I guess not. Copyright 2001? This game came out laaaate!
The best way to explain my enthusiasm for this run is to repeat what I said to myself while I was watching it. I read this thread first, then watched the encode.
"Oooh, pretty."
"He's gonna get hit! Ah, nope."
"Clever."
"The bosses sure take a lot of damage quickly when TASed, but that's normal."
"All this dance music is kind of inappropriate for a CV game, but it's good!"
"How did he not get hit there?"
"Or there!"
"Man, how many artists worked on this game?"
"Holy shit level 15 already?? Where'd the time go?"
"Does this game have a soundtrack?"
"This game was definitely designed by a huge Castlevania fan. Who else would think of that?" (I didn't suspect that it was an IGA game yet. Which is shocking in hindsight.)
"Okay, playing Simon's Theme for the final level is pretty badass."
"Credits! I'm looking forward to these for once." (Really.)
PRODUCER
IGA
Whoa! :O
But that explains a lot.
Character Design Illustration
Ayami Kojima
Expected, but still noteworthy.
Music and Arrangement
>>>> Sota Fujimori <<<<
Hiroshi Iizuka
\o/
\o/
*facepalm* wow...
1. That explains everything. Who else would turn in an album of dance music for a Castlevania game? (Where Sota's brain should be, there's a synthesizer.)
2. For once I listed to some techno, loved it, then learned that it was Sota. Usually it's the other way around.
As for the timer, I'm not worried about it. It's a classic CV game after all. It doesn't take up that much time, PSX games surely don't hex well yet, and arguably it should be left in. The author took enough care to waste the hearts at the end of each stage. I don't think that future improvements should be allowed to count the time saved by disabling the timer.
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The Levan Polka (as made famous by Vocaloid) was in the middle. Which is why I say that I would recognize more, but I don't actually know them. I really liked the Nico Nico Douga, but I didn't know 2/3rds of those songs. So if the author of this TAS picked other famous songs from Internet culture, they'd go right over my head.
This is actually kind of like a Brain Age challenge in itself. You have to listen to one song (Home on the Range) and mentally subtract one song from another.
The piano part still needs to be redone so that the hard work is more obvious.
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The piano part actually played several songs, just really really fast. On my first watch I picked out two. The author was probably going for as-fast-as-possible-and-still-recognizable. (And failed.) Actually, I think I recognized more than two songs, I just don't know what they are.
But if I'm the only one who doesn't think it's noise then it should be redone.
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Is there enough time to beat SMB1 twice? The changes of the second "loop" around probably won't affect the TAS. But it would be pretty badass to claim that this movie beats 4 different Mario games a total of 5 times in 10 minutes.
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I was talking about the map glitch. The one where you mash A as you turn the corner between Jungle Hijinx and Ropey Rampage and get warped to the middle of Orang-utan Gang. It feels like the corner dot counts as a level, and that entering this fake level sends you to exit 0x71. (Or 0x72, 73, 74, or 75. Whichever.) I was asking, why does that glitch work? And can the destination exit be manipulated?
I don't think the map glitch is an intentional cheat to help the testers skip farther ahead in the game. The timing is VERY precise. This glitch seems more like "Oh hey, the Kongs paused for a moment, therefore they're on a level marker right?"
My point is, you actually warp twice. Once to 0x71 (partway through OG) and then again to 0x05 (partway through MM). DKC fans have been taking the original warp for granted ever since Nintendo Power published it. What's up with that? Are two warps necessary?
-----------------------------
Unrelated - I love all the AFD submissions. It's like, for one day and one day only, everyone loosen your inhibitions and be creative and entertaining!
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That's nuts that only Orang-utan Gang can setup the glitch, and that's the level that the map glitch just happens to drop you into! Great explanation of it. Thanks.
So does the map glitch send you to one of the exits 0x6F to 0x75? I wonder where it pulls that value from? Is it constant, or can it be manipulated?
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Now that the encode has been published, I'd like to upgrade my yes to a serious yes. Why not publish this? It's clever, it's well made, and it doesn't ask much of your time.
(I've played fewer than 10 hours of NetHack in my life. I never knew that touching artifacts could damage you.)
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Voting best 4/1 TAS of 2011.
Each of these really needs to have their own encode ready to go. But since this run is under 2 seconds anyway I'll just open a command prompt and close it. There. I'm entertained.
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It works with 1.51 svn147. And I can't believe it's a real submission.
DKC has a list of objects in memory: enemies, barrels, doors, movable objects, etc. Everything that's not terrain basically. Many glitches are done by corrupting that list. The easiest way to corrupt the list is to destroy an object in a weird way. (Castle Crush, or the glitch with an ant waking up and flipping over, for example.) The setup for this is really long. I don't know what it's doing.
1. Throw a DK barrel with only one Kong, but cancel the level before it breaks.
2. Die off-screen, but not by falling off the screen.
I'd imagine that this is what makes Diddy appear out of nowhere later. But maybe not. Next, the warp to Orangutan Gang is normal. Then:
3. Stack a steel barrel and Ostro so that you're carrying the barrel while riding Ostro. I guess that works like carrying a key while riding Yoshi in SMW? Just get them on top of each other and press Y? I've never seen it before.
4. When Ostro collides with the save barrel he drops the steel barrel. That's not supposed to happen since animal buddies can't carry objects. The barrel falls away and probably corrupts memory somewhere since it isn't destroyed properly.
5. Enter the bonus room. Exit by the bonus room in Maniac Mincers. (fine)
The weird part, I mean the even weirder part, is 4b. Right before leaving the bonus room Tompa breaks a DK barrel. Now he finally truly has both Kongs rather than "almost having Diddy" like he did in step 2. But when he enters Manic Mincers he has just Diddy! I know why Ostro is still there, but where'd Donkey go? Maybe using the weird warp normally erases Donkey?
Yes vote. And since no one mentioned it, yes vote for Tompa's choice of when to end input. In this case it's funny.
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After I finished my run I tested the equip-anything glitch pretty extensively on the Japanese version. I'd rather make a movie in English, but I figured I could make the movie more interesting with captions. The non-battle text is barely legible, anyway.
My testing procedure was this:
1. Make a savestate right outside of Narshe, one step from a random battle.
2. For each item 0-255:
2a. Is this item something that Terra could normally equip? If so, next item.
2b. Hack it into Terra's weapon slot.
2c. Step once. Battle.
2d. Attack with Terra and observe.
2e. Next item.
The plan was, if I found anything useful, I'd figure out how to get that item later. Most items did nothing or produced a normal effect. A couple items produced graphics glitches, but nothing that could have in any way corrupted memory. Or so I thought.
What I didn't test for though, was what you just did. I never tried attacking with each item while a submenu was open. Nor did I test any of them with a full party of 4 members. I did test every item against a few different monster formations, but I probably never found anything useful or else I would've made a new run. And since I was testing from a fresh save file at the start of the game, I probably did all of my tests against mould 1. The glitch that I was looking for is probably still out there.
I can pretty easily guess why using an X-Potion (0xEA) from the spell menu would "cast" BabaBreath (0xEA). I bet a Crystal would cast Ultima. I can't help you on the Goggles thing though. It's probably just a bad animation script, which is going to have results specific to each version. You may as well just test every possible item and go with whatever works. It sounds like a pain, but it's not so bad.
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Posting for the first time in a long time to say: YES! And I know it's late. I watched this movie with low expectations but about 4 minutes in I thought this game awesome.
- Yeah, no Thriller was missed opportunity. I'm sure they thought of it. Maybe it was too hard to program? Actually, what year was Thriller written?
- Weird Al popped into my mind once during Beat It. Thank you one person.
- There is nothing remotely sexual about this game. You guys are trying too hard.
- Is the ending bugged? Someone inspect the ROM. Because it just kind of...
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Good news. Leveling up everywhere is totally irrelevant. That means all I need to do is get to each boss as fast as possible. I'm sure of this because every level up between 10 and 15 was adding 5 damage to my Death Ring + Agony boosted lightsaber attacks, and just one damage to random enemies. Also, Minera Prison Island is the last map where I'll be able to kill anything. Shortly after that it'll be impractical to kill stubborn enemies even if I'd rather save HP for Agony. This means that I shouldn't pick up any weapon that I don't use on a boss, like the Axe. And especially not axe level 1. (Yeah, yeah, "We told you so". That's fine. I deserve it.)
So I tested the Death Ring. :D Of course it rocked!
Lv 10 lightsaber = 108
Lv 10 LS + Agony = 563
Lv 10 LS + Death Ring = 563
Lv 10 LS + Agony + Death Ring = 866! HOO-ray!
Needing only 12 swings (11.3) to kill Dracula is a huge boost. That's also with no Wind Ring. It's very likely now that I'll be able to kill Eligor and Blackmore with just hearts and save the refreshes for Dracula. Blackmore has high HP, but a double weakness to the lightsaber. Eligor has only 3000 HP, but both a weakness and a resistance. I don't know how that will work. I need to see if I can double jump (or triple jump) and swing at his head without going through his script. Everyone else is just whackwhackwhackwhack dead, except Wallman who is just dead. If I need a maximum heart capacity of 120 to be able to swing 8 times then I only need 7 heart MAX UPs, which is also great. I might be able to skip the one in the Monastery. (Cue another "We told you so.")
All 6 of my Ticket opportunities do work. I went back to check, and I can ticket my way out of all 6 rooms just fine. In Ecclesia I have to walk through the boss door first. I probably panicked earlier and forgot to absorb Dominus.
Using Volaticus on Dracula is like taunting him. Dracula's first phase consists of him doing but teleporting and shooting fireballs at you. (Like Gannondorf, except he doesn't turn into a giant mutant for the final round. Oh wait.) But if you activate Volaticus he will immediately cancel his attack (!) and purple flames will shoot from ceiling to floor for massive damage. It's that silly. Then Dracula teleports away faster than usual. The developers hate Volaticus. It's the dumbest glyph in the whole game. By the time you get it your map percentage is like 99.2% and they specifically ban it from the only optional map where it would be useful. It's only needed in 1 required place and 1 optional place. And since you can't use Volaticus on Dracula I don't know why it even exists. Perhaps for backtracking? It's still a waste of something so potentially cool.
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My version of Desmume says that it was built on April 30th. I need the version that was built on May 8th to play arukAdo's current PoR submission. I'd also like to prevent potential desynchs with anything I might work on.
There's some difference between 0.9.2 and 0.9.2-1 that causes a desynch in both PoR and OoE. The desynch happens when a run recorded in 0.9.2-1 steps on a piece of sloped terrain. From that moment on the run is positively guaranteed to desynch in 0.9.2. Which fine, since everyone should upgrade anyway. But that's exactly my problem. I did download the source and I can compile it (I haven't tried) but I was hoping for an easy link.
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arukAdo wrote:
Yeah you have no other choice but to start from zero sram for now
I beated up castlevania Portrait Of Ruin but considering whe cant include sram for now, it mean its not possible to tas the secondary modes, sisters, maria&richter, or simply boss rush, even if my movie gets accepted and that its valid to unlock them, its not possible atm
If that's all that's stopping you, maybe do this?
- Resume recording your movie.
- Write down the exact frame you press L+R+start+select. Or, watch the credits, press start, and pick an arbitrary frame to begin input on the title screen.
- Do it all in one movie file.
- When you submit it, claim that only a certain range of frames count. And the encoder should be able to easily omit your previous run at the same time he/she puts the watermark at the start of the video.
Because I'd love to see a tool assisted sisters run!
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All at once:
I changed my mind and I'm not going to go for the boss medals. The first boss I thought I was losing just 8 frames (one rapier stab) to save 5 MP for Magnes. It turns out I also lose a bit more time while setting myself up for another combo. Later bosses I'm not going to be hit because I'll be using Dominus Agony, so maybe I'll get a few by coincidence.
The Death Ring! How did I forget to test that? That's my favorite item in the game. I found it on my first playthrough and I loved the description. It sounds like a blessing, but it's really a curse. I didn't fall for it because the huge bonus was a giveaway. But I hope someone out there thought "OH BOY!", equipped it, and lost 15 minutes of progress. (The item description is "Hits may cause instant death." Evil designers.)
I was testing more random crap, and I discovered that I couldn't use a Ticket after I killed Albus. The game forced me to walk out of the mansion for no good reason. It's as if they locked the Tickets while you're fighting the boss (normal) but then forgot to unlock it afterwards? Lame. So that beings my Ticket count down to 5. I better test my other Ticket opportunities, too.
I tested my proposed Volaticus skip with the cat morph because of its Y button move. Before I figured out to unmorph and sleeve over to Rapidus Fio in midair I was actually doing: morph+jump, Y button for great distance, unmorph right before I drop too far, and double jump with Shanoa for height. But it wasn't good enough. The machine morph I ignored. The bat I assumed would work just the same as the cat when it comes to jumping and unmorphing in mid air. But you never know. I might as well test it.
Did anyone else test Dracula and notice that normal weapons wouldn't hurt him? Yes, he is Dracula after all. But how would you win hard mode with a level cap of 1? I've only played Shanoa's game twice with my thumbs and neither was a hard mode game. Anyway, while I was testing Dracula, I definitely intended to test glyph unions versus just hacking away at him. But hammer level 3 passed right through him. So did Nitesco+Nitesco. And I'm sure that when I played the game with my thumbs that I used those against him. So I thought I was just too low of a level? Maybe my attack stat had to be higher. So I leveled up to 13 and my attacks were still passing through him. Is this a normal feature of the game? (EDIT: Figured it out. Hit his head. Duh. Which means that both he and Eligor basically can't be comboed.)
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Testing this stuff at Dracula is no problem. Since I'm apparently bad at counting (counting frames, counting damage) I'll share my methodology so that someone else can do it right.
Start a new game. Poke 100388 with 0xFE to skip the tutorial. Now poke 1003CC - 1003D0 with 0xFF to unlock the complete map. Enter Dracula's Castle. Notice that the cutscene won't play. That's because the programmers are major jerks who are working very hard to prevent even minor sequence breaking. Walk back left and poke 100147 with 0x30 to gain the map percentage for the Final Approach. Warp there and fly to Dracula. Set everything in the range of 1003EA-437 to 0x99 to gain every glyph. Might as well set 45E-548 to 0x99 to gain 9 of each item, too. Now you're ready to test different equipment setups against Dracula at level 1.
Except when you walk in, the throne room is empty, and the door locks behind you. You're trapped. This isn't what happens to pirated games, it's what happens when you sequence break. Dracula will only appear if 38C = 0x11. (It's the 0x10 bit that matters.) This bit is set by the cutscene that plays when you use the Custos glyphs. However, using the Custos glyphs will have no effect unless 38C = 0x01. What sets that? The cutscene that plays when you enter the castle. But the cutscene won't play unless 38B has 0x08 set, which is set by Barlowe's death scene. If 0x02 is set then Barlowe will attack you, but that's only set when you kill Albus with all the villagers. So basically, we're never going to be able to sequence break in this game. Not unless a memory corruption glitch can hit these event flags. So just poke 10038C with 0x11 and start testing Dracula.
Level 1 Shonoa, no equipment, attributes = 40/50/10/10/10/10/10
(Watch 10D308 for Dracula's HP. He really does have 9999 HP and you need to deal all of it.)
Lightsaber = 65 damage
LS + Dominus Agony = 518 damage!
LS + Arma Custos = 68
LS + Arma Custos with hp = 1/128 = 86
LS + Arma Custos with hp = 1/512 = 86
LS + Red Drops = 65
LS + Red Drops + Agony = 522
LS + 2x Red Drops + Agony = 528
LS + Diamond Ring = 68
LS + Diamond Ring + Agony = 549
Axe/Scythe/Sword/etc Union = 65
same union + Agony = 255
Okie dokie. So Agony wins. It wins by so much that it's faster to stop and drink potions and tea during the fight. The red drops are worthless, which surprised me. I guess when you have 50,000 attribute points it makes a huge difference in your boss rush time. But 1,000 not so much. And 30... well I didn't know what the formula was or how big the effect would be until now. I had to test it.
Level 10 Shanoa, same atts and no equipment
LS = 108
LS + Agony = 563
LS + Agony + Red Drops = 569
LS + Agony + 2x Red Drops = 575
Level 13 is 578 damage with no drops. That seems good compared to 518 at level 1. Here are the breakpoints for how much damage I need to do to save myself a whole swing. Saving a fraction of a swing is probably useless.
625 damage/swing = 16 hits
588 damage/swing = 17 hits (do the last 3 damage with Dominus Hatred)
555 damage/swing = 18 hits
The required fights in this game are only going to take me up to level 8 or so. Which means I need 18 glyph unions for Dracula. Heart Refreshes are worth 2, MAX UPs are worth 2/3rds each, and I start with 3 1/3. Which means I need to work harder to get 2 HRs out of the Monastery. I tested over 30 frames last time to find the optimal frame with a HR and a Ticket. (Of course, it was the 2nd or 3rd frame.) Hopefully my luck is different in the remake and I can manipulate an insane two HRs.
I started calculating the DPS of each weapon measured over a two MP bar period. But then I realized that my calculations are thrown off as Shonoa levels up and gains a larger bar. With enough MP a slow and powerful weapon might overtake the rapier at a higher level. I'll probably just calculate the DPS for each boss I face as I meet them since I need to take their weaknesses into account as well.
I am *this* close to skipping Volaticus. I used my triple jump with a backhop and the cat morph to get started. Then I unmorphed in midair, sleeved over to Rapidus Fio, and did a double jump. And I was just pixels away from landing on the top of the stairs. Some cooldown timer was preventing me from activating Rapidus Fio early enough. I'll try again later.
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Atma wrote:
I was goign to write up a reasonably long post replying to most of the things you pointed towards Catastrophe, but I don't think I can do it without coming off as an arrogant asshole, mostly due to a lack of direct response to each individual argument/counterpoint of which there are a lot. A single line I will take from what I wrote though and say here:
If this is your plan, you've got a hellish task ahead of you.
I can't tell if you're talking to me, or Acheron86. It sounds like you're telling Acheron86 that he's dead wrong: that there will be frame wars, that this game is SM64, and that obsoletions will be made over trivial things. Which I totally agree with. I'm looking forward to it. But then you tell who that they've got a hellish task ahead? Yes, I am testing every enemy. My testing was clearly flawed, but testing every enemy is the responsible thing to do. Hellish is irrelevant. I thought this is how much work TASing a platformer was supposed to be?
arukAdo - It's not going to be an art thing. I think "sacrifices frames for entertainment" is more of a special occasion thing, like getting the boss medal or the Book of Secrets. I never intended to sacrifice frames on each enemy to make it look smooth. It was more of a question of what you (specifically you, Atma, and the rest of the audience) want to see out of this run. If I didn't care what you thought, I wouldn't ask.
I'm not trying to excuse the way I handled certain enemies. There are definite mistakes there. I'm trying to say that if I do it again, that it'll be for a good reason. Now if I'm wrong twice then I'm probably just a shitty TASer or something. But I also don't want to "fix" the mistakes that you pointed out by doing something different in my next version. Doing something different just to impress you with "look! I improved!" is wrong too. What if I come back with good proof that level 2 really is faster? I don't expect that I will. Just saying.