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Silly me, I thought "refills" only gave you a single bomb :) Thanks, that clears some things up.
Tompa, I don't have any private messages from anybody at all, so I don't know what happened... I hardly use MSN anymore, (I've got a different email I use most of the time) but I'll try sending you a private message with my MSN address. If it can't get through, I'll just edit this post.
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I redid most of the second dungeon to fix the errors Tompa pointed out. This run goes up to the shop, 462 frames (~7.5 seconds) faster than the old version. 91 frames were gained in the part between the 2nd dungeon and the shop, probably from more precise jumping, jumping diagonally, and saving a menu switch right before the town (thanks, spockybiemmichab!).
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1433/Testrun3.vbm
I'll use Tompa's bomb trick whenever I can... I wonder if time could be saved placing a bomb to open a cracked wall (using l/r) from a distance...
Edit: From the looks of Tompa's bomb/arrow counts, I will need to have about 50 bombs and arrows throughout the game. (although I'm not sure if you really meant that 20 or 21 bombs are needed for dungeon 6... could you clarify? I could just look at your run, though :) At my initial starting maxima of 20 bombs and 20 arrows, even serious backtracks to get extra bombs/arrows seems impossible. So, I'm planning to visit both of the bats that increase your carrying capacity. Right after dungeon 2 would be fine for the first bat, and I wanted to run that idea by before I once again get too deep and find out I have to redo a major part of the run, hehe.
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I don't think enemies can drop anything but hearts and rupees. Although rupees are relatively common, and hearts less so (I've hardly seen any in the making of my run), I've never seen bombs/arrows drop in my experience. Unless somebody can prove me otherwise?
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Tompa wrote:
Will you redo nearly everything to save these frames or will you stick to what you have?
I remember seeing you comment on this around when I first came to the forums, so generally I tried to use the feather to go diagonally relatively often. Of course, I wasn't really considering all the places it was possible, but I think I did for the most part. Just note that it is only faster when trying to get somewhere diagonal to your position; jumping diagonally back and forth as you move forward won't get you forward any faster, as far as I can tell.
Like this: (going from the o's to the x)
---------o
----------
----------
x--------- jumping here is faster than walking
o------------
---o---------
o------------
---o---------
x------------ jumping reaches the x at the same time walking will
About dungeon 2, I discovered that I took one more key than I needed to. The key in the room with the floating powder and up/down blocks wasted the most time, so I redid that part. Up to the miniboss, I am now 345 frames (6.75 seconds) faster from this and the other optimizations.
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Tompa wrote:
I see some improvements in dungeon 2. In the beginning when collecting the first key. Why don't you start charge your sword and kill the enemies that way?
Mistake, I didn't think I had time to charge the sword, but I have now fixed this.
Tompa wrote:
Also, when walking in the underground to the mini boss. Your jump on the second platform could be better. You touched the wall on the way up to the ladder, you can easily avoid it by jumping earlier.
Another mistake, this time I erroneously believed that your 2D jump distance depended on being stationary, so I would move backwards for a frame and my jumps would mysteriously get longer... I later found out that it depends on how long you hold the jump button. This has also been fixed.
Tompa wrote:
It is possible to kill the Bomb Guy holding the first leaf on the first try. There is a video of it on TSA's site. http://www.thehylia.com/la_tt.shtml I'm not able to watch it... But hopefully you can.
Interesting... would bomb arrows be even more efficient? I should test this.
Tompa wrote:
You can take the second leaf during the fall. So you can take it from the top of the screen if you like.
I'm not sure what you mean here... you mean I can pick it up in midair using the feather?
Tompa wrote:
And for the Ball and Chain enemy, you only need regular arrows for it. Bombarrow is a waste of bombs, hehe. I did the same mistakes in my 100% Testrun :D.
Yeah, but bombarrows look cooler :) I guess this answers my above question.
Tompa wrote:
Good job though! But still I have one little question... Can you check if it is faster to jump diogonally than walking diogonally? I've tried to tell everyone that it is faster, but noone cares. PLEASE! :D
You'll be happy, I've just done some testing (the times are about +/- 1-2 frames):
Single diagonal jump: 36 frames
Diagonal run to same location: 45 frames
Triple diagonal jump: 107 frames
Diagonal run to same location: 137 frames
Single horizontal jump: 37 frames
Horizontal walk to same location: 37 frames
Triple horizontal jump: 107 frames
Walk to same location: 107 frames
What this seems to indicate is that diagonally jumping is significantly faster, in terms of frames, than just walking. Horizontal jumping doesn't save any time, but this is also proof that horizontal walking should be avoided as much as possible when you can either jump or just take a horiz/vert route.
Tompa wrote:
EDIT: Is it possible to use L/R to take the Ball and Chain leaf from the left? That would save time...
I haven't had much luck with L/R in other places, but I'll test this, of course.
And on another subject, I am currently planning on buying 20 bombs instead of 10 at the shop, since I suspect they'll be used in more than 10 different places (not counting the bombs you can pick up in dungeons). Also note that once I grab the bombs from the shop, I can never go back (result of stealing the bow), so I need to have bombs correctly planned out. On the other hand, I also need arrws, and I'm stuck with the 20 you start with. In some of the timesavers above (the mole guy and the ball/chain guy), I'm not wasting bombs anymore, but I am wasting arrows. This is going to take a lot of planning...
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Here's the newest version up to dungeon 3:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1399/To%203rd%20Dungeon.vbm
I found a glitch (not in the video); if you dig up the slime key and jump over it so that it follows you to the next overworld screen, you'll collect it, but the "collected a golden leaf" text will come up instead of the slime key text. The text would have been the same length in either case, so I was considering leaving it in, but the slime key you "pick up" in this manner doesn't work, even though it shows up in your inventory as the slime key :(
Oh well, enjoy the progress on the run!
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I think you're talking about text skipping. In the original version, you can press B to skip some texts. I also tested ABSs on every frame possible when picking up trading sequence items, and the text box still came up as usual in the DX version. So it seems that only text boxes from chests can be skipped via ABSs in the DX version. But it's good that you're bringing possible time savers like this up.
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It might be possible with the moblin boss... are you referring to the crocodile you get the bananas from? I tested ABSs on the trading sequence items, and what tends to happen is that Link goes into a "can't do ABSs" state for the entire time... It's sort of like how you can't skip the sword text, when picking up the sword from the beach, and even have to wait for the music before you can ABSs your way out. I didn't test this thoroughly, though, so maybe time could be saved in other places...
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spockybiemmichab wrote:
Ok, thanks for explanation.
Very nice update. I was impressed by nearly every single jump. :) The PoP was really good. But did you consider that it could save more time in the "open field" or if you get it right at the beginning of dungeon 2? But maybe I underestimate the time gained by fighting the moblin boss this way...
Anyway, keep up this kind of quality!
Well, not getting the piece of power means the boss charges a second time, more than doubling the length of the battle. I would estimate that 6-7 seconds are saved taking the PoP in the moblin's cave. It would be very difficult to get the PoP before the cave (I would have to kill at least 8-10 different enemies for it to make a difference), and I'm not sure that taking it after would make up the 6-7 seconds. But thanks for the feedback!
Edit: And by the way, spin-attacking the Tail Cave miniboss for the first hit, but regular-slashing the boss for the first hit, saved 16 frames. Evidently, spin-attacking the boss takes too long to set up for the time gained.
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Latest version up to 2nd dungeon:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1380/To%202nd%20dungeon.vbm
I was very happy to get a piece of power in the moblin's cave, I had just been killing as many enemies as I could reach in the forest, and it worked out perfectly; even the position of the piece was almost perfect.
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spockybiemmichab wrote:
Very, very nice.
Just one thing: In the "long" room before the feather you go up some pixels and short after you go down again. Any reason? Actually I don't care about that...
I didn't see any places where I specifically moved down, but maybe you're referring to one of two places. If you're referring to the diagonal block room with the mini-blobs, I hesitate to manipulate the blob slightly downward (otherwise he'll jump into me when I pass by). If you're referring to the part where I go around the (I guess) "slicer" pieces trap, I need to go around, otherwise the trap will kill me in one hit. I just looked at this, by the way, and the difference in life levels (between this run and previous runs) is the result of me mysteriously gaining health at the chest with the tail key.
spockybiemmichab wrote:
And did you check if it's possible to collect the instument like you collected the sword?
I tried several positions with left-right and couldn't pick it up. I also couldn't pick up the heart from the boss with left-right even when the spacing and locations were exactly the same as when I picked up the sword. I don't really understand the glitch very well...
By the way, I redid the boss battles with a spin attack at the beginning of each of them. However, I somehow collected the instrument on the exact same frame, which means that the two routes were equal for me. And no, I'm not comparing two copies of the same run. Either the time saved from using the spin attack is offset by the difficulty in setting up a position, or it's faster on the miniboss and slower on the boss. Anyway, this whole deal is rather confusing :)
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Wow, one of my favorite games... and I never thought about a TAS for it! This is a great idea. 100% should be the way to go, since it doesn't take that much time to collect the presents in each level.
I noticed a few places where your route could be changed to save time or add points (not to be critical of your run already, of course:) ). I played this game quite a bit when it first came out... I'll have to check my scores sometime.
Maybe when I have the time, I'll make a quick video of the route changes (or ideas) I'm talking about, maybe tomorrow. Great job so far, though!
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Latest version, through dungeon 1:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1371/Through%201st%20dungeon.vbm
I still hate the bosses, they're a pain to optimize... but this run is now 1342 frames faster than the previous version (142 gained in the dungeon = 2.3 seconds). Again, everyone, thanks for the help so far.
Next stop is trading for the bananas... then the Moblin's cave.
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Okay, here's the newest version up to the beginning of Tail cave:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1362/Testrun3.vbm
I spent a lot of time extensively testing whether bumping off enemies was faster or not. In general it was faster, but other times the increased speed from bumping wasn't enough to offset the frames lost by turning around to bump the enemy. For example, I tried for an hour and couldn't find a way to bump off the octorok that saved time (the one that Maur bumps on his route). My "best" bump was ~3 frames slower than just walking, and getting hurt and boosting off the enemy was still a frame slower. Oh well...
Testrun 2 entered the Tail Cave at frame 20606. The newest version enters at frame 19406 (1200 frames = 20 seconds faster!) Most of the time saved came from skipping the first owl speech (via left/right glitch) and more precise movement (almost no bumping into walls in this version). I would appreciate it if anybody could tell me where else to use the left/right to pick up items and other things... like if it's possible to pick up an instrument without running up the stairs.
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Okay, I just watched hero of the day's movie, and I want to know whether people here want me to try and use the left-right glitch to save time in the TAS. In the black and white version, I think a TAS would aim for "no glitches" as part of the requirements (to differentiate from the other movie), but I'm not so sure with the DX version...
In case anybody wonders, I downloaded the movie on a different computer.
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Maur wrote:
Can anybody get across this pit without the feather?
The only way I've been able to cross pits is by the damage-boosting trick. At best, you could make it about 3/4 of the way across that pit before it "sucks" you in. Otherwise it would save a few seconds...
Tompa wrote:
Nice done Chef! One thing you shall think about during the run: Try to have a Piece of Power route. Slay a lot of enemies so you will have the PoP in the start os as many dungeons as possible. That will save a lot of time.
I will definately consider this. First place to set it up would be in and right after the tail cave, since it's a long trek to the moblin cave. Having the feather means that you can swing your sword in midair and never slow down, so I can set up further piece of power counts more easily.
Anybody know if bosses count for the Piece of Power "killed" total?
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Maur wrote:
However, I pick it up at frame 4881 while you pick it up at 5013.
Okay, I just did a check of where I could have lost those frames (132 by your count). Here's what I found (based on several points of comparison):
1) 15 frames behind at the title screen. I know I used a longer name, but I could have lost a frame or two bypassing the screens... you never know.
2) 75 frames behind (60 more) upon leaving Marin's house. I found that in the DX version, there's one extra line of text for getting the shield: "You can use it to flip enemies" vs. "hold the button and repel [here there's a text scroll] enemies." I may have lost a few frames in my position when talking to Tarin, but it's hard to tell.
3) 123 frames behind (48 more) when scrolling the screen out of the "bow-wow" map square. This was due to your clever use of bow-wow (good trick, btw) to push you through the grass (which I did use once in the newest run).
4) 125 frames behind (2 more) when jumping off the first ledge, but this is insignificant.
5) 133 frames behind (8 more), which roughly corresponds with your frame counts above, when pushing the second "spiny." Again, this was a result of bumping off an octorok with the shield.
So basically, I lost the most from the "bumping enemies" trick, and from an extra line of text (which I can't control in the DX version anyway), but I still optimized the route pretty well.
Thanks for the input, everybody; now what about the rest of the testrun? Comments? Criticisms? Line after line of praise? :) I want to try and optimize this first part before I get too deep and have to redo too much...
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I'm really sorry to bother you again, but I can't use .rar files (as far as I can tell), so can you put it on rapidshare or similar directly?
Anyway, here's a new run through the first dungeon, ~4000 frames (about 1 minute) faster than the previous run:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1349/Testrun2.vbm
Thanks for all the tips so far!
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Could somebody host Tompa's video at Rapidshare or some other hosting website?
Comparison of routes by order of events:
1) Sword, warp to bow-wow's house, 50 rupees from chest, boost across pit in forest, get tail key, play trendy game for powder and doll, trade through dog food, finish 1st dungeon.
2) Sword, manipulate 10 rupees from enemies, trendy game to get 30 rupees, powder, doll, trade through dog food, tail key, 1st dungeon.
Direct comparison:
I take ~23700 frames to reach the first dungeon (in the DX version). Using Graveworm's route in the original version, I reached the first dungeon in ~20000 frames (accomplishing the same tasks). However, the orig. version can skip text, and I could save a good amount of time from the start/select trick. I don't think this would make up almost 4000 frames, though, so Graveworm's route would probably be best. I'll have to check if the pit-boosting trick is possible (although it most likely is).
On a side note, would it be reasonable to get a game over on purpose? I would like to just steal the bombs, shovel, and bow from the shop without paying if it would save time (more rupees for buying ocarina songs and so on).
I'm open to tips and criticism if and when I work on this run.
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Yeah, I would like to make a TAS of it, I would probably need some help for route planning and optimizations, though...
Graveworm: That boost is interesting... you do have to get magic powder eventually (for torches and so on), so is it faster to grab the mushroom and see the witch, or just get it out of the Trendy game?
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Okay, here's a testrun through the first dungeon (DX version):
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1336/Testrun1.vbm
For some strange reason, I cannot download from the dehacked site (even from other computers), therefore I have not seen the "damage boost" trick. Maybe it could have saved some time (if I understand correctly)? I think I did a pretty good job optimizing this, so far.
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Yeah, I found those glitches a few weeks ago on my own, too. I also found out that if you press Up + Down while Link is in his throwing sprite (just after throwing something), his sprite will be cut in half vertically.
It's fun to have invisible Link with Bow-wow and charge your sword, since it looks like your sword is just floating in midair.
And yes, I have only been able to do the Red tunic glitch with Bow-wow, although I have no idea why that would be the case. At any rate, it was rather unlikely for me to have ever found the glitch... I wonder if performing it will take too much time for the time saved?
