Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
moozooh wrote:
I've talked to Bisqwit on topic of FBA recently, but the conversation was quite inconclusive.
Basically, unless my info is outdated, FBA is being worked on in order to add the missing rerecording features and improve functionality. The coder who has taken the task is pcc, the guy who added rerecording to Dega.
However, there is a somewhat important problem. Apparently, FBA hasn't been frozen in development. It follows MAME's progress and continually adds support for new games or improves the existing. If you visit the official site you can see that the development goes at a steady pace.
So the problem is: which version of FBA to take as a base for adding rerecording features? This is something Bisqwit didn't decide upon. The options:
1. Old version, the one available via the emulator resource page at the main site. No support for newer games, probably some other things, and who knows what else.
2. Current version from Barry Harris's site.
3. Some future version (which?).
4. Some other version (which and why?).
Another idea: make nice with the dev team and have the rerecording features put in the official builds. Then every future version will have them. Would save future dev-hours, and even better, raise TASvideos profile.
The join-forces approach might be possible with FBA. Not with MAME, as they are hostile to TASing, or anything else beyond the reverential sipping of VVSOP, feature-bare emulation.
Ideally, dev teams would go to TASvideos to add rerecording to emulators, not the other way around. Achieving this requires a combination of aggressive friendliness and site self-promotion. (Provided the emu dev is cooperative.) I'd also enjoy seeing, e.g., the gens improvements put back into the official gens.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Didn't get very far did you? :) I worked on this awhile ago up to getting Noah but I haven't touched it in weeks, so I'll share it here.
download
length so far ~ 21 minutes
est. completed length 2 - 2.5 hours
The route is optimal (I measured all the alternatives I could think of) but after this point finding optimality gets much harder.
Unfortunately RNG manipulation doesn't give much wiggle room. There are no criticals or random misses. And damage is very sensitive to relative attack and defense so you can't just kill anything you want.
The biggest problem is getting 6500 exp for Noah so he can cast Open.
nfq says he did it in 2:17 but I haven't been able to get any details.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Unless an emulator is open source it will be useless for rerecording. End of story. Otherwise it's like asking to cook dinner in your neighbor's kitchen every night.
pSX author would rather to be praised, depended on, and in control than contribute something for timeless posterity. That's a normal mindset. (The strange ones are us.) Everyone needs to chill out and lay off, unless you want to bribe PA to open the source.
I am only surprised that an old hand like Bisqwit got his hopes up over this. Phil is right about looking toward PCSX and PCSX2. They are GPLed and somewhat mature. Plugins are just annoying detours on the road to accuracy, but they don't necessarily interfere with rerecording.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
mmbossman wrote:
I only have one question: In level two, with the black ooze that follows you, at one point you reach a platform that has ooze on both sides, and ooze coming up from the floor. It seemed like you ended up being at the left side of the screen at the end, and then had to make your way over to the right side after you're able to move on again, if you get what I mean. I'm basically wondering why you didn't stay over at the right side of the screen so that when the ooze disappears, you can be on your way.
Yes, if you are too close to the side, the view autoscrolls till you're at the center again, which is slower than walking or jumping. If you watch carefully you'll see the screen position jump slightly; the optimum time to start moving is right at the cusp of autoscrolling.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I am trying to pull my own weight by encoding my own Shinobi II submission, but I need the intro boilerplate logo before proceeding further. I do not want to make my own. I like the bisqwit one just fine. Lossless avi would be best, but I'll take the 360 tga files if need be.
Better yet, make it available to everyone from the encoding page.
https://tasvideos.org/EncoderGuidelines
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Thanks everyone for the feedback!
As for 1-2, the first gate is opened when you touch the floor stone, either from the top or the left. The second gate is opened when you cross an invisible barrier.
When you hold L+R, your current animation (crouching, rolling, attacking, etc) is locked and you move to the right. If this is used to walk off a ledge, you can jump in midair.
You can do it going left too: Hold U+D plus either L or R to choose the direction.
Two tricks I didn't use: Press all 4 directions and you throw to the left while gliding to the right. And press L+R while getting bumped and the guy clutches his chest for a long, long time; it looks like he's having a heart attack.
Near the end of 5-2 I get a partially hidden 50-shuriken. Couldn't figure out how to get that 1-up without slowing though. (I referred to a gamefaqs guide for all the hidden locations, but the guide identifies some of the items wrongly.)
I'm glad that this makes you want to redo the speedrun: Your speedrun is what got the TAS ball rolling.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Given what the wonder boy run just did to the adventure island run, this submission is in imminent risk of getting obsoleted even if it is accepted, because it's a (much less popular) clone of the SMS game wonderboy 2. (Which is itself a port of the obscure, original arcade game.)
I read about all this here.
max12187566: I recommend you pick up dega and apply your studies on this game toward making a WB2 run.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I happened to play this game a couple weeks ago and was thinking the same thing. But it's too long and too repetitive. (I did not watch the wip.) However you can use a code to make it reasonable.
DESTR0Y ALL MONSTERS - Planet earth with all enemy monsters and zilla + mothra at level 8. Don't know whether the game ends when you clear this or it goes to the next planet.
or
X STAR - Final planet, including all enemies, with your guys at level 1.
The second code would be more challenging but the downside is:
-more stages have to be cleared because the field is long
-no enemies can be skipped because the field is 1 hex wide
-on the fortress stages, godzilla has to sit and wait a long time for those wall mounted missile pods to become destructible
-earth has better music
I think the first code would make for a better run but you'd have to clear it with the forum.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Had the same problem.
Uncheck "use video memory" in display options to remedy.
This problem may be caused by recent nvidia driver updates, but if so, it has been around for more than one version. (Currently using 169.21_forceware_winxp_64bit_english_whql)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I see now: It is possible (in normal play) to get the keys and ignore the prisoner, then leave the level. This is the reason for the goonie counter. My mistake.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I'm not happy about this run because it's possible to glitch through the exits without rescuing the prisoners. (That has been done before, right?) The run should either be with glitches or without, or publish both. The way it is now is arbitrary.
I understand this game has a very long history on tasvideos so that may be the reason, but it is still inconsistent.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I noticed something like that glitch when I was mapping out this game and had to poke around with the character's x/y position in memory. Falling through the floor usually takes you back to near the house--not helpful.
If you need to fetch the boomerang and the flying dino and jump in some water (of which there is not much in the game), I am confident the glitch won't save any time.
But B-running and luck-manipulating super stars to OHKO minibosses is enough to merit a redo.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I wasn't expecting so much improvement in the other levels. I noticed a lot of damage boosts, especially the two nice ones near this point:
one of which I think is new.
I guess stinging the final boss to death was no faster?
Anyway, good run. If I were the voting type I'd vote yes.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
You stop too many times to kill enemies. Given that you have magic to freeze enemies, instant kill/wound them, give yourself full healing, and every candle holds a heart, there should be no need for this. You pass up a lot of hearts that would cost you no time to get, esp. on the earlier levels.
Using the burning mode on bosses instead of walking probably costs more time than it saves, plus the boss fights are the best part, so why rush them? Furthermore sometimes you finish the boss with burning time left over.
In the room where you have to survive the flame monsters in stage 5b, can't you be nearer to the exit rope (or climbing up it) when they stop coming?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Discussion on versions and sequence breaks
Andrew schultz, who was working with the original apple version, wrote in his gamefaqs guide that you can skip kalohn. (Don't know if he actually tested it.) This would save a lot of time. I tried going straight to the end and got rejected (edit: in both versions):
The genesis port (1991) is one of the latest ones, which means it might have all the sequence breaks plugged up. What's more, the only genesis version I see is REV01 which means there could be a glitchier REV00 out there. It seems as though the SNES version came out earlier, in 1988 (?!) but there is no (U) version for it. Interestingly, the (J) snes port came out much later in 1993 and has redone graphics with character portraits.
Kelly Flewin: I see in your useful guide, for square lake, there are a bunch of secret passages. I couldn't find any in the genesis game and had to do all the encounters. Were you using the SNES version?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
flashthe wrote:
anyone has a good save state with high level cleric and sorceror and all spells learnt?
I have an SRAM for the genesis version with that, if you want it. (Why doesn't microstorage support srm?)
The only difference I know between the SNES and MD (besides the graphics and music) is you can boost stats from the +10 locations to 100 in SNES and 50 in MD. But I never played the SNES version.
I am pretty sure you can't do etherealize shenanigans though any of the important parts, though you might skip some encounters by walking backwards.
More seriously, you should think carefully about how good a TAS this would make. My MM1 TAS on this site was so coldly received I can barely believe it got published. MM2 is longer and requires more combat, so you need to levelgrind. And no one will want watch you jerk off the cuisinarts ten times.
Things for you to find out first:
-what sequence of events is required to complete the game
-how many combats are needed
-what's the fastest way to deal with those combats
If the number of combats is small maybe forget about leveling and just rely on the greatest fountain. Or, maybe you can luck manipulate the Hide command to work every time. (Might not be possible.) Check my gamefaqs guide for all the cheap shortcuts. One guy described a way to force instant kill spells to work, which I haven't tested.
^ I wanted to make that a table but I don't know how.
The left pair is with steel or worse, and the right pair with bronze or better. The first number in the pair is normal damage and the second is if you heave the weapon on the way up during the second jump of a doublejump.
I tested some of the weapons and the numbers check out. I also noticed that the gold armor torch flames (indirect hit) do 3 dmg/frame.
Missing is the bracelet weapon. I have noticed it does more damage at close range, and if you lose your armor it has less range.
Other factors regarding weapon choice are the speed/range, the number of shots, and whether the shot penetrates soft targets. Also, the bracelet appears only after a really long fairy animation so only pick it up once.
Chests
Also in the guide is a sequence of what pops out of chests (magician, weapon, armor, etc) which depends on what arthur's current armor is. This means that in order to get an item you must make a certain number of chests appear. (The sequence increments whether or not you open the chest.)
The type of weapon you get can be manipulated but some seem to be rarer.
The guide mentions that the bracelet appears only when you have the sun shield (in the second quest), which is consistent with my memory of this game.
Chests tend to appear behind you or out of the way, which will make changing weapons cost time.
Magic
I've tested magic damage and here are my results:
Thunder (lance) 2 dmg per frame
Dragon (dagger) 2 dmg per frame
Seek (crossbow) none
Shield (torch) 3 dmg per ~6-17 frames
Tornado (scythe) 6 dmg per ~6-17 frames
Lightning (axe) and Nuclear (tri-blade) untested (seem to be unavailable on the first level)
Address
In snes9x 1.43+v9 the HP of the boss of level 1 appears at 0x7e0a21, a3 or 62. I think the game recycles HP addresses so it depends on how many enemies you've killed.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
DarkKobold wrote:
Actually, they are correct, but no one has a true understanding as to the why. Funny enough, I just finished this part of the code. So, post promotion, 2 things effect your stats. The first being the fixed statistics table for post promotion, levels 1 - 20. This is added to a value from the first table, which is 85% of the actual value.
So, still, statistics are fixed.
You get 85% of your level's FIXED statistics pre-promotion, and then the additional "promotion bonus table"
Well, that settles that then. It really is better to promote later.
On further investigation I found on the Gfaqs boards one of the threads has this link. The tables show what the stats of each char will be at level 1, just promoted. The stats depend on pre-pro level (10 .. 20), and the author recommends promoting at the blue rows. I think the rightmost column is the critical-hit parameter, which is hidden. And the tables at the bottom show the critical hit stat at levels 10 and 20 for all the chars.
He says it's a secret but I suspect how he got this info was simply by poking a given level for each promotable char, then promoting and writing down the results.
So we end up with something like
Pre promotion:
stats = pre(currentlevel) * variance
Post promotion:
stats = pre(promotedlevel) * 0.85 + post(currentlevel) * variance
where pre() and post() are functions that spit out fixed numbers and depend on the char and the level, and variance is + or - stat/N
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
So you are saying that each character has a target set of stats for each level, and the actual stats may never be more than a certain variance away from the target stats.
Does this mean that it ultimately makes no difference at what level you promote? That a character promoted closer to level 20 will subsequently get smaller gains because his post-promotion level 1 stats are higher?
Incidentally this would contradict all the faqs, which say you end up with better stats by promoting later. (Gamefaqs writers aren't exactly known for sound methodology and fact checking.)
DarkKobold wrote:
Alright, the level up code is done, and it isn't a pretty situation.
So, here is the Beef.
Your current statistics? They have ZERO bearing on the next level's statistics. The game has a set value for each level. When the RNG kicks in, it doesn't care what the current stat is, only what it should be. Additionally, it can only vary by +/- N, where N = Stat/4 for Stat/4 <5> 5; Therefore, when Max's attack is only meant to be 14, the most it can be off from the set value is 3!!!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
nitsuja wrote:
What things are you planning to buy later in the game?
Probably nothing. The common items are healing at the inn, an item to prevent running out of time, an shield to negate 3 hits to flute, and a wallet to stop her from dropping my money. You do get healing at the end of the chapters, making the inn unnecessary/unhelpful for TASing. I think later in the game you can get an item to protect Hamel.
The only real interesting thing is the UFO in chapter 2 for 800. To get that you'd have to clean out at least a few bonus levels at 100 coins each--significant time investment, and maybe not even possible until a few levels into chapter 2.
nitsuja wrote:
Dammit wrote:
I don't think it will be feasible to skip the ostrich
It's definitely possible, and might save time, so it should be tested at least until getting the puck. Which you should try power-throwing more, by the way.
Well the ostrich is definitely not necessary. It's easy to do without on 1-1 and 1-2, and from 1-4 to the end of the game I think it's not even intended to be used. But in 1-3 you'd have to use the SLOW robot more. Too many spikes to breeze through otherwise. It's possible to save time by taking 3 hits at strategic points throughout the level, then take no more hits until the end of 1-6, where you get a triple berry for free. So basically this means replaying 1-3 minus the ostrich then comparing frame counts...
Bit of info: it takes 88+2n frames to pick a costume (n is the number of cursor movements) plus another 89 frames for her to pop out of the bag.
Edit: Here is a redo of the first two parts of 1-2, done faster and inelegantly frankensteined onto nitsuja's smv.
Tired...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
level 1-3
Well my initial work is garbage compared to nitsuja's, no doubt about that. I studied it and applied a couple of his tricks to my 1-3, which I am pleased with. I don't think it will be feasible to skip the ostrich, but it only takes a few seconds to get it, so no biggie.
Couple more things:
-You don't get any free healing, so making Hameln take damage has to be balanced by getting a healberry at some point.
-The monsters are so simple and predictable, I suspect this game will be splice-friendly. But, I hate splicing.
-That superflute move is going to be a standby.
-This is harder than I thought it would be.
Question: how do you convert a starts-from-reset movie to a starts-from-savestate movie? For sharing.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
Here's a WIP of stage 1-1, which is a typical stage.
Not extensively tested for optimization. I use the superflute move twice in the 3rd section.
Edit: Got rid of all of flute's energy this time, and now stored on microstorage.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I'm resurrecting this thread.
I played this game a few weeks back and enjoyed it a lot. I thought it would make a good TAS. I was inspire to watch the anime, which was so awful I lost interest for awhile. I can't overstate how boring, cliched and predictable the anime is. But back to the game.
Some things worth thinking about:
As per the site rules, you'd have to TAS the jap version, not the translation. But that's OK, because the story makes no sense.
You don't need to buy anything to get through the game. It's possible to buy the UFO costume early, which is good for zooming through levels. But the cost is really high.
Depending on Flute's health at the end of the level you get bonus stars, and when you have four you are sent to a bonus level. But the bonus levels only yield coins, and they get old fast. So for good speed Flute should get beat up or fall in a pit before the end of every level. (She gets upset and it looks funny.)
Takes Damage to Save Time would work well here because you get some good invincibility time when hit.
Use Hameln's straight projectiles for long range/angled attacks, and Flute's super move for bosses. (I didn't figure those out till near the end of the game. FYI the first part of the game is more puzzle-like and the later parts are more action/skill oriented.)
So in summary, you should play this game if you haven't, and it would make a good speed-priority TAS.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(575)
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 103
I noticed a new game+ TAS on Chrono trigger that was marked as "concept demo" and this got me thinking.
What is the consensus on TASes that depend on memory card or SRAM data? Some games have very interesting modes locked out unless there is clear data on the plugged memory card. I can think of 4 ways to TAS those modes:
1 Unlock them with a cheat code. (Not always available.)
2 TAS the first play through and continue the extra mode without stopping the TAS.
3 TAS from a savestate.
4 Include the SRAM/memcard file along with the button input file.
The 4th option seems the best in terms of applicability and practicality. Surely it would not be (ethically) difficult to include memory data, so long as we're not talking about, e.g., importing suped up characters. It's not cheating.
A couple examples that would benefit from this are just about any Castlevania or Resident Evil game.
one of which I think is new.
I guess stinging the final boss to death was no faster?
Anyway, good run. If I were the voting type I'd vote yes.
The genesis port (1991) is one of the latest ones, which means it might have all the sequence breaks plugged up. What's more, the only genesis version I see is REV01 which means there could be a glitchier REV00 out there. It seems as though the SNES version came out earlier, in 1988 (?!) but there is no (U) version for it. Interestingly, the (J) snes port came out much later in 1993 and has redone graphics with character portraits.
Kelly Flewin: I see in your useful guide, for square lake, there are a bunch of secret passages. I couldn't find any in the genesis game and had to do all the encounters. Were you using the SNES version?