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DungeonFacts wrote:
I've been warned by the runners in the Crystal Caves speedrunning Discord server that RNG for enemy movement and falling rocks will probably present issues on future levels. I've noticed that the movie I've recorded has identical movement for the green slimes each time that I've run it, so I would like to know if a movie uses the same RNG seeds each time it runs. I really hope I don't have to dig into doing RNG manipulation and memory editing if I can help it.
The RNG should always be the same for each play of the movie because the factors that alter the RNG are the same. Factors can include (but aren't limited to) any previous key presses as well as RTC time. JPC-rr sets the RTC to a set time at assembly, and that information is saved in the movie file; so the movie played back will always have the same RNG.
Some notes/thoughts on your test run:
1) I believe the intro video of the ship flying around in space can be skipped.
2) There is a glitch that allows for skipping two of the stages. I'm not sure how it works, but i've seen RTA runners do it, so they may be able to help explain how to perform the glitch and maybe even why it works.
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c-square wrote:
I have a small concern that "No pressing start to skip minigames" will exclude it from being vaultable, but I think we can make an argument that there's no valid run without that.
So I was curious about this game and decided to throw together a TAS myself. If nothing else, any submission that is optimized (even if deemed not worthy of publication due to vault rules) can be included in the TASmania project.
While minimal, there is still opportunity for optimization and (very mild) RNG manipulation even when using 'start' to skip the mini-games.
Aside from the fact that intentionally losing them is exactly the opposite of what the developers intended, the failed mini-games don't really add much entertainment value to a viewer in my opinion. I highly doubt it'd be enough to bump a run to moons. I also doubt that the little optimization available (with or without) the mini-games will be enough to lift this game above board-game status. I'd love to be wrong on this though.
My current WIP is Regular Mode and roughly 6100 frames with no mini-games. I think it may be possible to shorten. I have a theory and am researching a possible way to quickly evaluate all practical word sequences to find which would be the fastest.
warmCabin, please don't let my comments stop you from working on your TAS. I'm curious to see the community's response if you and I both end up submitting runs using different rules/strategies. Perhaps one will be deemed vault eligible.
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c-square wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
I can get you guys this new FreeDOS image if you like.
Yes, please!! The 1:1 mouse ratio is reason enough for me to go to this.
I sent you a PM with details.
Also, I may be able to update the current Floppy image of FreeDOS to default the mouse to 1:1 as well. I'll let you know asap.
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I was able to replicate the glitchy video as you are experiencing it. Using the same settings as you.
The video issue is somehow tied to the version of FreeDOS.
I then tried running the game with a newer (and more robust) version of FreeDOS. The video was clean.(I'll post a video as soon as youtube lets me upload).
The version of FreeDOS I used is the newest version available from the FreeDOS website. I had previously created a new image with this version for CD testing. My new version, however, is an HDD image instead of a Floppy image.
So to use my version in JPC-rr, you have to mount the FreeDOS image in hda and change the boot setting at the bottom of the assembly window to hda instead of fda.
Mount the game image in hdb. hdb will be drive D:
I can get you guys this new FreeDOS image if you like. I do not have an account anywhere that offers indefinite file hosting, otherwise I'd just post a link to the image here.
Other features of my FreeDOS image:
1) More memory settings/options upon bootup
2) CD-ROM support (if the fdconfig.sys and autoexec.bat files aren't skipped).
3) 1:1 mouse support as default instead of accelerated mouse movements
Any runs using my version of FreeDOS will have slightly longer boot times than those using the current FreeDOS.
If you guys get and like the new version, I'll contact the site admins and see what it would take to update the JPC-rr page to include my version as an option.
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DungeonFacts wrote:
My main questions so far:
1. Is there a TAS-focused guide on using JPC-RR after it's been installed? I've seen links to the formal documentation for the application, but I'm not sure how useful it will be to just dive headfirst into the manual.
There's no TAS-focused guide that I'm aware of. I personally read the stuff available through this site and basically stumbled my way through the rest of it. I'm still learning.
DungeonFacts wrote:
2. Are there any other tools used for DOS runs besides JPC-RR? I haven't seen any obvious way to review the contents of a recorded video or edit what has been created (minus simply pausing the video and revising the subsequent actions), so I'm not clear if there's anything else I should be aware of. I've seen c-squared's post on some lua scripts, but without any programming experience I'll save that for after I've learned the basic tool.
JPC-rr automatically records all events (key presses, mouse movements, etc), starting fresh each time you assemble.
The movie files (and savestates) are .jrsr files which contain the event information. They can be edited directly, but it's quite difficult to do so as desyncs are almost guaranteed. While c-square's scripts can make doing this manual editing somewhat easier, desyncs still can occur.
There is unfortunately no TAStuido type interface for JPC-rr. Thus TASing DOS games can be a tedious endeavor as trying to change anything (no matter how small) at a point earlier in your movie typically causes desyncs all the way through forcing all actions after the edit to be redone. For that reason, try to optimize each section to as close to perfect as you can get it before moving forward.
DungeonFacts wrote:
3. Specific to running Crystal Caves (the only program I've run so far) it runs slowly if I just tell the game to 'Start' after assembly and let it run freely. Obviously doing single-frame advances will be slow, but I'm guessing JPC doesn't run at the same speed as DOSBox when running an application? Also, I get some artifacting when advancing through the game's opening movie, and I don't know if that's because I need to use different video settings, if the game itself isn't suited to JPC, or if I'm just using the tools incorrectly.
I'm not sure on the video issue, but otherwise Crystal Caves should be a worthwhile endeavor (I've considered doing it myself). JPC-rr is SLOW....which is part of what makes DOS TASing tedious. Frame advance is one option, the other is making efficient use of savestates. The most recent version of JPC-rr isn't the easiest for TASing; instead I would recommend c-squares modified version which allows for infinite savestates and much easier mouse implementation.
DungeonFacts wrote:
I've tried to do my homework before asking any questions, and I've made a little progress, but I think I may have jumped into the deep end of things by looking into DOS games and selecting a title without any existing TAS videos. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Many people in the community would agree that jumping into DOS first is definitely diving into the deep end of the TASing world. But that doesn't mean you can't do it.
c-square and slamo both have good experience with DOS TASing, and I'm getting more proficient myself.
We'll help you as we can. Welcome to the world of DOS TASing!
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warmCabin wrote:
Btw, this game isn't on the drop down list! It's almost as if this is a really obscure and kinda bad game that no one cares about. This may need to be rectified if I make actual submissions of these movies.
Only games with published runs are in the drop-down list on the submission form. If you submit and your run is accepted, it will then be in the list. If you're going to submit, just select (default) for your game on the submission form.
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c-square wrote:
Good run. Yes vote! And the fact that this is only 19 ms faster than the RTA shows how insane the real-time run was. I'm assuming the cars are always in the same spots and there's no RNG, correct?
Opponent car position is mildly manipulable. Your speed an distance traveled can impact when other cars arrive, but the order (which row shows up 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) is pretty consistent. Vertical position doesn't seem to change this.
Also, the speed/distance combination will affect whether an oil slick causes an upward or downward slide. So they are also mildly manipulable.
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nymx wrote:
Yes! Top speed makes a good showing. Just curious, were you braking at certain spots due to unavoidable traffic?
There are a couple times where braking is necessary. In the first section of the race there's a 'wall' of 4 cars (one in each row) that requires you to slow down to pass.
In a later section (I don't remember exactly which) a very brief (1-2 frame) brake is necessary to manipulate the arrival of red car on the top row to show up a bit earlier than the cars in the three rows below. This allows for a faster passing of this group. If this braking isn't done, the four cars will instead end up as another 'wall'.
Hitting the oil slicks makes the same sound as braking, but doesn't slow down the car. These oil slick sounds could be confused as random braking.
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ViGadeomes wrote:
I apologize... Making a TAS without any knowledges and searches :')... I'm a wrong TASer ! (I didn't know how I could find useful addresses)
I put you as extra editor on my submission. Thank you and sorry!
Don't feel bad, we all learn at different paces. I'm not an expert either.
FYI,
RAM values I've found fairly quickly:
0x2F - Player Car's Vertical Position
0x69 - Race Track Position - Race ends when = 255
0x6F - Car Speed (there may be more involved than just this value...vertical movements don't seem to affect it).
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Looks pretty well done.
Honestly it's not as entertaining as I'd hoped. Primarily because it seemed like there was as much time spent watching repeated cutscenes as there was watching actual game play....but that's not your fault.
As far as voting, I'm borderline between 'meh' and 'yes'; but I'll give it a 'yes' simply because I understand how much of a pain DOS TASing can be (which adds a bit to impressiveness/entertainment in my opinion).
Congrats on your first DOS TAS.
Side Note:
I don't remember the crew of the Enterprise having quite the Arnold physique.
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sugarfoot wrote:
I'm probably going to TAS all 4 difficulty levels eventually, and assumed default difficulty was OK.
Unless there's significant differences in game content between the difficulty levels, doing all 4 difficulties is probably unnecessary.
Also as a generality, the highest difficulty setting is usually preferred unless a lower setting yields a significantly higher entertainment potential.
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Just a quick comment on Version Choice.
I still have been unable to get the CD version of this particular game to work. It may be due to the CD-DA issue, or other settings. I have gotten some degree of success with other CD based games in JPC-rr (see forum post linked in submission text).
Thus it is currently still 'impossible' to run the CD version of the game in JPC-rr (but that doesn't mean it will always be). As such, this run's use of the floppy version should not be used as grounds for rejection.
Looking forward to watching this...will vote after I do.
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Is there a reason you chose 1 Player instead of 2 Players?
I'm not super familiar with the arcade version, but I'm guessing running 2 players co-op would yield a faster overall run and may offer more opportunity to be entertaining.
I'm going to refrain from voting on this run but will agree with Dimon12321's comment; not bad for your first TAS.
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ViGadeomes wrote:
my new version : http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/45676292775555702
All what I understood :
- Press the controller button "B" to accelerate
- you lose speed when you move down or up so minimize them
- you lose more speed with moves when you are faster so move as soon as possible(do a move in two times if it's possible).
- Oils slicks don't decrease your speed and the direction of the sliding is determined by your speed and where you touch it (What pixel).
- you lose speed when you touch a bridge.
I've played around with the game on my own and compared to your WIP.
I think your run looks pretty good. I can gain 2 frames by the end of the 1st bridge by braking slightly differently before the wall of cars. However, this is just enough to alter RNG to result in me being only 1 frame ahead by the end of the second bridge; by the third bridge, you're back in the lead. The RNG changes of the oil slick directions is where I think i'm losing the time back to you in the latter portions of the run.
I think you're good to submit.
You need to decide on your goal though....
If you want fastest in-game time, then submit as is (after eliminating empty frames at the end).
If you want fastest TAS time, delete everything after the last 'up' movement. The car will coast to the end of the race. You'll have a shorter TAS time even though it'll be a longer in-game time.
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adelikat wrote:
Re 4: Neither. Regardless of movie length it is still the same movie with the same TAS content. Emulator differences and regional differences are supposed to be factored out when judging a movie's quality over another
Re 6) I can help you out if you want
I don't think it's worthwhile trying to convert this from QuickNES to NESHawk
Reason:
NESHawk core yields one extra lag frame at power-on. This one frame changes RNG. Thus the first play from scrimmage after going out of bounds on the kickoff has a different defensive formation.
Essentially this means that all three halves in which a normal play is run would need completely re-TASed. I don't expect this would change the overall length by more than of a handful of frames over the course of the entire run; thus I don't see it being worthwhile to try and convert.
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adelikat wrote:
1) Quicknes is still a good deal more accurate than fceux
2) Quicknes runs allowed for TASVideos publications
3) if anyone argues with 2, I'd like to hear a justification for fceux
4) NEShawk is definitely preferred though, if that's a reasonable thing to convert a movie too. We do prefer accuracy when possible.
5) You can choose your core for a movie, just switch to neshawk then record a movie
6) You can convert a movie to neshawk with some manual editing of the movie file, may or may not sync though
7) quicknes is the default because it is VERY fast, and has good accuracy, a perfect choice for casual play. Default settings are for casual play because it is an emulator, not a TASing tool. It is expected that TASers are more pro users and can pick the settings necessary to make a good TAS
Referencing the above:
4) If I convert to NESHawk and the resulting movie is longer, which run takes priority from a publication standpoint?
6) I don't mind converting and re-syncing if it's a worthwhile endeavor
7) This makes sense. I had my original BizHawk set up for NESHawk before upgrading to 64-bit windows. I just forgot to check this particular setting in this one instance after the fresh install. I've definitely corrected this oversight now.
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fsvgm777 wrote:
Why did you use the QuickNES core instead of the much more accurate NESHawk core?
I had recently upgraded to a 64-bit version of windows and installed BizHawk 2.2.1. I didn't realize the installation defaulted to QuickNES core and ran the whole TAS in those settings.
If this is a reason the run can't be accepted, I guess I can try and convert it over to NESHawk Core.
2 Side Notes:
1) I was unaware that there was that drastic of a difference in accuracy. Why is QuickNES default if it's less accurate?
2) I've unfortunately had to downgrade my laptop back to 32-bit windows. If I do convert this run to NESHawk, it will be a different/older emulator version.
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ViGadeomes wrote:
I was looking for a TAS of this game.
Is that game could be cool for the site?
What could be the best one since the 4 difficulty levels of this game mean 4 different levels?
Do you TAS it as Game 4 or all Game levels in one TAS?
If the changes between difficulty levels don't add any new content but only make the gameplay more difficult, just start with the hardest difficulty setting.
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
Some schools of thought have the multiplication and division occur simultaneously, resulting in the one on the left. This method makes sense if you consider division to be multiplying by the reciprocal, IE 6*.5*(2+1)
Multiplication and division are equal in value and occur from left to right when separated by corresponding symbols, but the parenthesis directly associates with the 2 (without a symbol) thus separating the entire segment 2(2+1) as the divisor.
Edit:...which is why multiplying by reciprocal works for division when symbolically separated.
Edit 2:
So in this case, multiplying by the reciprocal would yield 6*.166666666666..... which equals 1.
EDIT 3:
Well crap. I'm mostly wrong. It is apparently no longer the convention to do the parenthesis association with the adjacent number. Though it USED TO BE the convention. Every math teacher I had through all my school used the old convention, not the new one.
I don't understand why the new convention is used; you'd never separate the expression 6÷2x to be 6÷2*x
