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c-square wrote:
One quick point, you may want to replace the suggested screenshot with a one from this run that doesn't have the glitched text at the top.
Done
Also, on a similar note to potentially receiving a nomination for Speedy TAS of the year, would Radiant be qualified for Rookie of the year as this is his first submitted TAS?
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fsvgm777 wrote:
Page 2 clearly displays a joystick (but that's already established). However, it only allows for 8 directional inputs. Therefore, the input in this case is semi-analog (as is the case with many other Arcade games), like in the Atari 2600 controller.
It's fully digital. The 8 directions are achieved through 4 switches and combinations of the signals coming from them just like in an NES controller. The only difference is that in the NES controller, the 'wires' are the electrical traces attached to the internal circuit board, while the arcade cabinet uses actual copper wires. Gluing a thumbstick to the top of an NES controller wouldn't magically make it analog anymore than arcade joysticks make their internal switches analog.
I've had multiple jobs through college repairing arcade machines. The VAST majority of older games (and many) newer ones use on/off switches (either leaf or button style) underneath the joystick and are thus digital input, not analog. There were a few analog controlled games, but they were rare in my experience.
This means an arcade joystick is essentially the same as an NES control pad. Where the only limitation to pressing U+D/L+R on the NES is the rigid D-Pad on the stock NES controller, the only limitation to pressing U+D/L+R on the arcade cabinet is the rigid joystick structure.
If NES TASes are accepted because these multidirectional inputs can be physically performed on non-stock controllers, the argument could be made that modifying a cabinet's controls to accept these inputs would be that same as using an aftermarket/non-official controller.
To further support the side of accepting these inputs on arcade machine TASes... While I was working in those repair jobs, I took the opportunity to press the switches for opposite directions simultaneously during internal maintenance on various cabinets. I can confirm that this would indeed glitch some games, in some cases requiring a complete reboot of the unit to return the game to normal function.
EDIT: My apologies to Ferret Warlord, I was in the midst of typing my response when you posted yours saying essentially the same thing in a much more concise manner.
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I was able to edit the save file to eliminate the sound during the self destruct keypad sequence. I've updated the video links above.
I'll submit the final video a bit later tonight.
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c-square wrote:
That's completely up to you. I'm glad to have helped, but you're the one who ran the run in the end. I'm happy to have my name added to the list, but I won't be offended if it isn't. To submit with multiple authors, just put commas or ampersands in the nickname field to separate the authors.
Just because you didn't directly work on the final TAS movie file, doesn't mean your work wasn't included. Without the input from you and Radiant on the various randomization calculations and Radiant's understanding/clarifications of the AGI system, I would never have accomplished this result.
I was asking to both be polite and to give you two the opportunity to actively request not to be included in authorship, if you so desired. But my opinion is that you've both earned a place.
I'll wait to hear from Radiant before publishing.
On a different and completely unnecessary note...
Hypothetically, if Radiant were to do a TAS of one of his own games, would it be deemed unfair? Because theoretically, he could just tweak a few files here and there to make a TAS extremely easy and then claim it a new version of the game with which he could then perform the TAS.
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Radiant wrote:
SQ contains an internal clock that few people know about (because it's not in the menu for some reason). It may be interesting to show this in the speedrun? Or perhaps you find it distracting. To try it out, on any screen type "clock"; or if you want to be fancy about it, "First, please clock me in, sir." Since this doesn't affect gameplay it may be possible to hex it into an early room.
I tried to manipulate the save-state. I was able to get the command squeezed in after getting the keycard on the Arcada. However, even though I was able to get the game to sync through opening the bay doors, it desynced after that room.
I don't think it' s worth the effort to figure out all the adjustments to add it in.
ANYWAY: I've finished the runs. Here's the temp encodes for full speed and 1/5th speed. BEWARE! The sound during the screen with the code panel on the Start Generator is REALLY ANNOYING; mute or skip this LONG section.
Normal:
Link to video
1/5 Speed:
Link to video
Now then...who all wants/gets authorship credit? I was thinking myself, c-square, and Radiant.
To follow up that question...how do I submit with multiple authors?
EDIT: Updated video links with annoying alarm sound disabled.
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Start: 30 Bz
1) Bet 1 -> EDE 29 Bz
2) Bet 1 -> SCE 28 Bz
3) Y- Enter
4) Bet 3 -> EEE 55 Bz
5) Y- Enter
6) Bet 3 -> EEE 82 Bz
7) Y-Enter x 3
8) Bet 3 -> EEE 109 Bz
9) Y-Enter x 5
10) Bet 3 -> EEE 136 Bz
11) Bet 3 -> CCD 148 Bz
12) Y-Enter
13) Bet 3 -> DDD 205 Bz
14) Bet 1 -> SDS 204 Bz
15) Bet 2 -> CDS 204 Bz
16) Y-Enter
17) Bet 3 -> DDD 261 Bz
18) Machine Broken
END FRAME =
EDIT: Actually, we can set it up so that you get to 250 but not actually break the machine, meaning the text pop-up won't appear. I don't know if that will save anything, but may be worth checking out:
Start: 30 Bz
1) Bet 1 -> EDE 29 Bz
2) Bet 1 -> SCE 28 Bz
3) Y- Enter
4) Bet 3 -> EEE 55 Bz
5) Y- Enter
6) Bet 3 -> EEE 82 Bz
7) Y-Enter x 3
8) Bet 3 -> EEE 109 Bz
9) Y-Enter x 5
10) Bet 3 -> EEE 136 Bz
11) Bet 1 -> CCD 140 Bz
12) Y-Enter
13) Bet 3 -> DDD 197 Bz
14) Bet 1 -> SDS 196 Bz
15) Bet 2 -> CDS 196 Bz
16) Y-Enter
17) Bet 3 -> DDD 253 Bz
18) F10 Exit
Both of these will break the machine. Anything greater than 249 will.
The only way to not break the machine and get enough cash for the purchases is to get between 240-249 on the machine then pick up the buckazoids from the droids-b-us building or the bartender. With our current seed order, neither extra pickup is faster than just breaking the bank.
Both of the above should take the same amount of time. I compared the first to my old sequence and the top one is 3 frames faster. I may be able to shave off another frame or two with better timing on the inputs, but I think this one is the best we've found.
Start: 30 Bz
1) Bet 1 -> EDE 29 Bz
2) Bet 1 -> SCE 28 Bz
3) Y- Enter
4) Bet 3 -> EEE 55 Bz
5) Y- Enter
6) Bet 3 -> EEE 82 Bz
7) Y-Enter x 3
8) Bet 3 -> EEE 109 Bz
9) Y-Enter x 5
10) Bet 3 -> EEE 136 Bz
11) Bet 3 -> CCD 148 Bz
12) Y-Enter
13) Bet 3 -> DDD 205 Bz
14) Bet 1 -> SDS 204 Bz
15) Bet 2 -> CDS 204 Bz
16) Y-Enter
17) Bet 3 -> DDD 261 Bz
18) Machine Broken
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Radiant wrote:
SQ contains an internal clock that few people know about (because it's not in the menu for some reason). It may be interesting to show this in the speedrun? Or perhaps you find it distracting. To try it out, on any screen type "clock"; or if you want to be fancy about it, "First, please clock me in, sir." Since this doesn't affect gameplay it may be possible to hex it into an early room.
It would take some fancy save-state editing, but I think it would be possible.
Hoping not to test every key, is there a list of key IDs for JPC-rr? For example, 'Enter' is key 28, I believe.
The only concern I have with displaying the internal clock is that it may run faster than actual time, making it look like the playthrough has been artificially sped up.
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c-square wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
Ok, I just set JPC-rr to run instead of doing frame advance.
I followed your sequence, and here's what I got.
My apologies. I was doing this after midnight last night and made some mistakes.
Please give this a try:
1) Bet 1 -> Eye | Diamond | Eye
2) Bet 1 -> Skull | Cherry | Eye
3) Y-Enter
4) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
5) Y-Enter
6) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
7) Y-Enter
8) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Cherry
9) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Eye| Cherry
10) Y-Enter
11) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
12) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Diamond
13) Y-Enter
14) Bet 3 -> Diamond | Diamond | Diamond
15) Bet 1 -> Skull | Diamond | Skull
16) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Diamond | Skull
17) Y-Enter
18) Bet 3 -> Diamond | Diamond | Diamond
No problem. Fatigue hinders everyone's productivity.
And not to be difficult, but that only yields 246 buckazoids. It takes another 3 spins to get the needed 250.
The last $4 could come from the coupon with the barkeeper or from picking up the few lying behind the droids r us building (probably the least efficient).
Ii'll test and see which is faster between the extra 3 spins or redeeming the coupon at the bar.
Some estimates before testing...the coupon will require at least 2 text boxes (8-10 frames) in addition to the frames to get to the bar, then a few more waiting for the barkeeper to get to Roger. This would be probably a minimum total of 20-25ish frames, but wouldn't need the text box for breaking the slot machine.
The 3 extra spins would require 15-21 frames for spins and another 4-5 for the text box. So..it could be close. I'll test them as soon as I am able....which won't be before tomorrow.
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c-square wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
c-square wrote:
But, there is a faster way through the slots:
1) Bet 1 -> Eye | Diamond | Eye
2) Bet 1 -> Diamond | Cherry | Eye
3) Y-Enter
4) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
5) Y-Enter
6) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
7) Y-Enter
8) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Cherry
9) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Skull | Cherry
10) Y-Enter
11) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
12) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Diamond
13) Bet 1 -> Skull | Diamond | Skull
14) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Diamond | Skull
15) Y-Enter
16) Bet 3 -> Diamond | Diamond | Diamond
This is incorrect at step 13. Also my symbols don't always match yours, perhaps there's something different somewhere that we missed?
Is there a reason not to bid 3 on a winning spin? I didn't think the bid amount affected the random seed.
EDIT: Using your sequence up through 12, then performing a Y command gets the sequence back onto my original one at seed 14510; however with a higher money value. This results in one less spin on the slots before breaking it.
Hmm... what symbols do you get? If they don't match then I've got something off in my spreadsheet. Also, always be sure to see the losing message on any of the "bet 1s". Choosing that message uses up a random call.
A spin that results in just one starting cherry simply gives your money back, so it doesn't matter what you bet. I chose 2 to differentiate between winning spins, losing spins and break-even spins. That, and the number 2 seemed lonely. ;)
I'll double check on the Bet 1 spins and make sure I wasn't doing the next action too quickly.
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c-square wrote:
But, there is a faster way through the slots:
1) Bet 1 -> Eye | Diamond | Eye
2) Bet 1 -> Diamond | Cherry | Eye
3) Y-Enter
4) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
5) Y-Enter
6) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
7) Y-Enter
8) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Cherry
9) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Skull | Cherry
10) Y-Enter
11) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
12) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Diamond
13) Bet 1 -> Skull | Diamond | Skull
14) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Diamond | Skull
15) Y-Enter
16) Bet 3 -> Diamond | Diamond | Diamond
This is incorrect at step 13. Also my symbols don't always match yours, perhaps there's something different somewhere that we missed?
Is there a reason not to bid 3 on a winning spin? I didn't think the bid amount affected the random seed.
EDIT: Using your sequence up through 12, then performing a Y command gets the sequence back onto my original one at seed 14510; however with a higher money value. This results in one less spin on the slots before breaking it.
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c-square wrote:
Also, I've pretty much figured out how to add joystick input via keyboard to JPC-rr. Do you want to use it to help you in the tight spots, or are you okay going on without it?
Thanks for the better slot sequence.
Since I'm through the skimmer portion and we have a good run for Slots, I don't see a reason to redo the skimmer portion with joystick control.
Radiant wrote:
The idea behind writing
(3) Little is up with you, I guess, yes?
was to have the typed commands give the opposite result of what they appear to do, as much as possible. So Roger answers positively at first and he does not sell the skimmer, and the second time he answers negatively and does sell it. Writing YES!! kind of negates that.
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Update on current WIP.
I start with a RTC to yield no guards on the Arcada.
I use the 'Y' command to obtain the longest delay for the spider droid (He unfortunately still arrives).
I use one 'Y' command to skate past the Acid drops.
I manually cruise through the Skimmer sequence without hitting rocks.
Skimmer is not stolen in Ulence Flats.
'Y' commands utilized to obtain shortest death time for the alien at the slot machines (he dies before I can get there walking directly from the entrance).
Using the spreadsheet of seed values, I conquer the slots in under 2.5 seconds.
If that is satisfactory, then I'll continue to the end of the run and submit. If we think we can get it better using manipulation of the rocks in the skimmer sequence, I'll wait.
As it stands, seed values at the following locations:
Beginning of the Skimmer run - 27165
First input after entering Slot Machine - 25105
Link to video
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Radiant wrote:
Right, so those acid drops are pretty straightforward....the odds are good that the seed you already have will get you past them.
Good to know. What I originally meant with my question was, do we want to try and manipulate the random calls to control what seed we get coming out of that room?
Or do we just want to see where it's at when entering the skimmer sequence?
c-square wrote:
Looks like there's no delay for joystick input. It should be easy to update JPC-rr so you can use the number keys to control the joystick, if you'd like.
My first question: Is that much work necessary? What is the potential range of seed changes that can happen through the skimmer sequence?
Second question: Might it be simpler to just make a run with my current RTC time and see where the seed is at the end of the skimmer sequence when performed manually; compare that number with the seed spreadsheet and see where it leaves us for the slots; then use that information to determine how much manipulation we actually need to worry about during the skimmer sequence?
If we end up with a relatively good starting point for the slots with this method, we don't have to try and automate so much of the skimmer sequence.
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I've found an initial RTC that yields no guards on the Arcada and only requires one 'y' input to advance the random seed to yield the longest time for the spider droid to appear.
I've run through the game up through exiting the escape pod and was able to confirm that variable v93 was set to 250, which I believe is the longest possible.
Now then...Do we want to try and manipulate acid drops, or just deal with the random seed where we are when we get past them?
Also on the note of randomness...
Does the guy who buys the skimmer work on an RNG timer? Does the blue droid in the Deltaur airlock work on one?
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SUCCESS!
I've got a spreadsheet that works for choosing what starting seed I want.
It took a combination of calculations and brute force to complete the spreadsheet, but it's done. I can now set the initial RTC to yield a desired seed value upon Room 2.
Now to see if I can find a starting RTC that yields the longest spider droid delay as well as no guards on the Arcada.
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c-square wrote:
I just had another thought: how about using joystick input to get around the clunky frame limitation of typing? It could well make for better routes, and may make tackling the skimmer sequence easier.
For what it's worth, I don't mind doing the skimmer sequence manually. It just won't give us as much control of the random seed heading into Ulence Flats if I do so.
Speaking of randomization in Ulence Flats. Once we decide on a final process for the skimmer sequence, I'll see what I can do about not having to take the key out of the skimmer to save a few frames.
