- Boss Key
- Compass
- Dungeon Map
- Stone of Agony
- Gerudo Membership Card
- Gold Skulltula total, no duplications allowed
- All songs
- All medallions
- All Spiritual Stones
- Best upgrade for Arrows (Adult) and Slingshot (Child), as well as Bombs, Strength Upgrade, and Scales, but you DO have to collect the ones that hold a lower quantity (known as Left-Side Equipment, LSE)
- Obviously, all right-side equipment (RSE), highest upgrades (i.e. minus the Giant's Knife)
- All items collected. No RBA allowed to place the items in the inventory, but once they're collected, their quantities can be RBA'd (Bloobliebla's Ice Cavern with all those slides = omg)
Summarized as: Collect all items that show up subscreen without the use of item duplication or RBA.
If we define an item as something you get from a chest or the like and not stuff lying around or gotten from enemies (refills), then this definition makes sense, and it makes sense for 100%, too.
RattleMan wrote:
- Magic/Double Magic
- NOT all chests opened/nor all Small Keys obtained
I would agree on the magic. I would also say all heart pieces must be collected. This could be summarized as: Collect all items that show up on the HUD.
Again, define items as things that are finite. That rules out rupees, but not the keys.
RattleMan wrote:
- Link's cow obtained (not in the menu, but part of my 100% definition)
Makes sense for 100%, but very tricky to define. Might have to live without this one...
RattleMan wrote:
- NOT each room visited
- NOT all possible cutscenes seen (allows for Wrong Warps and Cutscene Deaths)
I would tend to agree. Cutscenes and map exploration is not part of 100% definition for a Zelda game (Castlevania games may be different though...).
RattleMan wrote:
- Gold Skulltula token from collecting all the ones in that dungeon
- All Gold Skulltula icons in the overworld, which means that you have collected all the GS in that area
Not really necessary since you require all golden skulltulas be collected which requires this to show up according to the game's rules.
...But not the gold skulltula problem. We somehow need some items of which we need collect only one (eg bombs, beans) and where we have to collect all of them (eg gold skulltulas).
But I suppose that collecting an item is different from refilling an item. Once collected, it permanently stays in the inventory even if you don't have any.
Also, maxing out the subscreen would imply you have to get all the beans. Though I suppose that is one lesser evil for fewer exceptions.
Also, maxing out maps seem kind of pointless... another drawback with the maxing out subscreen definition.
I'm sufficiently aware of how it works, though I am no expert.
Maybe RBA can't do it (if so, then sorry for specifically mentioning RBA), but what I meant was that unless we define HOW items are acquired, glitches could be used to duplicate stuff (as mentioned before).
Honestly, I think the best definition is somewhere along the lines of collecting all finite items that show up as part of the HUD or the Menu screen at any point of time (that includes dungeon items such as keys).
Maxed out is rather vague and doesn't say how the process of getting these items is done (though that could be a strength, too; but I still think it is too vague).
I would define collecting as the process where the game registers the acquisition of an item via the intended method by the game developers (ie, Link actually picking up the item and showing it above his head in this example).
This probably picks up unnecessary stuff, but from what I see, it's kind of the middle ground between some "pick up all unique items" and "max out subscreen."
Keep in mind that there are many items in the game that are neither persistent nor permanent. Take bottles as an example. Just capturing something in them transforms them into some entirely different item!
Unique: Something of which there exists only one of. Therefore, rupees and keys are not unique. So we can count those out.
I would define an item as something that shows up on the item subscreen. Epona and the cow does not, therefore they are not items.
Obtain is difficult to define, however. But that is something that has to be defined regardless of how we define the goals.
Btw, how do you define persistent? Is the fairy ocarina persistent? Clearly, it is unique, but it is later replaced by the Ocarina of Time.
I would be very sad to see the runner duplicating all the heart containers and heart pieces out there... kind of destroys 100% for me, which would be showing off the game and collecting items in the coolest way possible.
I still disagree with that one. Either you can write stuff to your menu or you can't. If you don't want it, ban the glitch that allows it. No weird arbitrary middle ground please.
Well, if you want to ban any glitches that allows you to obtain items without picking them up in the game "legally" (what legally means is probably debatable since there are probably lots of ways to get items unintentionally such as getting them out-of-order, etc; what I mean is simply to pick them up in the game without any memory glitches), then that's fine with me.
Still the basic definition of the category should stay simple:
- max out the menu without any corrupted items in there
- end the game
I agree, but I would change that to:
- Max out the menu by legally obtaining all items without any corrupted items in there.
- Finish the game.
But still, what does max out the menu mean? Only the stuff you can see at the end of the game (dungeons have their sub-menu, after all), and does that include the map?[/i]
What is the fun in seeing the runner duplicate all possible heart pieces? That should be reason enough not to allow duplication.
Why do we have 100% in the first place if all it does is mimick the any% by just duplicating whatever stuff you need?
If the consensus is that you must obtain bottles and/or items the intended way, then why should there be exceptions to other things such as medallions and keys?
What is the reason that consensus is there in the first place?
If Epona can help, or impact gameplay in any or way or form, should it not be considered as an ability or upgrade? Then, by that logic, Epona should be included in 100% as a requirement.
I think that was the point. ;)
Limiting it to the menu is a good idea. The question is if dungeon menus should count. I think they shouldn't, since you would have to every dungeon to find them.
But then again, I don't think it would be tedious to collect all the dungeon items. I think it would add to the value of the run.
...Or would it?
Maybe everything that stays gone when you get it should be collected? Every single little treasure chest. Oh and the records for the minigames must of course be maxed out, too.
The collected skulltulas (their location once you collectedc them) appears somewhere on the map in the inventory (maybe only in the dungeons) when you've collected them. So Skulltula duping is definitely not an option.
There are 2 basic entire different ways to define 100%:
1) Collect everything collectable
2) Make your Inventory Screen 100%
In both cases you have to collect all skulltulas due to what I said above. In definition 2 we could RBA a lot of stuff, like all medaillons and later on use a Wrong Warp into the Light Medaillon cutscene to get this medaillon back. We can dupe hearts, so collecting heart pieces wouldn't be nescassary either. The Child Dungeons and a lot of Songs could be skipped as well. So all in all all temples apart from one would be skipped. This one temple would be used for the Wrong Warp to the Light Medaillon (As far as I can tell Fire Temple has to be used for this).
You could also RBA Tunics and some stuff using RBA with some Masks on c-right, but I can't remember what exactly gives you what stuff. Of course you would also have infinite bombchus resulting in a bombchu madness all over the place.
I guess using this definition and a shitload of RBA it should be possible to beat the game 100% in around 2 hours.
One problem, though:
I remember trying Heart Piece dupe in Lost Woods using Mupen and it crashed for me. Maybe this is impossible using the brilliantness of Mupen, who knows.
Well, the typical definition of 100% is to collect every item, or collectible, in the game, so the first definition makes sense.
The second makes no sense at all, because you could theoretically just cheat somehow to fill it up.
Also, considering the entertainment value, the second definition would be boring. Some wrong warps here and there and some duplication is always nice, but when seen done a hundred times, it just becomes boring. RBA is cool, but when it's seen done repeatedly to acquire stuff instead of venturing into dungeons, it quickly becomes boring.
The problem with the first one is, of course, the definition of collectible. What is a collectible? Is a heart collectible (not heart container)? Are skulltulas collectible? Most would argue that finite items should be collectibles (gold skultulas, heart containers, etc). But that is just really too vague for all games, so the typical definition is something like an item that counts toward something permanently visible in the game. That would include gold skulltulas and heart containers, but not dungeon items such as keys, etc.
Anyway, in my own opinion, the TAS should aim to be as entertaining as possible, and what better way to do that than to collect all items visible in the status screen and dungeon items?
Just my thought on the whole.
Frankly put, no.
TAS is supposed to show off super human skills. This just looks like some poor AI having fun with each other.
You need to spice it up.
I equated it to the specified drop rate. If the ACTUAL drop rate is different, then I might find something amiss.
Maybe I just misunderstood something here.
I mean, 600 kills, 3 souls means on average 1 soul per 200 kills, and the drop rate is 1% (I just took what Kriole specified in the above post; if that isn't the ACTUAL drop rate with enhancing gear and stuff, then obviously this is wrong), then that might just indicate very bad luck, but perhaps not that something is wrong.
That seems pretty consistent with the drop rates.
I mean, it isn't at all uncommon that if you have a droprate of 1%, then it might takes 30 kills sometimes, and 200 sometimes. That's just a draw of luck.
Although, I haven't actually read much on the subject of statistics... and I don't know the standard deviation, but this very much seems consistent.
...I still want to add a section about some of the details of the game, such as how I worked towards a soul and how the different movement patterns work, and maybe discuss the drop rates of this game cause they're clearly bullshit. If a soul has a 2% base drop rate WITHOUT adding the extra drop rate that luck provides and I don't find the soul for nearly 600 random numbers, then clearly there is something wrong. 'But it could be bad luck?' no. It happened repeatedly, that souls, especially with 1-4% drop chance, had a much much lower drop rate than suggested. Even Mothman, where I could go 30 random numbers without finding it and it's supposed to have 32% drop rate? Sure.
But that's statistics for you.
Assuming a rather random psuedo-random number generator, you would find a soul with a 1% drop rate every hundred battle IF and only if the number of attempts you've done to replicate this scenario goes to infinity.
It cannot predict how many times it takes to make something happen consistently. It tells you the AVERAGE time it takes to get something to happen when you've done that which causes the event to occur sufficiently many times.
This wouldn't hold for a deterministic and simple random generator, though. If it's a simple algorithm, then there would be something amiss. But if it starts taking input from many different sources, then it could be very random.