Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Just thought I'd check in and see how progress is going Axe. Sometimes I think I might be the only person truly interested in this run, but I'm extremely anxious to see how you surprise me next.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Big yes vote from me. That was an awesome abuse of the game's coding. That said, I agree with what many others are saying. This run showcases a great glitch, but it basically breaks the entire game to the point where it doesn't really appear to be the game anymore. I think it should be published alongside the current run and not obsolete it.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I would have to vote no on this. This game plays more like mario in turbo mode and less like SMB. It does demonstrate the same trick as used in the U version on levels where you can't do it outside of the E version, but I don't really feel like the games are the same. I wouldn't mind seeing a note in the published run linking to this submission and saying why it isn't published.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Name one run? Okay. Genesis King's Bounty (USA/Europe) in 00:09.93 by Giancarlo Rivas (aka. gia) & Jaakko Järviniemi (aka. Aqfaq). Not only does this run showcase NOTHING, but it is a STARRED movie. Yes, there's luck manipulation going on, but we're talking about an extremely trivial game here. In total the TAS pushes a button on the controller 17 times. That's pretty darn trivial.
To be sloppy is to do something with poor ability to do so. To be trivial is to be so simple as to be unremarkable in any way. These traits do not share anything in common.
This run is not trivial in that sense nor is it sloppy, so it would appear to me your coin needs to go flip somewhere else.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I don't deny this run may be trivial compared to say a 100% run of Super Metroid. By the same standard, so are several other games on the site. That has nothing to do with being sloppy. The time it takes to do something and the quality put into that time is not the same thing. Get off your elitist high horse.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Someone considered this movie worth running, so obviously not all runners share the same opinions about what is and is not trivial. Nor is this site only about the actual runners. There are a great number of people around here, like myself, who enjoy watching the runs, but do not have the time to make them.
Look, I'm all for rejecting a movie because it fails to entertain a majority of the user base. Reject it if it's sloppy and has obvious areas of improvement (even though there are times when runs with obvious improvements have been published before). Reject it if it's using a bad dump or switching versions without any reason for doing so. I just hate to see good runs rejected because a minority finds the movie uninteresting.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Ok, I'm too lazy to go back and quote all of the things I've read in here that really need replying to, so I'm just going to do a general reply.
First of all, this movie had over 60% of the votes on it for yes, with a larger meh % than no. Very few were against the publication of this movie. That means that a large majority of the user base of this site, which should be the primary source of opinion on what the site wants to see, either wanted to see this published or at the very least was not against the publication of it. So the will of a few who didn't enjoy it overrides the joy of the many who really did enjoy it. Didn't we go through this a while back with runs like the Crystalis TAS, which enjoyed a very long tenure unpublished for this very same reason. I thought this site had gotten past the point where games were rejected for these odd reasons.
The run was obviously technically well done. It was done faster than a human has been able to do it. It was highly entertaining to me, and many others on the site as well. These are the goals the site should strive for. I do not personally believe any game should be rejected because "It's just not a good game to TAS". Someone puts the time into it, others enjoy watching it, that's enough. You don't like it, don't watch it. No one will ever leave this site because it publishes a run of a game you don't enjoy watching, but people can and will be attracted to the site when that one off-the-wall game they happen to love is here.
Sad day at this site, sad day indeed.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Hah, that's a great way to watch Myst beaten. Yes vote from me. Wouldn't mind seeing someone actually go through the game getting all the other pages that give you the hints though. Would be much more interesting.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
That was quite the run. Amazingly quick work on some of the bosses. Draygon without the thunder bracelet was something to see. Can't wait to see the full run.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I look forward to seeing the test run in full. Would never have guessed that you could save time without the thunder bracelet. Paralysis on the skeletons for quicker kills and more exp is brilliant. I never even thought of that.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
It's one of those things that has become a rule on this site. Developer Debug functions, unless specified in the instruction booklet, are not allowed. Just as you can't use player 2 to save your character from dying in a pit in MM3.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
It has been a couple of months without any updates and I'm, as always, very interested in this run. Is it still progressing, or has it been put on hold?
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
This is another of those movies that I always felt had a really poor reason for rejection. The game is played very well, I found the run to be quite entertaining, and it gets my yes vote.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I'm quite glad to see this run get a second shot at life. It really is an amazing run if you know the game. Several glitches are displayed, he uses a great leveling path, and he comes within 9 minutes of the Wild Warp run. I'm not a big fan of disallowing debug codes, I feel they are just one more way to exploit the game system, so I never agreed with taking AxeMan's WW run off the main page. I realize that's not the majority opinion around here though, so if this movie obsoletes it then that's fine. Additionally, seeing this run published is probably the only way to get anyone to ever attempt the game again. With the WW stuck in concept and such a strong technical run of the normal game in grue-food, the game had no chance of getting a published movie.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Well, I'm sorry to hear it isn't legit, but I know the last time I downloaded it I got it from the NES section, not a concept demo section. I wouldn't have looked for it there. I assume that eventually it was decided that the wild warp code was unacceptable. I think it is sad the non-warp version was never published and this version has been relegated to a part of the site no one will ever see it at. Oh well, that's the way things go sometimes. Thanks for clearing it up for me.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I can't find anywhere that says this TAS was removed from publication on the actual site, nor does it say so on this thread, but it is no longer on the list of NES TAS videos. Searching the site still pulls up the video, but I just wondered if it was a glitch from the new format of the website or if the movie lost publication status somehow.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I can't wait to check this out. I'm going to set up the download on my other computer in just a minute. I honestly couldn't stand playing this game because of the battle system, so I'm anxious to check out the final half of the game that I never got to.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
I've just got to ask, why in the world did you do this?
modified key configuration so the special weapon button is set to 'A' (instead of the default 'X').
I didn't try to find it in frame advance, but doesn't this waste a couple of frames that could have been saved by configuring your controller/keyboard differently? Not reason enough to deny the submission, but that's a lack of optimization that just...stands out to me.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents at this. The run is amazing and filled with wtf moments. It deserves massive praise for doing things so differently. That said, I view this much like the zelda 3 or link's awakening runs that finish the game in ungodly time using completely game breaking glitches. It should be a category unto itself and should not obsolete runs that fail to use it.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
AKA wrote:
In B+K and DK64, it is widely known that the game does surface checks in relation to the water. While they may seem very different games OoT and SM64 have very simalar engines and both games share simalar water physics, although how the characters interact with the water is a different subject. Both games have water environments definined by a large square, with the water stretching infinitly downwards, and I know from playing OoT that you can make Link fall off the edge of the map and then move him into the defined water area, then he will start swimming again. You can also do a similar thing with Mario on the WF and TTM courses. So to conclude, my belief is that charging through the surface would not cause Mario to ignore the water environment.
I know that there is a surface check on the boundaries of the square that contains the water. I just can't see a volumetric water with checks beyond the surface in an N64 game when in the Gamecube game of Super Mario Sunshine the surface is the only place the check occurs (check for glitches of Yoshi walking underwater, etc for examples of this if need be). I'll admit, I don't know the code of the game, nor do I fully understand all of the glitches. On all of the examples you mentioned, the character does not pass through the surface with such speed that they fail to trigger the swim animation. They just fall/walk/jump into the area "normally". I guess it doesn't matter though, as far as I know, there are no areas where you can BLJ and get enough speed to break the surface of the water and end up underneath...so it can't be tested anyways.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
superjupi wrote:
Just to answer your moat door question: the door is fully operable while the moat is full. The only thing stopping you from using it is that you cannot manipulate doors while swimming.
Also, it's theoretically impossible to pass that door with the moat full due to there being no clear path to clip through the wall. Doesn't mean it can't be done, it just means that there doesn't appear to be a way to do so. Positioning is everything.
So if something were to be found that would allow enough gain of speed to clip through the surface of the water, Mario should indeed fall to the ground, perhaps take damage, and be able to enter the door. I don't remember anything that would allow it, so I'll agree with the theoretically impossible statement, but it'd sure be cool if someone found a way. Afterall, 1 & 0 star runs were also considered impossible at one point. Here's hoping!
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
5th shot would be my choice. btw, since you commented about entering the door in the moat as the only remaining thing that might be able to skip something, I wanted to ask if that's actually impossible, or just undiscovered. Is it a door that you just can't enter because you're swimming, or is it simply a texture and doesn't become a door until after the moat drains. Is it possible to do something like in Sunshine where you glitch under the water and the game thinks you're still walking on land? Not that any of that matters to this run, just thoughts on your thoughts.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
