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From my testing so far, RNG seems to be mostly dominated by the frame you enter an area. Camera angles could likely change it as well.
When I think of Conga RNG I only think of two things to worry about: Getting Conga to not beat his chest and getting him to throw an orange onto the third pad without standing on it.
Conga beating his chest when you approach him initially seems to be quite rare actually so I am not too worried about that.
As for getting him to throw it onto the third pad, people have been able to replicate this somewhat with a certain series of inputs, though seems to be relatively precise. This likely is not RNG based at all.
Also, the jiggy spawn direction we know how to influence now, by killing/destroying an object at a certain angle, the jiggies will always overlap thus skipping a jiggy dance.
I hope that answers your question. If not let me know!
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Now that finals are over and I'm back from AGDQ and other personal obligations, I am back to working on this. Just going to jump right into Spiral Mountain and start off from where the old TAS got the backflip.
I've found some neat little things that save time but I'd like to save those for the actual project and I'll show them in some WIPs.
To follow up with your theory about TTC early, Cronikeys actually "found" a way to get into TTC early but it was never reproduced on console. The way she did it was clipping into the pipe you use to climb up to the jiggy and then swimming oob over to the chest. The clip was done in the same style as the BGS witch switch jiggy clip. Could be emulator only.
Me and other banjo runners actually spent multiple hours at agdq in the practice room trying to get a set up for the BGS clip and I SORT of found one it's just pretty finicky. Kind of hard to explain so I may make a video later.
Your find about falling from large heights and moving quickly is correct provided the height is in a good range. For example in Jinxy you can roll off, and flutter cancel one frame before you hit the ground and immediately get in talon trot, saving time from not fluttering. May also be useful in winter.
Something that Stiv stumbled upon during agdq is that it's possible to enter talon trot while leaving a level, skipping the animation.
Mostly everything is planned out and routed except for feather and egg count. I want to skip the egg door at the end of the game. If anyone wants to help me plan out egg usage that would be great.
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Pjii's any% PB is now a 44:41, yeah. He recently got that time and has moved on to cheato % for which he got a 28:25. He will likely be improving that too.
This WIP is interesting. Some of it is really optimized like the code entering, but the movement could use some work. Probably around 3 potential seconds are lost in Klungo from not getting a good push. You can get pushed throughout the entirety of the cutscene if your placement is exceptional.
Some things I noticed and thoughts that came to mind:
- Randomly jumping just once: Not sure why this is done in some areas? Rule of thumb with this game is to keep jumping if you start to jump at all, and always jump while going up hills.
- Movement in general in a lot of places is not done in straight lines.
- I am unsure if shooting eggs in bursts of three is faster than shooting constantly.
Definitely interested to see where the TASer goes with this.
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Just wanted to post to say that I am still alive and planning things out, just been busy with school and stuff.
I found some small optimizations and time savers:
http://gyazo.com/17462c3aa3a628801a3a766e8acb83a8 You can make it to the top of MM in talon trot. Just found this now actually, randomly decided to test it again. This should be faster than the other method.
Treasure Trove Cove:
I did a rough timing on console of getting the alcove jiggy normally vs skipping the dance by flying. They look to be very close and I would have to TAS it to determine which is faster.
X jiggy would either be damage cancelled or collected in the water. Not sure which yet. Leaning towards damage cancel because you have to deathwarp at the end of the level anyways.
Freezeezy Peak
It may be faster by a small amount to get the Wozza jiggy during the final Boggy race.
If necessary health wise, you can likely take damage at the end of a beak bomb while heading towards the igloo to set up for the deathwarp at the end of the level.
Gobi's Valley
You can poop an egg into the first wall sphinx inside of Jinxy which saves a bit of time.
I am fairly certain I came up with a faster way to do the matching puzzle, and you can also use the mummy to your advantage to get little boosts across the room when you bounce off him. I don't know yet if this actually saves time but it could maybe be useful.
I want to do further testing on when is best to get the Gobi jiggy. Also I had the idea of shooting the boulder with eggs from a distance and collecting it with the turbo trainers to skip the dance.
Mad Monster Mansion:
Its about a second faster to get the 2 notes on the right side of the well after you exit it.
Rusty Bucket Bay: It is a couple seconds faster to do the code jiggy before the navigation room.
In the warehouse by the yellow jinjo I think it may be possible to talon trot slide jump from the jiggy to the box with the 4 notes on it. I have come close but haven't done enough testing yet.
Click Clock Wood:
It's faster to poop an egg to break the window in Fall.
It's faster to leave Nabnut's house through the window instead of the door because you can move immediately after you re enter the main area, whereas for the door you are forced to wait .4 seconds or so before you can move.
Lots of talon trot slide jumping is possible to cut corners and make paths shorter throughout the levels in general.
Right now I am trying to solidify the route and start planning out my resource usage. I intend to skip the egg note door by Dingpot. The eggs in the Grunty fight respawn extremely quickly and I think you could collect upwards of 20 eggs in the fight just in the downtime.
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Those are some neat finds anotheruser, I'll mess around with them a bit more.
Getting onto the music sheet without backflipping is indeed possible.
I've mostly been doing routing for the past couple of weeks and actually managed to improve the route by 30+ seconds.
Clipping out of CCW near the flower saves around a total of 30 seconds if you get it first try in each spring, summer, and autumn. Doing this voids you out and brings you back to the lobby and you can proceed directly to the next season. You don't lose your jinjos or notes doing this. I'll write up a route soon.
I found some other small things like pooping eggs for certain boxes and doors which save a small amount of time.
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RNG in this game is largely dependent on what frame you enter a loading zone, so if I needed to change something I could alter the section before the loading zone slightly and check the RNG. I may not be able to directly hex edit in everything but I can do certain portions the same.
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That's a cool find anotheruser, I think it would save time yeah.
I decided to move on from trying the backflip in spiral. I tried replicating the current TAS's inputs but it wasn't matching up with my position and camera angle because my movement is different. I will start doing TASes of individual levels and save the inputs to add in later if bizhawk is ever fixed.
I wanted to start with Gobi's because I think it looks the coolest, and I found a couple of nice strats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzLN2Q6Ba_4&feature=youtu.behttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtKKj5oliQA&list=UU2rAbfsMi9-0pbBAM5Q0-2Q
Both of these are doable real time as well. It is also possible to jump directly onto the first carpet in Jinxy while in talon trot, saving a bit of time.
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I know the physics are all weird on mupen but I cannot figure out this first backflip. Maybe someone can shed light on it here.
Here is my video up to that point: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f34prl3i817og0p/BK%20100%25%20%28USA%29.m64?dl=0
This must be played on Mupen64-rerecording-v2.exe (mupen reset recording)
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Stiv said you can actually make the final jump without ground pounding with his strat, so that's likely fastest.
I improved the MMM route for the TAS in the outer area: http://imgur.com/AWSG6Od
Some of the lines aren't exactly accurate but it should make sense.
Red -> Blue is a damage boost off a ghost. I wanted to do more but health is very tight for this level.
The blue line on the roof uses this strat to get up to the top floor of the mansion without the shock spring pad (saves 2 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBiZfm_USo&feature=youtu.be&t=3m50s
The light green line includes the new jump found to get on tumblar's house.
The yellow dots in the church area indicates you can get those two pots from the roof.
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That's interesting about RBB. If he got 9:14 for his actual level time, I bet 8:4x is possible with this new route I created that involves a clip Cronikeys found to get into Boom Box early: http://pastebin.com/wf2MhmDJ
This video http://youtu.be/Ef0mHJrr_ig?t=10m19s is likely is fastest method to get the jiggy on top of mumbo's mountain without talon trot. If it's possible to get it in talon trot it MAY be a bit faster though.
A few notes and updates:
Resetting after the MMM water switch cutscene is a bit faster. At some point before MMM in the spider web room you would activate the cauldron and after the hard reset, head to get the Clanker's Cavern witch switch jiggy, then activate the cauldron down the stairs, grab the mumbo token and use the cauldron to get back to FP.
I replaced the BGS tokens under the huts with this one and the one in Mumbo's Mountain behind the stonehenge area. If you deathwarp into Mumbo at the end of MM, it activates him and you can skip his text. Later on, you don't get stopped by him in BGS.
In order to completely skip it though you need to have 5 tokens. If not you will skip the "Hi, I'm Mumbo" and "You don't have enough tokens" text. Later on he will still stop you and give you the "You now have enough tokens text." So if you have 5 tokens in his hut in MM you completely skip his text. It's about 3 seconds lost to get the token and 3 seconds lost if Mumbo stops you, so they cancel each other out.
The tokens under the huts require a damage taken which means you need to get more health from dead flibbits, and clipping through the floor to get the tokens is actually sort of slow, because you need to clip back out too. It's likely best to get the notes as banjo in that area as well as the pink jinjo and leave the orange jinjo for last. Doing this means you can collect the flibbits, tanktup, orange jinjo, and croctus jiggies later for the croc to pick up and then deathwarp off a dragonfly. You can also shoot the croctus from far away over by Tanktup and save some time there.
Tumblar house jump should seamlessly be added into the route which is very nice, and should save 4 seconds or so.
I tried messing around with your winter strat with beakbombing the notes on the house to make the route different but I haven't been able to come up with anything obviously faster. I have an idea in mind but I will need to time it first.
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That's a neat strat in winter. I'll look at that route again when I get back from work today.
I think we should be okay for health in MMM at that point. We won't have beak bomb so zombie fluttering isn't an option but the damage witch switch is if we can get high enough. I can't think right now if you can get high enough to take fall damage but probably. We just need 5 health for FP to deathwarp in Wozza's.
EDIT: The MMM jump is possible on console. Good find!
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I haven't been able to make the MMM jump yet on console but I'll keep trying. It does look similar to leaf jump and I have gotten what looks like close to making the jump but not quite yet.
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That's a cool find for the honeycomb. It's probably a little faster to do that and quickdive next to snippets like you said.
I significantly improved the Gobi's Valley route for the Sphinx stuff and the rings: http://pastebin.com/sBTFbWyp
Doing this you can get all of the rings without flying, save 5 feathers, and reduce backtracking. It also looks really cool.
Kirk said he would help me this weekend with setting up his movement script, so progress might actually be made soon! I don't think it is a significant issue that the physics in mupen are a bit messy, because as far as I know, it only affects the first jump, and escaping Clanker's mouth which would not be in the TAS. Stiv and I will probably just start working on it now.
EDIT: holy crap anotheruser you're good at finding these things! I'll make sure to credit you for them all. As for the CC final jiggy underwater, i think Cronikeys has told me she tried to clip it and had no luck. I may try later because there's a clip in banjo tooie that gets the jiggy underwater in toxic waste from the opposite side, and the physics that make that possible may exist in banjo kazooie as well. Its probably very precise if possible.
For the MM witch switch, I will try later tasing it because it is possible to hit conga with an egg from the platform just to the right of the switch. He has to be beating his chest though and is very precise. I'm going to try hit the switch at the same time the final egg hits him and see if it could maybe skip a cutscene.
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I stumbled upon that little jump as well, and its pretty easy too. Could make for a time save for any%. I think for 100% I'm going to have to accept the loss from getting orange jinjo last and getting the dance. It's too much of a detour with the grate jump to get orange jinjo before pink. I'll play around with possible routes a bit more.
I want to retime fully the end of MM to determine more closely if deathwarping is worth it or not. Some things to consider with this:
- You have to get the mumbo token by the pink jinjo at the beginning of the level if you deathwarp
- Deathwarping into mumbo can activate him and you can skip a text box for BGS later. Mumbo will still talk to you but for only one text box. If you get all the mumbo tokens in MM he won't talk to you at all in BGS, but the mumbo token is a 4 second detour and I don't think it's worth it.
EDIT: I finally determined that the bolt cycle is near perfect jumping from the top of the bolt platform to the pipe with the 4 notes. Here is the route I came up with that incorporates both that jump and the one Sami uses to the honeycomb grate: http://pastebin.com/9c0cex9Z
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Maybe someone can clear this up since I wasn't around when the current TAS was being made.
I saw this post here http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3114&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1200 by Sami a while back where he says the RBB game time is 9:14 but the submission time says 9:37. I am confused about this. I compared real time in the TAS video to real time for when Stiv got 9:31 and 9:37 seems accurate. Just wondering where 9:23 and then 9:14 came from.
I checked out your notes Kirk for MM and considered deathwarping in 100% but it seems slower because you have to take 4 damage instead of 3.
After a bit of testing, it seems as though it will be faster in BGS to collect the notes and mumbo tokens and pink jinjo in the hut area as Banjo and leave the flibbits, turtle, jinjo, and croctus jiggies for the croc to collect then die off the nearby dragonfly. This skips 3 extra jiggy jigs.
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Thanks Kirk, I'll definitely check those things out.
I found a jump in Clanker's that should save time in any% as well and speed up the first room. If you are looking at the entrance to the level, jump on top of the pipe first and grab the mumbo token, then grab the 4 notes on the right side. Backtrack to the second note on that side from the entrance and from there you can do a talon trot slide jump directly to the first note on the other side. Not sure what this will do to Gloop and the tooth cycle but I think the TAS should be okay with it and manage to get an even earlier cycle with this jump.
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I checked and it definitely wouldn't be worth it to get the Boggy jiggy in the air. Even if you recoil off a button or snowman toward that direction it would be too far out of the way and a waste of feathers.
I just noticed today that in the current TAS in Clanker's Cavern, Sami makes the jump to the honeycomb grate without getting knocked down by the ratatat rap destroying the grate. I hope this is not a mupen only thing but it looks legit. He only manages to get 8:45 though and Stiv has gotten 8:38. This is likely because Stiv deathwarps and Sami had to wait for some cycles. With a bit better routing I'd imagine this level could get below 8:30 game time, and I'll see what I can come up with today.
EDIT: I made the jump to the honeycomb in real time on console without breaking the grate. Still considering multiple possible routes for this level including entering Clanker without raising him first.
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The current TAS also beak bombs the snowmen in a different order, and there's no point in collecting that mumbo token in flight because you can get it during the race. For the sliding to be faster you would have to be way farther away from mumbo's. The current TAS likely waits to beak bomb because there is a forced delay after a cutscene in which you cannot beak bomb.
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I just timed Rusty Bucket Bay and found that the staircase clip found by Cronikeys a while back is actually faster if used to enter the Boom Box room early.
Here is the route http://pastebin.com/wf2MhmDJ
Additionally, it is a few seconds faster to use the stair (edge) clip in Click Clock Wood Fall to void out and appear in the lobby.
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I see, yeah that's really interesting. If that jump is possible it would save quite a nice chunk of time. Of course, kirk was testing that on mupen so who knows if that's console accurate or not.
Also, I would like to figure out how this glitch works http://www.twitch.tv/stivitybobo/c/1855581
I tried to replicate it and managed to get it to work after a bit of random jumping around but I'm not sure exactly what causes it. I would love to use this in the TAS to avoid having to run over to that orange pad.
As for beak bombing with the snow, there might be a use for it other than what was used in the current TAS, but I'm not sure where. I have the beak bomb off the cliff towards the igloo using the snow to retain the horizontal speed and that saved a few seconds over beak bombing up right and then beak bomb again straight for the entrance to the igloo itself.
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AnotherUser wrote:
wow, didn't know about CC tail thing. That must be very precise.
Yeah it took me over 100 eggs on console to even just get 1 to hit, and you need 3 to break it.
AnotherUser wrote:
GV:
-If it saves time, maybe before doing rubee clip, collect a note or two on the pyramid so when turbo trainer-ing up the pyramid you can make "shortcuts".
I don't climb the pyramid in the route at all before Rubee clip. I routed it so that you hit the switch at the bottom to start the timer and then collect the notes in the middle area circling around back towards the matching puzzle pyramid and then land on the flight pad down there. With the 6 or 7 notes I put in the route there, you can just BARELY make the top of the pyramid as the gate is closing.
AnotherUser wrote:
Not sure, although it would likely not be useful
AnotherUser wrote:
-Depending on the feather count, maybe get the boggy jiggy in flight while on the way to the igloo? (I'm thinking of a perfect beak bomb downward then retain flight and fly to igloo.)
Unfortunately if you don't collect the Boggy jiggy before you transform into the walrus, Boggy will not be there to race you. I just changed that in the pastebin.
AnotherUser wrote:
-So it's not possible to get the 4 notes in front of Wozza's during the boggy race in one go?
I wasn't sure about this part but I just realized I forgot to add in collecting the 4 notes around the present during the race, so those 4 notes by Wozza's may end up all being collected as BK. I'm fairly confident you should be able to get them all during the races though
AnotherUser wrote:
-I wonder if the fly under freezeezy clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a294jUuStB4) to maybe deathwarp at a location where the jiggy dance can be skipped...though it's unlikely since there's not enough health to get back out if you collect the honeycomb.
Likely not useful.
AnotherUser wrote:
Is there any update on the "pause buffering" thing with talon trot that KirkQ used to try to get CC puzzle early and exiting CCW puzzle room more quickly? Does this trick only work with talon trot? I was wondering if in spiral mountain for any%, this thing can be used to get on the tree and pause buffer with rat-a-tat rap and get onto the mountain early. (If this works, then for 100% route, after the water honeycomb: tree, waterfall, stumps, go to tree that's closest to banjo's house, do trick)
I'm not sure what this pause buffering does. If you're talking about a jump in talon trot, the technique "talon trot slide jump" comes to mind but I don't know where pause buffering would come into play.
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Hey all,
Stivitybobo and I are interested in doing a new 100% TAS of this game, implementing many of the new tricks and timesavers found since Sami's video.
We are aware that emulation for this game is sketchy with mupen and Cronikeys has informed me that she and some others are working on a new version of bizhawk at the moment. Thus we are mostly routing and planning things out while we wait for that to be released.
The current 100% world record by Stiv is 2:10:34 real time (with skipping cutscenes and the new furnace fun skip) and gets a 2:03:12 game time. Sami's TAS got 2:00:28 game time, and I would imagine a new TAS implementing various tricks could get low 1:5x or possibly even sub 1:50 game time.
Much of the current 100% RTA route from Stiv's world record will stay the same with a few small changes, but most of the differences will be within Gobi's Valley and Freezeezy Peak after incorporating Rubee Pyramid early. Both levels will have significant route changes. I have a good idea of what the routes would be for the most part, and I have my thoughts on Gobi's Valley here: http://pastebin.com/sBTFbWyp
Though this is a late response and this may already be known, @anotheruser it is possible to shoot 3 eggs from the middle of clanker's tail to shoot out the grate above the honeycomb. Very precise but possible. Something I have yet to test is the possibility of making it with a talon trot slide jump. Implementing this jump would mean it is the last thing you do before snippets and you would have to watch the jiggy dance for the jinjo jiggy. If we can come up with a way to get a fast cycle on the bolt hole and collect the 4 notes on the pipe by the 2 eggs and mumbo token, the honeycomb jump may be slightly faster than ending the jinjos on pink. (There is a way to jump from the top bolt platform directly to the pipe with the 4 notes though it is hard and I'm not sure if you can make the bolt cycle in time). I will test these things out soon if someone else doesn't first.
Any thoughts and criticism is welcomed. It would be nice to get a lot of opinions because, even though Stiv and I have experience running banjo games RTA, TASers may come up with ideas we haven't thought of! I will write up a pastebin of my idea of a Freezeezy Peak route soon and post it here. I will probably mass everything into one large pastebin once we figure a few more things out.
EDIT: I wrote up a possible Frezeezy Peak route here: http://pastebin.com/gwYQG40T
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Interestingly enough, this video is a modification of a similar glitch that was accidentally discovered by Madtaz64.
He was practicing the clockwork shot for the jail jinjo in Terrydactyland by Wumba's on emulator. He collected the jinjo which happened to be his first jinjo, and it activated both the jinjo cutscene and the gate opening cutscene at the same time. The clockwork was then warped to jinjo village.
This glitch works the same way really, the *first cheato page collected* cutscene and the *bridge raising* cutscene activate at the same time, and it warps banjo to Grunty's Lair.
Cronikeys tested a few other ideas but they didn't work, and unfortunately the warps found wouldn't be used in speedruns but it is still cool nonetheless :)
