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Silent_Slayers wrote:
Sorry, I stated it as common sense.
How is that common sense? That's just your opinion. Other people, like myself enjoyed the video. I'm not saying your opinion of not liking movie is wrong, but saying 51 frames is not worthy of submission is a little harsh when some new stuff are implicated and I found the camera new and exciting.
Uuh... common sense as in 'waste of time', or 'come back later with further improvement'. Because as it is now, this is just another 0-star run, which eventually will be obsoleted by someone else.
If we have accepted smaller improvements before it doesn't automatically mean that this has to be accepted. Try to be rational.
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XIF wrote:
I think you all are nuts. I really enjoyed the camera angles. At the very least it was a refreshing experience over the past use since it was all backwards for the most part. The only one I didnt enjoy was when he wasnt visible in BitFS, but as someone stated I can imagine a newb being impressed by the invisible navigation, so I can hardly fault it. It was a nice improvement, and I actually enjoyed the camera angles, and I would be legitimately upset if this were not published over camera angles.
yes vot... post[/i]
Different doesn't always mean good. I thought most of it was good until we started playing a game I'd like to call Super Brick Wall 64.
51 frames of improvement is not worth a submission. Chances are that there are no more 'Not another bowser level improvement', so I suggest you go back and refine what you have done. My guess is that this game has about 5000-6000 frames of optimized/unhexed input, so this shouldn't be such a big deal.
And IF you find some wtfomglolzbbq improvement that hottifies the run by a million times but saves like 10 frames, I doubt it will be accepted for publication alone. Unless, ofc, every naïve and ignorant mind that dwells this site goes 'dude this sucked BUT NICE IMPROVEMENT'.
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Cpadolf wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Although it's kinda obsoleted by another smv which no longer is in our possession
What do you mean by this?
I accidently overwrote both the real smv and the backup smv, which requires insane amounts of moron to do. And unfortunately, I hadn't sent it to anyone yet, so I could not badger them for the smv back =/
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Since we are working on a new route Taco and I decided to post our LN WIP. Although it's kinda obsoleted by another smv which no longer is in our possession, I'll just go ahead and roughly describe the differences in those 2 smv's.
-Jumping through the Spazer door to save real-time frames.
-Jumping through the door leading to mini-Kraid's room to remove lagframes.
-Improving the Kraidfight by 9 frames through standing closer to the spikes before the first jump.
-Improving the cwj after Ice Beam by 3 frames.
-Avoiding the stutter before the green bubble room to save real-time frames.
-The Wave Beam area is frigging sweet. Be sure not to miss it. (Before you ask, it was 4 frames faster than the morphball method)
-Nothing has been changed in LN, the obsoleting smv stopped right after the elevator-ride.
The obsoleting smv was about 98 real-time frames and 15 ingame frames faster than this one. Be sure to notice, that when the smv ends we are already more than 900 ingame frames ahead of Hero of the Day. I cannot remember the real number, and can't be arsed to check, but we never expected to reach that number so quickly.
Also, the super missile on the Ki-hunter was used because we thought it was mandatory for it to be used to be able to refill in that room, NameSpoofer and Cpadolf proved us wrong here.
Anyways. Enjoy.
Edit: Uuuh, forgot to mention we redid because we decided to aim for real-time, in the making of the ingame smv we saw the huge gains and thought 900 was easier than we expected it to be.
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Cpadolf wrote:
Kriole wrote:
unless I have overlooked something; be sure to inform me about that.
Well you'd have to sacrifice some time from having less health in LN, some time from having to restock on PB's before ridley (and possibly a little in tourian too), and I think the pipebug refills would take a little longer. But 600ish frames sounds pretty resonable at least.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot the pillarshinespark skip.
Power bombs for tourian will be no problem, the metroids will drop enough power bombs. Also, not having ice beam for pre-ridley should save some time.
moozooh wrote:
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I took the time and compared the two routes with different roomstrategy smv's. This is my conclusion:
Spazer take 1484 realtime frames to collect (Powerrangers), skipping spazer costs 150 frames (Taco).
Kagoball room with the PB tank takes 1320 frames to collect (NameSpoofer), skipping the tank costs 723 frames (HotD).
Ridley with waveshields costs 1680 frames (RBOv4), Ridley with spazer/wave/ice costs 2600 frames (common sense).
Mother brain with waveshields costs 4340 (Saturn), MB with spazer/wave/ice costs 3600 frames (common sense).
Now, having speedbooster for both Kraid and Ice Beam also gives a slight gain, Kraid's lair is about 220 frames, and Ice Beam I just approximated to 80 frames.
Now comparing the gains vs the losses.
Skipping Spazer: 1484 - 150 = +1334 realtime frames
Ridley PB tank: 723 - 1320 = -597 realtime frames
Ridley: 2600 - 1680 = +920 realtime frames
Mother Brain: 3600 - 4340 = -740 realtime frames
That gives 917 realtime frames. Now taking away the pausescreen (164 frames), then adding the 300 frames for Ice Beam and Kraid's lair gives 1053 realtime frame gain. Then we have to take away a little for the pipebug refill, let's say 45 frames. So ultimately, this new route would be 1008 frames faster, unless I have overlooked something; be sure to inform me about that.
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hero of the day wrote:
160x10=1600/60 is 26.5 seconds plus 3.5 more seconds to kill with 10 super missiles. The total fight is around 30 seconds long.
Using the charge/wave/ice/spazer is takes 40 shots at exactly 1 second a shot. Including the 10 super missiles the fight would be about 44 seconds long.
Including the fact that if you use a super missile between every powerbombshield, the super missiles only costs 2-3 frames to shoot, not 20. That puts it down to 27 seconds. And also, using the wave beam only allows you to keep some missiles... for whatever reason you'd want them.
However, the problem is the pausescreen. It should cost around 3-4 seconds, which puts the gain down to 13 seconds only. During the motherbrain fight you have to somehow avoid losing 13 seconds. It should actually not be that very hard.
Although spazer does save pretty much time when it comes to refilling in norfair, this could be substituted with the missiles which are not used in the room before Ridley.
It works out nicely, the only thing one needs to test is Mother Brain with powerbombshields then compare it to the real mojo.
Edit: I did some research how much powerbombshielding costs framewase. Ingame it's about 160, with a super missile inbetween. Realtime its 185 with a super missile inbetween.
On another note, skipping spazer avoids 2 door transitions.
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hero of the day wrote:
Saturn,
[new route stuff]
When facing Ridley, you have 0 power bombs, unless you refill with extreme delay, and with that pack you only have 5. Thus only causing 6000 damage. The damage difference between a powerbombshield and a charged spazer/wave/ice is not that huge, with about 160 frames for the powerbombshield (120 for charging, about 40 for the shots to connect and realtime lag) it only causes 7,5 damage/frame, whereas spazer/wave/ice does 5 damage/frame.
Also, when facing motherbrain you have to add a pausescreen to turn off ice for the powerbombshields, unless you use power bombs to kill metroids which then leaves you with close to 0 power bombs. Plus the fact that the powerbombshields probably need alot more time to connect, since not all 4 of them can hit at all time (MB's body is in the way for the one coming from the lower left). Thus, this new route is extremely sketchy, given the fact that I and Taco have already been toying around with LN with only 200 energy, the delays done there are about as big as the savings on Kraid Lair with SB. Even if it IS faster, the delays from refilling will make up for the lost super missiles from mini-kraid.
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hero of the day wrote:
The problem is not getting more speed. If you look at the smv I posted, I could have held the run button for much longer. The issue is that once your speed is too high, a CWJ becomes damn near impossible. I was thinking that if the right positioning was somehow found, the CWJ would be possible even with the much higher speed.
Even if you reached a speed of 2.32xxx, you'd have to start running from the room before, which definately is out of question. I managed to get a speed of 2.08192, which gives the lowest possible initial jump height. And no, it didn't work.
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Botwoonskip
Unfortunately I cannot remember the author, but Kejardon found the application.
Forgot to mention that you need to hold right for a very long time after the smv finishes.
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Solon wrote:
Just have one question, Kriole: Did you consider getting to the Wrecked Ship backwards? It seems to me that doing so would've been faster, considering that you were fairly close to the elevator after getting the Plasma Beam. I know you said the run was just for entertainment, but I'm curious.
I remember thinking of this long ago, unfortunately, I forgot in the process of making the smv. But I guess it's no biggie really.
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Saturn wrote:
The biggest mistake was to fight Crocomire. That way you lose your ~1900 frame lead over my old RBO after Ridley, and end up being even around 1 whole minute slower when entering the big snail room the first time. It was very obvious that the Grapple Beam would never save the time it takes for the collection, so I'm somewhat surprised you still decided to do it.
I hope you are fully aware of the fact that I created this run for entertainment purposes, and as I already said in my post earlier, I don't want people badgering me for improvements. I guess it's ok for people to be poking fun at my ignorance, but itemcollection is totally out of question here. The route itself is incredibly ineffective with very much backtracking.
Also, the Grapple Beam was a bit of an impulsive move, and I even pondered if I should have turned it into a 100% RBO run. But I wouldn't have the motivation for that anyways, given the fact that I'd have to revisit places I've already been to, just to pick up loose Missile Packs. I might create one eventually, but that will have to wait until all my major projects are finished. Then I will also have the time to fully optimize it (and plan, for that matter).
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My RBOv4 is done. Actually first ever TASed RBO which is finished. And my first ever TASed run of Super Metroid which I finished. Doubleyay.
Get it here
Level of optimization is kinda... ok I guess. You may ask yourselves why the fudge I pick up so many energy tanks. That's because they barely cost any ingame time to pick up, and save me the hassle of wtf-optimizing stuff. (Without the Kraid E-tank I'd have to make the Metroids in Tourian drop atleast 55 energy each, where the highest I got after about 2 hours of work was 45)
The finish time is just over 34 minutes. Sub-30 might be possible with tons of optimization. Let's see what I and Taco muster in our upcoming RBO.
Please don't badger me about things being improvable. Cause I obviously did not spend much time on this run. (I picked it up 2 days ago, redid after Ridley because of energy-issues)
Well then. Enjoy =)
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I'd like to introduce Edgehogging:
It's a trick that is both incredibly ugly, rarely useful AND pretty obvious. (Actually surprised noone else has thought of it =/)
By comparing these two smv's, at pre-pre botwoon, one of the few places where this trick actually is really useful:
With EdgehoggingWithout Edgehogging
you can see that edgehogging in this particular place saves 4 frames. In other commonly used places it saves about ~1 frame every application. The reason to why it saves 4 frames here is because the difference in vertical speed is huge, since the roof is so low that you have barely any room to jump. Edgehogging treats samus as if she would be falling the whole time, thus getting max vertical speed once the bombblock is cleared.
Cpadolf wrote:
I think I made one of the two parts of the Super Missile blow up while the second one kept going, at least an explosion appears at the back of the super but it keeps going and opens a door.
This happened to me while TASing the Super Metroid Gravy hack (I think it was). The super missile passed through a Super Missile block, and opened a red door behind it.
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Incredible WIP really, watched it 3 times already.
There are two things that crossed my mind though:
The e-tank after Ridley, why didn't just morph into the tunnel with some speed?
Morph ball bomb jumping is used pretty frequently, is there any reason/restriction that doesn't allow you to use the spring ball extension on all of them?
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Cpadolf wrote:
I have some suggestions for improvements on this small part though. You didn't seem to have any problems with health, so trying to manipulate the small energyball into a missile (might be hard while still getting the somewhat rare big energy ball from the skree) would save time if you succeed. The mockball to spazer beam can be improved by using a missile to shoot the block there, instead of using a normal beam shot (I think you know about that). After spazer you could take a damageboost from one of the spikes coming from the cactus while still grabbing a super missile, you only need to manipulate it so that it shoots them fast enough.
We are very well aware of these improvements, unfortunately certain conditions did not allow us to execute these tricks:
Getting below 30 energy will make all monsters drop energy, until you have above 50 energy again. Thus a missile was impossible to manipulate.
No missiles = no missile on the debris (obviously).
The cactus is a bit tricky, there is a margin of frames you can manipulate until the trick does not save time anymore, unfortunately, none of these gave us the wanted the result.
So we had to cut back some, while still achieving good results =)
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hero of the day wrote:
behold! a white drayon
The name of the smv sure did give me false hope, the phenomenom is kinda particular anyhow.
Taco and I just finished Kraid and managed to improve the fight by about 40 frames.
Allow me to explain how:
Upon shooting Kraid, he first opens his mouth for about 3-4 frames, closes it and waits about 60 frames before he opens it again. But if a missile is fired during this 3-4 frame gap, Kraid will open his mouth almost without any delay at all. Thus allowing the supermissiles to be fired way earlier.
This is somewhat a "mini-WIP"; the discovery is well worth the mention.
Enjoy.
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ICheatAtGolf wrote:
I remember watching an SMV posted by Hero that shows him jumping over the speed blocks, shooting (with wave), and speed balling through the door, all without losing horizontal speed. Wouldn't this method be faster than any of the above?
He did not have max-speed while mockballing, but the probability that it is faster is pretty high.
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Saturn wrote:
I made some good progress on SM-Redesign recently and will release a new WIP in the next month or two, as said before already. Though I can't tell at which point I'm at exactly, since it should be a secret until the new WIP is out, for a bigger surprise.
Directly quoted from the Super Metroid thread, 10 days ago.
