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Zanoab wrote:
That is incredible. I didn't expect it to be that fast.
Do you know if the main RNG plays a role in TM? If so, maybe a burning a few somewhere before the tournament could yield different results.
I have no idea what should be done. There must be a way to optimize it a little more but I have no clue where to start looking. I doubt people would notice a few saved frames during TM anyways.
The main RNG is not used at all in TM. It's completely frozen. Like during shopping or in menu. That's why I could still go on with the run and hex-edit better matchs later if I can improve them.
From what I can see, everything is based on the ingame timer + if the opponent can fight one of your card, most of the time he'll do it with a stronger one instead of just fliping it with any card.
I think the main idea would be to try every card at every position with more or less delay. If there's a fight => no good. If not proceed. When the match end, if we win, register the time and restart. Save the best time. I haven't a big experience in scripting but unfortunately that seems to be a very complex and time consuming algorithm ?
I know nobody would notice a few frames saved in TM but it's like for starting ATB. I could spend ages trying to find a way to set the RNG correctly in order to have for exemple just a 10 frames delay before acting, when taking the first RNG would gave me a 30 frames delay. Nobody would notice the 20 frames difference but it's just what felt right ;)
EDIT : @antd : the 2 guards.
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Indeed.
The two first matchs are mandatory wins, but I'll need the Rebirth Ring later so I need to win the third one too.
The expectation is just to finish the match as quickly as possible by a win.
- The emplacement of the rocks on the board seems to be set in stone for the first match, but the number and emplacement of rocks for match 2 and 3 are depending on the frame you end the previous match.
- The opponent's cards and the coin toss (+the opponent first move if he wins the coin toss) are based on the frame you select confirm.
- Every other opponent moves are based on what card you put, where you put it, and what frame you put it here.
In order of priority to be the fastest possible :
- The most important thing is to avoid a fight between two cards which is extremely time consuming.
- Less card fliping possible.
- If possible, having the opponent chose the first card of his deck because it takes more than 10 frames to go to the fifth card for exemple.
So basically, in a ideal world, the opponent win the coin toss, select the first card of his deck each time, and we just put our card on the board without interacting, and I flip one of his card with my last one.
This is the currently fastest I managed to get : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdG7fmZnMXg
and savestate at the start of the first match for those willing to help, I really appreciate it. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KNA7Q0CT
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Hmmm. Sorry for double posting again but I'm gonna need your help.
I'm at the Tetra Master Championship in Treno and while it's pretty easy to manipulate a win, optimizing it may be near to impossible without brute forcing.
However I've no idea how to write such a lua script, it's well above my knowledge.
I've made a test for the two first matchs and even if they're pretty decent, I've only used trial and error so it's not optimal at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew3B5MW0KEw
The Random Numbers Table doesn't seem to be used since the pointer is frozen during a game, but the coin toss and every opponent actions seem to be based on the frame you press X to confirm your last action (in addition to what card you choose and where you put it of course).
Any help ?
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antd wrote:
Might be SRAM, I don't know. I just need to go very far in the game in order to perform the glitch. Then I can start a new game which will be the part that people want to watch.
No save corruption though. In fact it doesn't require any saving. This is more interesting :D
Do you mean resetting the game with L1+L2+R1+R2+Start+Select after performing the glitch ?
If yes I'm not sure it would be allowed since it's not from power on : /
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WIP until the end of Disc 2
Changes made : Not taking Choco (~39 seconds saved in these Discs, a little bit will be lost in Disc 3)
Not Buying the Thunder Gloves in Cleyra (~1 second saved)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NFI7QXTV
Savestate 1 : After learning Limit Glove, so you can see I don't take Choco and go to Gizamaluke Grotto by foot.
Savestate 2 : Start of Disc 2
Savestate 3 : Start of the Outer Continent where the last WIP ended.
EDIT : To Disc Swap from Disc 1 to Disc 2 properly : Open CD Case on frame 456758 and Close CD Case on frame 456775.
EDIT 2 : Yeah ! One Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiillion frames ^^
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1327/onemillion.png
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Tub wrote:
Lil_Gecko wrote:
I'll spare you the WIP since there's nothing interesting in it except dialogues and walking around the World Map.
And yet, you managed to gain time on the japanese TAS? How?
Most of it comes from a way faster dialogues skipping.
Some of the chests he opens are skipped because they're unnecessary.
Better RNG Manipulation to avoid random encounters and faster route to reach the Black Mages Village.
Faster Menu Equiping. (He goes from Zidane to Vivi then back to Zidane for abilities, where it's obviously faster to do Vivi then Zidane to avoid a back and forth)
Faster Shopping in BM Village. (The order in which he purchases items doesn't make sense at all).
I may forget some minor stuffs but that's pretty much it.
EDIT : However if someone speaks japanese, he wrote some explanations while in Condie Petie that may be interesting, but I can't understand a single thing so any help would be appreciated. I'll post the text later if someone is willing to translate it.
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Officially reached the 10 minutes ahead of the japanese TAS mark after getting Eiko.
I'll spare you the WIP since there's nothing interesting in it except dialogues and walking around the World Map.
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For you're saving problem I got the solution.
After you saved, go to "Configuration" -> "Memory Cards"
Then simply Copy/Paste the newly made save. That way the memory card will register the save you pasted. It's not very convenient but it works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2ctwpFiFc
However, I've never experienced trouble with savestates so I can't help you with that.
The only thing I can see is what FractalFusion already said. Savestates from non movie won't work with movie and savestates from movie will only work with movie having the same name as the savestate.
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Holly %*$ !!
It appears that lady luck is on my side ^^
In Alexandria Castle there are those turning platforms where you have to wait before jumping on it.
Now the RNG is moving faster here, when you're moving than when you're standing still, so by running in circle while waiting for the platform you can make the RNG go way further without wasting time. That leaves the possibility of about 230 differents RN for the Beatrix fight reachable without wasting time. One of the latest was the fastest one and appears strangely familiar to me.
Yep, I catch up with the RNG from the old WIP ^^
As no tricky lag frame showed up, I was able to hex-edit all of Alexandria Castle from Beatrix INCLUDING THE BATTLES which would have take me days to reoptimized otherwise.
The sneaky lag frame decided to show up on the World Map but that's really no big deal as Lani's fight is extremely easy to set up.
So big YEAH ! Should be back in Condie Petie before 2011 ends ^^
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Zowayix wrote:
Can someone tell me why the glitch isn't possible in YI2?
I've followed the main SMW thread for a long time and I still can make absolutely no sense out of this glitch (although I can easily understand the goal sphere and goal tape glitches in the other run).
If I understood it correctly, you need a cape to set up the glitch.
And the earliest one you can find is on YI3, using PowerUp Incrementation.
Edit : Yes vote of course btw.
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Thanks for the support Dada ;)
Back to fighting Zorn and Thorn in Alexandria Castle.
All the bosses fights' strategies remain the same but I'm pretty amazed by the dumb luck I had with the Random Numbers on the previous WIP.
It was way harder to set up this time and a little bit more frames consuming.
All in all, ~2500 frames are saved at that point.
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Once upon a time...
There was this guy named Zidane. He reached Condie Petie and ask Choco to help him move faster. He trusted what he saw pretty easily so, he gets out of tracks to find Choco, spend some time finding a gysahl green in his bagpack and figured out that his little friend only help him save 2-3 seconds at best. Which was more or less the time he spent picking up the gysahl green in the first place. So Choco was not necessary there. No big deal. He's gonna help him later. Yeah but the second gysahl green he picked up was a 5-6 seconds detour. Which is more or less what Choco is going to help him save once again...
At that precise moment, he realised he spent ~40 seconds to go to Chocobo Forest to allow Choco to help him later, and Choco won't help him at all...
So he was really pissed at himself for not checking that earlier and went back to where he learned Limit Glove, said "F*ck you Choco" and moved on to the Gizamaluke's Grotto by foot...
I can pretty much hex-edit all the travels with minor change for the random encounters, but obviously all the fights have to be redone. But I can't let my stupid mistake make me lose 30~40 seconds.
So just saying, don't expect Disc 2 too soon.
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Sure but there's nothing really interesting in it.
It's just a bunch of dialogue skips, walking around and FMVs. Just one fight against Lani who goes down in one hit.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OFTO1AJT
Savestate at Pinnacle Rocks inside.
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DarkKobold wrote:
Technically speaking, those 17 frames aren't lost - since the TAS won't sync or even really exist without them. Hex editing memory is a big no-no.
Yeah I know, I've just express myself badly. My english is not what it used to be :p
I just meant that the Disc Swap should last 17 frames longer in order to work properly. Of course the current WIP is with the proper Disc Swap and no hex-editing.
exileut wrote:
Based on your time for disc 1 is 8 hours possible for the finished product?
I'm currently around 8min40 ahead of the japanese TAS which ends up in 7h59, so I'm 99.99% positive that sub 8h will be done. Sub 7h45 seems possible too. But I won't know for sure until way later.
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WIP + savestate at the start of Disc 2 :
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RJCCU92A
Glad to be done with this part. I usually love to manipulate luck but those battles were a real pain in the ass...
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DarkKobold wrote:
I'm sorry for chiming in late - but how do you do the disc swap?
In my FF8 TAS, the only way I could get it to not display the "WRONG DISC" screen was this process:
Wait until the swap-disc image had fully loaded.
Open the CD case - Frame advance 10-20 times - Insert new CD - Frame advance 10-20 times - press start.
I probably lost a second or two each transition, but having disc swap errors in the TAS is far worse than losing a couple seconds.
THANKS A LOT DarkKobold !!!
That was just that.
If you Disc Swap too early, it works but as I mentionned the 4 adresses that should register the Disc Change aren't changed so the game still thinks we're in Disc 1.
Using DarkKobold method, the 4 adresses now registered the change and everything works.
Thank you sooooooooo much.
And Also thanks Funnyhair for taking the time to check it.
EDIT : I was waiting for the swap-disc image to be fully displayed then Swap immediatly. In fact for the game to register it, you need to wait for the swap-disc image to be fully displayed, Open CD case/Insert Disc, and wait 13 frames before closing the CD case and there is no need to press X anymore.
It ends up losing 17 frames but it's indeed WAAAAAAAAAAAY better than having Disc Swap error to fix.
EDIT 2 : Luckily enough the RNG is not moving during Disc Swap, so by just adding those 17 blank frames and 1 frame of lag that mysteriously disappear in Cleyra, everything hex-edit perfectly, so I don't even have anything to redo.
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Technically, editing memory is against the rules. In any and all form.
Yeah that's why I made the edit. That worried me a little bit.
However, if it's a proven emulator bug (the console properly handles the FMV without needing a save after the swap, for example), you might have a decent case explaining what you're doing, and the memory edit serves to improve emulation accuracy.
I don't remember having this problem when I played it on a console a while ago, but I'm 99% confident that I use Moogle everytime I crossed one so that doesn't help. If somebody is willing to give this a shot, playing on a console from Disc Swap to Cleyra without saving/reloading to see what happens.
But it's still a memory edit. One that a user must make themselves when running your movie.
That can be done with a simple lua script, so the user launch it with the movie and has nothing else to do than swaping Disc but still I understand : /
In any case, we might want to point this oddity out to those currently working on the emulator. It would be preferable to have the emulator do what it's supposed to, rather than having it up to the user to manually affect the memory.
But if the actual console also fails in this case, then there isn't a problem -- Save and reload from memory card. If the console has no trouble, bug the emulator developers.
Yep. That along with the annoying background sound. Any name I should talk to ?
Also, Save and Reload from Memory Card is also a problem, since you can't just save and reset with L1+L2+R1+R2+Start+Select as psxjin won't see your save on the memory card. You have to use the Reset CPU from the emulator, which ends the movie.
As for whether the memory edit workaround will be accepted due to poor emulation... I'm not a judge or an admin around here. I'll let them answer. But I felt you wanted thoughts from someone while we wait for the right person to come post.
Yeah. Thanks for taking the time to answer, I appreciate it.
EDIT : Anyway, still moving on a little bit, just in case.
Before fighting Soldier in Cleyra's Trunk :
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Wonderful news guys !
After spending quite some time looking through the memory I found out the problem.
I don't know if it comes from the Disc Swap or what but the memory actually never register that we've reached Disc 2, so it plays the game like normal but is unable to load FMV.
When you're in Disc 1 those adresses have those values :
0x74344,2u = 31974;
0x74348,2u = 20559;
0x7434A,2u = 20037;
0x7434C,2u = 20041;
But when you reach Disc 2 it's supposed to change like this :
0x74344,2u = 62208;
0x74348,2u = 17747;
0x7434A,2u = 12369;
0x7434C,2u = 52;
which for some reason, didn't happen during Disc Swap : /
All you have to do to play normally is to change the value at those 4 adresses to set them with the value from Disc 2, at any moment during Disc 2 and you're good to go.
All of that just to say that I finally managed to load that damn FMV and can continue the TAS (also improved Gargan Roo by 3 seconds btw).
EDIT: It doesn't affect anything else in the game apart from being able to load the FMV, so I hope that manually edit those memory adresses isn't against the rules ?
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Thanks.
So the checksums are a match which concerns me even more.
As I mentionned to Dada in PM, I got a little (big ?) problem now.
I've reach Cleyra's Trunk and instead of the FMV, I got a black screen and nothing happens.
Current WIP + Savestate at Cleyra's Trunk entrance if you want to see what happens :
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J80NUMCX
The only way I've found to trigger the FMV is to save on the World Map. Reset PSXjin. Load the Save from Memory Card and then everything works as it should.
It goes without saying that this is not an option for the TAS.
Also as you can trigger the FMV I'm not sure it's an iso problem. I don't know.
If somebody has an idea, I'm all ears because as of now, I'm on hold : /
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While trying to hex-edit the WIP with the new Iso, I got a nice surprise.
By adding these 2 frames of delay, I figured that the conversation around the table happens 100ish frames earlier than previously.
So it gave me enough motivation to restart from here with the new iso.
Despite losing half of those frame to learn Limit Glove, I got really faster Black Mages battles.
So I ended up finishing Disc 1 even 4 seconds faster.
So New Time from Power On to Disc Swap : 2h07m30s
Here is the complete new WIP from Disc 1 that should hopefully sync with your iso.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N43DGTY0
Along with Savestates :
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N6ES2FRI
Savestate 1 : Alexandria
Savestate 2 : Evil Forest
Savestate 3 : Ice Cavern
Savestate 4 : Dali
Savestate 5 : Lindblum
Savestate 6 : Qu's Marsh/Limit Glove
Savestate 7 : Gizamaluke's Grotto
Savestate 8 : South Gate
Savestate 9 : Burmecia
If you could confirm that it syncs it'd be appreciated.
Also, questions, comments, feedbacks, are welcome ;)
Last question, from now on, before starting Disc 2 how can I check that it will not have the same problem ? I'm not sure what checksum is, but how can I know it's a good one ?
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Since both antd and Dada versions seems to have these 2 extra frames and I found one with them too.
Since we're all using SLUS-01251.
I gotta assume mine's got the problem. But how can we verify that it's a bad dump or just a different version ?
It's really annoying since it syncs until there and syncs after this place if you use a savestate so it seems to be the only place where it's 2 frames faster for no reason and messed up everything... grrrr...
EDIT :If you add two blank frames it syncs till the telescope part where there's been 1 frame of lag (don't remember if it was more or less one). By taking care of that frame it will resync to the elevator. Well it seems less hopeless that I thought at first look but I'm still doubtful.
I have a few things to recheck in the Iifa Tree but the WIP will come right after it. Probably within this week.
Officially reached the 10 minutes ahead of the japanese TAS mark after getting Eiko.
I'll spare you the WIP since there's nothing interesting in it except dialogues and walking around the World Map.
2453 frames better.
WIP + savestate at the start of Disc 2 :
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RJCCU92A
Glad to be done with this part. I usually love to manipulate luck but those battles were a real pain in the ass...
