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Summarizing update: WIP72v6 (latest uploaded) improvement potentials regarding all the tricks we gathered (prespawnsubpostrick/respawntrick/halfpixelinterrupt etc)
1-1 through 2-1: nope
2-2 second screen: nope, because the bullet goes too fast, the NFL guys goes too slow, the inability to get damage much later to avoid waiting for second NFL to climb the last platform.
2-2 3rd screen: nope, because the first and last bitch is already optimized to it's full potential and subposes also already optimized (the last 3 enemies)
damage boosting through bullet guy with the 3 NFL players is at least 10.5px slower
3-1: nope, using the best subposes and positioning already.
3-2: update: we need to wait for proper birdy manipulation, and 1110 (on marker) is the best one.
4-1: Because of time rule and improvements, bullets are 1 frame faster and we need to sacrifice 0.5px and more for perfect dog and bullet guy spawn avoidment
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While I'm 2 frames faster with WIP 67v3 (User movie #15419723238486888), 2-2 3rd screen acts a bit differently.
Comparing WIP63v8 and WIP67v3:
8065(old) and 8062(new)
Slot4 (slot3 now) NFL player somewhy 1 frame (1.5px actually) slower, not sure if the slot change (knife tosser manipulated it I guess) affected it.
8372(old) and 8370(new)
see?
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Tests done without any success. Next plans:
1. 1-1 uses fastest route, subposes only manipulatable with extra delay. Since we already need it, I'm considering it sacrificing in first RWJ place (above a guard) or somehow further manipulate the tyson-tyson-platform place. edit: not a time-saver.
2. 2-1 and 2-2 early part "optimizing enemy positions" (by spawning them later or removing direction frames) didn't work, but I still see opportunity to use it for 2-2 3rd screen.edit: soon
3. Try delays with a pause... yes, I will waste a few rerecords with still low hope.edit: doesn't works with delays but position sacrifices, also note that jumps will be 1 frame longer so that's a rarely useful trick for half pixels (enemy subposes too)
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Scumtron wrote:
Is there any non-obvious reason for the 4-1 bat-boost across the gap? Jumping (to avoid hitting the shell) down to the small platform and climbing back up ought to be faster, pacifist or not.
Let me answer to this once I'm there again. Somewhere around my resyncing progresses a dog/cheetah were below me on that place, not letting me to touch the floor and jump to next platform to go for walljumping route. (And I think you are right, it should be few frames faster)
Progress so far. The "best" RNG we had was in WIP54 which let us jump over BITCH "instantly" (2.0px + 1 frame sacrifice?). Since we improved 14 frames beforehand using spawn delay and route change for 2-1 guardian of ladder tyson, most of our luck has "vanished".
Some notes that might become useful (and about to test them):
1. Most of the time (if not always), we can reposition delays to different levels for example removing 1 frame delay from 1-1 and add it to 1-2 boss level. Apart from different subposes, this would be benefitable if we get 0 subtimer for boss fight (feos' 3 frame save trick) OR changing (different) subposes
2. I believe that the (time) RNG alters nearly every enemies. At least I had enough situations where I manipulated things back (changing Nth slot subpos to desired value at same place with different in-game time) but it was still not working.
3. The combination of the 2 above is also different. For example in 3-1, using the very same position sacrifices differently (L,R instead R,L) can avoid or hit the knife tosser. However this specific situation "randomness" cause might be just because of that bird on the left screen.
feos' latest attempt WIP60 analysis:
Probably the best subposes to pull that off so far.
3-1 requires a delay (not implemented since it doesn't contains the 1 frame save by jumping later with better positioning to avoid the 3 bullets near the end) which would fuck up subposes and lesser bitch.
3-2 start is faster with feos' wallclimbing, but it's also affects our birdy and other positions. Not to mention that we need fewer X pos before boosting for first time, because we need to spawn delay right after the boost which usually ends on the same frame the lesser bitch spawns (so we need to land 1 frame earlier to go left to delay it)
3-2 can be continued with a half pixel sacrifice to let us jump on the platform to get through NFL (green runner guy) which loses 1 frame. Birdy also has a bad, "too low" X position to help us boost to next platform as fast as in our previous route
Things that's possibly manipulatable AND could help us:
1. repositioning delay points for better subposes (doing it now) edit: changes mostly Y sub poses, not really useful.
2. manipulate interrupt/spawn iterator? (for example spawning the dog 1 frame earlier on 3-1) I believe using a pause is different than sacrificing position. Any logical explanation for this? edit: not really works (pause efficiency is very low but helps in half pixel if everything magically combined).
3. while there's only a few, but spawning an enemy using spawn delay (moving back for 1 frame to spawn an enemy, like in 3-1 spawning the bird for second time) seems a good way to further delay other enemies (the knife guard on top after lesser bitch for example). edit: I can only squeeze 1.0 px which isn't enough to spawn dog earlier with an extra (sacrificial) spawn.
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"2 frames were saved by using the V-key for advancing textboxes which for some reason is faster than other keys"
Explain please. Is it because of the developer (VVVVV) or it's a scan code related thing (47/0x2F)?
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Current tests done and needs to be done (edit: updated with "current" rng in bold):
1-1: using spawn avoidment is 0.5 px slower12.5px faster. Route is nearly the same as previous one except an RWJ is now ineffecient probably (<-- next test). spawn delay doesn't helps (since we need to sacrifice position later then too). manipulating tyson "later" jump is impossible to maintain (tyson catches us). It looks unimprovable
2-1: too few objects -> spawn delay/avoidment isn't a time saver. also we have bad subposes now.
2-2 (1st,2nd screen): same as above
2-2 (3rd screen): we have enough objects to play with, but not enough to make "anything" time saver. currently trying to somehow delay 2nd or 3rd soldier to be able to reach the platform (bullet guy) as fast as possible without too many slowdowns/wait.
3-1: spawn delay friendly, but positions are so bad...
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User movie #14960471367664459 saved 1 frame on 3-1, but 3-2 knife tosser now attacks me.
Need to figure out optimal route (continuing this route with different subposes and adding a delay OR using previous route without adding any delay).
google spreadsheet comparison here as alwaysedit: User movie #14979094480289965 - adding a delay before 3-2 (end of 3-1) let me to pass knife tosser. Looks like inevitable to go without that delay. Should be placed better at 3-1 to somehow manipulate 3-2 first bird or slot 7 objects (or bullets on 3-1?)
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Looks like everything is fine until 2-2 end, since I already spawn enemies as fast as possible and avoid interrupts to get good boost for the platforms. Position sacrifices optimized to manipulate the next enemies in a row (slot 5 knife thrower, knife guard, bullet guy) at best.
So continuing to work on the next levels with all the interrupt jugglings and position tricks. Will update post on next WIP.
edit: User movie #14932283775578750 saved 2 frames by interrupt juggling the first three guy and another interrutp betwen dog and knife tosser. Probably improvable with 1 frame.
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0.133699 masterjunits faster (something like 3471 frames) and people say it's unentertaining, "boring", you guys are blind. Nevermind, keep up the good work megamasega Masterjun.
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feos wrote:
You mean, why does it sometimes turn back?
Yes. I need to remanipulate that so I can dodge the missile guy and move onward but with current improvements, I need to sacrifice 1.5 px before it's only works so far after the dog spawned on 4-1 after 1st knife thrower.
Probably I will try to add a magical delay before levels and see if I can find something.
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Tried various different positioning for 3-2 green soldier - bird - ladder - sword guy - missile guy, but the improvement always lost due to "random characters" lag frame or much worse missile guy positions.
Currently the dog at 4-1 follows us. If I sacrifice 1.5px, the missile guy sits on the corner... is the dog timer dependent, feos?
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Scumtron: nope, we have a bird there
Don't hesitate to write if you see or think of any bizarre thing that would manipulate anything. Currently I highly optimized a lot of things, mainly the subpositions (both X and Y subs for enemies), recoveries and positioning (hitbox lua + interrupt juggling) and compared routes with different half pixels.
edit: latest wip, 2 frames saved User movie #14507550577629635
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CoolKirby wrote:
On a side note, I didn't notice earlier that you said you made this game, Kaizoboy. I suppose you already knew exactly how the RNG worked and I didn't need to tell you, lol.
edit: I can't decide what he wanted to say, but I think he wanted to say that. So... Yes, he made this game.
OT:
I always wondered what would happen if someone develops a game for the sake of making a TAS of that game and "miraculously" lets the author to end the game with an idiot combination/fake "bad" condition. I doubt judges will debug the game to the very core especially if the author obfuscate it into a precompiled place.
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Hitbox lua seems more than enough for my purposes.
I had enough luck to remove the magical delay before 2-1 first black screen by adding it before the first Tyson (edit: and removing 1 empty frame for 2nd Tyson) which also manipulated the guardian of ladder Tyson. Adding the 1.0px RWJ improvement to 2-2 second screen and sacrificing 1.0px after the bird let me to save 2 frames overall before 2-3 boss.
Will edit post once I resynced/reoptimized as far as I can (currently need to remanipulate subposes for 3-1 fast recovery to platform from dog without that idiot knife thrower walking too close to us).
edit: currently a bird doesn't leave the screen 3-2 User movie #14376570241371213
edit2: magically fixed and improved (yes, it was subpos problem)
User movie #14488312589394167
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feos wrote:
Pasky13 made hitbox lua for NG1. It's not perfect, but it works. Do you want me to try make a new one?
Yes, I would like to ask you to do it (edit: ryu and enemy hitboxes lua). I will recheck everything again from start to make sure early improvements are unimprovable once you made it.
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I tested from 1-1 through 3-1 end:
* half pixel differences at different times for sub slot manipulation and spawn manipulation
* frame delay at different times (same as above)
* route changes
I've documented on the above linked google drive spreadsheet's "delay route" page.
What would save me time is obviously a hitbox lua (mostly for easier missile guy manipulations) and commenting on my WIPs route.
Yes, I don't care about TASer's name order/authorcoauthor.
edit2: last WIP (28): User movie #14199772614626834
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Regarding "that one thing where you pass through an enemy or grab a power-up and graphics glitch out for a frame" on Wiki: GameResources/NES/NinjaGaiden: I believe it's a lag frame thing which probably doesn't gets a lag flag (but it should I think).
I've tried different half pixels with and without losing time, but none of them were "more favorable" than current ones from 1-1 to 2-2 2nd screen. Moving on, editing this post later when found/did something.
edit1: the "luck destroyer" RWJ improvement for 2-2 2nd screen saves 1 frame but gives much worse 7th slot enemies (which we need to manipulate and impossible to do it before next screen 2nd enemy without losing this improvement). Remanipulating good luck later (on next screen) will lose a frame because then it's impossible to remanipulate both the soldiers' and bullets positions... so I'm going to test some delays and half pixels before 2-2.
edit2: looks like impossible to resync with that 1 frame improvement because of timing dependent knife throwers. Going to optimize from 2-2 last screen to few levels into stage 4. linky: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjzBXzk5TnLYdE8ybHpRZTFVNWI4bEZwWTFqZ0I0Y1E&usp=sharing
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My WIP21 22 2-2 last screen is ~22+4 frames faster, 3-1 is 5+6 frames faster, 3-2 is 12+13frames faster. Most of the tricks can't be reimplemented (mostly because of knife throwers).
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I've tried to put delays randomly, but I need much more delays now with my fastest one. So I'm going to continue with the wrong one and upload it once I polish it.
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Slot4 (slot3 now) NFL player somewhy 1 frame (1.5px actually) slower, not sure if the slot change (knife tosser manipulated it I guess) affected it.
8372(old) and 8370(new)
see?
google spreadsheet comparison here as always
edit: User movie #14979094480289965 - adding a delay before 3-2 (end of 3-1) let me to pass knife tosser. Looks like inevitable to go without that delay. Should be placed better at 3-1 to somehow manipulate 3-2 first bird or slot 7 objects (or bullets on 3-1?)
Don't hesitate to write if you see or think of any bizarre thing that would manipulate anything. Currently I highly optimized a lot of things, mainly the subpositions (both X and Y subs for enemies), recoveries and positioning (hitbox lua + interrupt juggling) and compared routes with different half pixels.
edit: latest wip, 2 frames saved User movie #14507550577629635