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MESHUGGAH
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amaurea wrote:
I like thatguy's suggestion of "researcher"
Me too. But something more definitive maybe. Making a poll is a good idea I think.
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MESHUGGAH
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TASes should be branched individually using the game's (speedrunning) terms and tagged with general things. When a new TAS makes uses of a new trick, the previous (even if non-obsoleted) movie's tag should contain an easily understandable expression referring to not using a time saver trick(s) that wasn't discovered back then. I think multiple "glitched" movies should be distinguished by adding the unused techniques to the previous (even if non-obsoleted) movie's branch. I don't think we need to categorize "glitch" levels. It would get worse when detailing Super Metroid corruptions. The branch should contain the most important difference between the two movies. And I would write an example if I would know which movies counts in this debate. edit: Regarding branch name length. The various ways to complete a game is what I call the "branch" of the TAS. Therefore if a game allows to be completed using a complex route, the branch's name should reflect it as accurately as possible and should be renamed afterwards if the term gets "obsoleted".
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feos wrote:
As for myself, I will debug enemy spawn time and position. Will be obvious why.
The time of finishing 2-3 boss alters it (boss has 6th slot like knife throwers). Should be a good place to test spawn differences. Notes on my WIP? (I think boss 2-3 is now perfect, and I tried a lot of variations for 2-2 last screen, but none of them was better, I had very good half pixels and luck for my test run =) ) edit: but not good enough User movie #14043550826460899
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So... 2-2 1st screen looks like unimprovable, because the bullets goes too fast to have enough time to delay jumping to avoid hitting the green soldier in front of us (the 3 jump presented here) 2-2 2nd screen RWJ is improvable with 1 frame, but gives a much worse knife thrower (hitting himself). Tried some delays, nothing good. And everytime I tried to save somehow a frame on 2-2 last (3rd) screen, I was always much frames behind. Currently getting a wrong knife thrower at 3-1 2nd one. Trying to sacrifice as few frames as possible. edit: Currently I need to sacrifice 2.5~7 X position (desync comes from much faster boss battle). (he should stop at midway and think about his life for a few seconds)
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Thanks for the answers/corrections YaLTeR! I forgot to say that you guys rocks (HL speedrunning made me to join TASVideos, and I totally forget you are working on new improvements) =) I can't test the bunnymod now, but did you guys used the in-game wireframe commands for out of bounds (sky swimming etc) routes? As soon as I can TAS this game (not the TAS-life), I will go back to KZ and pwn everyone with perfect strafes
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Oh, I've thought this is the TAS already. Well, a TAS would be wildly different than this. The fastest way to increase your movement speed is air strafing rapidly. I couldn't calculate the "golden ratio" between number of air strafes and the degree change depending on actual movement speed, but solely this trick would save a lot of time. An easy way to understand this is that the maximum speed Gordon can go is probably ~edit4: much more than2000units/speed, while the "running" speed is around ~400unit/speed (don't trust me, I played HL ages ago). The TAS would aim to pass each door with that maximum speed. Also when "hitting a door", a (standup) countjump should be used for fastest speed recovery (ducking for 1 frame, making a 180 degree turn with correct turning speed and jumping once touching the land). Oh and I don't even mention FPS_MAX trickeries. btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY#t=48 -> hitting the wall or it's just the map transition? around ~4:30, in theory, wallsliding gives a very slight boost while strafing there, but it's very hard to pull it off in real time and probably a TAS could make better strafes than falling on wall. I know it's a TAS once someone able to pull objects while boosting off it infinitely, same way as in ~4:44. At ~7:48, a wall bug would be better (90 degree facing towrads a wall, forward and duck). Next scene why not jump on scientist and barney head? Also I would watch a multiplayer speedrun, where players boosts through walls in narrow areas, so one player can advance scripts/entities/transitions while the other one can go to the next part, but people should argue about playing single player with multiple players. edit: tripmine can't be used to boost through walls? probably an NPC who can jump is required to do that like Barney. edit2: or snarks? edit3: "jumpbugs: 14"? I admin I didn't watched it fully, but was there actually a jumpbug (jumping down to a platform while ducking,release duck and jump when 2~4 units above the floor)? I saw mostly edgebugs (falling no a slope wall to avoid taking damage and saving horizontal speed) and "slow wallbugs" (jumping between 2 walls closing in 45 degree) edit4: http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki doesn't contains wallbug which would save time (I wrote it for 7:48 in this post). http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki/Sharking depends on sv_airaccelerate and another variable (sv_airmove?), so it's different between games http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki/Object_Boosting totally right, the game reduces velocity if it reaches more than 4000, so if you maintain it 3999.999, you can stay on that value.
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I've tried to improve a few frames, but they get "nullified" since I'm more "beyond" the bullets. Also "interrupt" juggling is good for single enemies, but since it's also freezes bullets... So currently we get a few more enemies that can "desync" my route from 7900: - the knife throwers, who sometimes throw themself or get rage and throw you - the green soldier at the very end who can catch us - the bullets from the SMG guy I'm pretty sure my WIP is improvable by few frames, but it might be a good idea to continue the WIP and start optimizing/throwing in delays later (I guess it's make it easier to connect different levels with good (enemy sub y pos) values rather than saving every frame and get pwned by another NPC). Opinions, ideas? edit: I will watch Scumtron's NG1 TAS sinister1's pacifist RTA and translate at east the 2nd boss to pacifist version. Well I optimized simple things, and will upload it once I find fastest strategy for boss 2 (jumping with burst damage (bd, empty, bd, empty, bd) or only for first and last time?)) edit2: any fancy thing about the sprite limits? edit3: I've used boss hp monitor addresses: 0x66 boss hp 0x497 boss hp (1 remains) I guess 0x496 is the "graphical" value and can be decreased without the two other value decrease. Why? (2-3 boss, attack a bit earlier for 1 time) edit4: the bird trajectory script is awesome. the walls lua should be updated, at least I found an invisible sticky floor:
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I interpret interrupts like a frame rule. Yes, it's good if you get it early after a Tyson who needs to be manipulated, but that's all I think. Differences between WIP5 and WIP6 (from level 2 first frame with walls in lua), one of them manipulates Tysons:
    Lot of values around 0x20B~0x2FB are greater with 1 value in WIP 5 0x20B,0x20F, 0x21F,0x223, 0x233,0x237, 0x247,0x24B... (not pattern recognized) 0x47E == DE for a 1 frame better tyson for 2nd Tyson, == 02 for the slower one.
edit: solution by feos: 6 slot's sub Y position. bookmark this page (comparison table/comments): http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjzBXzk5TnLYdE8ybHpRZTFVNWI4bEZwWTFqZ0I0Y1E&usp=sharing
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Few more tests about Tysons. 1. Losing 1.5px on first 3 enemies: Tyson still needs an empty frame. Losing 2.0px on first 3 enemies (L): Tyson doesn't needs the empty frame. However still -0.5px behind which loses 2 frames overall (since doesn't affects "future" Tysons) 2. Losing additional 1 HP doesn't save nor lose a frame (~516 RWJ, first L for sign jump, R for next Tyson, half pixel for last Tyson manipulation) edit2: it's alters the 2nd Tyson on level 2, uploading it :User movie #13933509768180001 so it's currently loses 1 frame additionally. Boss 1 is same because I guess the game only takes away points for 2 healths lost not 1. always forget that stupid "health to score points" is instant. 3. I've tried to juggle with Interrupts (you can infinitely freeze enemies at correct position with constant wiggling), but I don't see any way to implement it as a time saving trick. edit: there's a lot of other zero page addresses.
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(reworded edit2:) Tysons manipulation requires variable X positions to sacrifice few frames before he executes an attack, where this number depends on the time of positioning. For example, sometimes you can avoid sacrificing 0.5 or even 1.0 X position if you do it at correct time (obviously it's also depends on other factors like "possibility" of pulling out this). (My guess is the game calculates the distance between the enemy and Ryu) This can be optimized with left button while airborne (squeezing out pixels). Also worth to note Pacifist tests done:
    Dog RWJ can't be improved with 0.5px less X position beforehand (same result) Tyson manipulation after dog doesn't seems to be improvable Tyson RWJ already fastest
Both level 1 and boss looks OK. edit3: Uploaded User movie #13885349170462746, which tries to recreate feos marx version but 3 Tysons are a bit unregretful in level 2
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Scumtron wrote:
Not sure I get your meaning
I referred to my earlier uploaded movie about "not perfect" speed preserving (U+D+L etc), but already fixed it on the last one I think (required to minimize recovery after being hit). Thanks for the informations, I will test it without that half pixel then. edit2: taking away half pixel here makes the next "recovery walljump" 3 X pos lower (2 frames slower) And also removing half pixel at the end of 1-1 doesn't change boss 1. So I'm out of ideas to improve the pacifist 1-1 and boss (I don't see the possibility either). edit: also I'm curious why specific "sticky floors" can be avoided why some of them always "sticks"? For example, first one avoidable, second one isn't (in the pacifist one)
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feos wrote:
While resyncing your improvements (that are hilarious), I got stuck at nearly every other tyson, because they changed their behavior. And you know what? I must debug this crap to understand what they really depend on.
Resyncing? Well it looked like they only depend on Ryu's X position. Maybe they have timers too (when to punch)? edit: changing Ryu's X position only manipultes Tyson if they are spawned (first frame to use is when Tyson is drawn on screen).
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Scumtron wrote:
Awesome work with those scripts. Have either of them helped any with the pacifist thing?
The basic (NGRAMview()) lua script: yes User movie #13843139913122407 User movie #13843227963546744 edit: it looks like that saving a half pixel loses a frame on boss 1, I've tried my movie and Scumtron's "any%" movie, same result. And my movie is also improvable with using the "preserve speed while airborne", but I don't understand which half pixels are good. edit2: (asking feos:) what's the "restrictions" for the pacifist version? I see that Scumtron picks powerups to "instakill" first boss. Is it possible to implement it and improve level 1+boss with that route? (it requires atleast +1 damage take if I'm right)
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mklip2001 wrote:
For the record, for people who aren't familiar with the game: you should know that the final boss can only be defeated by using four specific ninja powers in a specific order. That's why the time wasted digging in the ground with the Spider power is unavoidable. MESHUGGAH did a pretty good job linking the powers together though in close quarters without getting hurt.
Well actually, I believe the final boss is a complete glitch. First you can't hit it earlier or it will be counted as a "wrong" power and you get damage. Secondly you need to time your ninpo arts or the damage will only do 1 or 2 "sub" damage (boss has 4 "health" == 12 "sub health". A correct hit should always register as "3 sub damage"), which also depends on where do you hit his hitboxes) Also I think adelikat used the very same sequence. I've tried to use different ones, but as I said, it's glitchy. Fire rain and (IIRC) Lightning is counts as "same", also you can't throw shuriken between 2 specific ninpo arts and using the "right" art in sequence can also register as a "sub" damage or worse ("wrong" skill). I didn't checked all possible skill sequences but this one proved to be the best. edit: I like to read your viewpoint/"analyzing" of my TASes so I'm also interested in what do you think about my [2545] NES Ninja Jajamaru: Ginga Daisakusen by MESHUGGAH in 15:16.06 TAS.
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xxNKxx wrote:
VIP can earn money by their TAS?
Depends on the game. I've got richer with the duck tales TASes. Proofs here.
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YushiroGowa wrote:
Well I kinda thought it would be a neat thing to see in a TAS but using it during normal gameplay could be fun as well.
I think I was a little bit pessimistic since I was instantly thinking of games in general, and we know that lot of games has lag frames and specific tricks that requires you to avoid some features of the game (getting a power up which makes a pause, jumping which loses 1 frame, players need to focus on 1 enemy etc). But I think http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/mario/ could be implemented as a second player with some changes like learning from player 1's actions (since you should understand the game faster and better).
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I smell a bad game choice. Atleast I don't see anything in this TAS that wouldn't be "super easy" to recreate in a RTA. Wasn't entertained.
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I've thought of that Mario AI too instantly. Probably can be useful for very basic games as a test run, but I can't see it effective in TASes. Unless you are going to implement hundreds for conditions and functions for each game in a way to make it "developable" later which takes a lot of time rather than simply recording 2 players at once and change P2 input later.
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So, the glitched TAS on console is something around 2~13 cycles farther compared to the emulated one.
Glitched TAS
c64281102 $FB2A:40 RTI A:FF X:FF Y:62 S:F9 P:NvUBdIzc 
c64281108 $3CBF:DA UNDEFINED A:FF X:FF Y:62 S:FC P:NvUBdizC

Recreated console outcome on emulator
c64281115 $FB2A:40 RTI A:FE X:FF Y:62 S:F8 P:NvUBdIzc 
c64281121 $7E4E:01 01 ORA ($01,X) @ $7F00 = #$F8 A:FE X:FF Y:62 S:FB P:NvUBdizC 
The stack is vastly different, probaly one of the undefined instruction got executed on console. Or... ...the "glitched TAS" with NewPPU gives the same result but with colors: So, here's the NewPPU "normal" credits movie.
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goldenband wrote:
I'm especially interested in games that pretend to use a RNG or give the player a choice between multiple options, but where in reality you're forced to fail or make the wrong choice.
There are plenty games, especially RPGs that encourages you to complete something but in reality there's no chance to. In GBC Magi Nation (and the remake GBA Magi Nation), you need to grab the crystal and escape the cave. It has multiple pathes and you can "outrun" the collapsing ground but all of the roads (even the start of the cave) is a dead end. Even if you would get out of bounds (in theory), the game will say you are trapped once a scripted timer hits.
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Only the last input need to be modified. Removing A at last frame gives highly similar to the "console" result To recreate your result (not the above mentioned), I had to remove "R" on 2144th frame. I've uploaded a movie I think it should sync on console: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/13598421770779436
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As feos mentioned, you forgot to add subpixels in to the calculations. As far as I can see, the next X subpos is at 0xFFDBB2 and 0xFFDBC2 (probably one of them is hitbox (since they are equal)). 0xFFDBBA and 0xFFFDDE gets the value from the 2 address above, so check it out which should be used for your assistance.
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Post subject: Re: Timing of input/frame advance
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It would be a good idea to share at least the name of the game you are talking about. There are many reasons while a specific value doesn't changes each frame. 1. I see a very simple pattern in your values : (increment with) 1, 0, 2, 1, 0, 2. Are you sure it should be 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1? 2. The "position" of calculations are (nearly) completely up to the developers. There are games where the input polling is on the end of the frame instead of the start, so for example a movement-specific subroutine won't takes account your up/down/left/right because it's executed earlier. 3. If you are unsure that your input isn't calculated on that frame, you have plenty choices: - monitor in-game time / frame counter (I doubt there's a game without these) - monitor the "polled input" (same as above) - watch the memory for these values (x-value in this case), recognize the pattern so you know when you are fall behind - look for a "lag indicator" (not all games have this, and some games have multiple types to handle different problems (too many sprites on screen, too much data to load because of high speed, etc) Also, you should post your lua script, maybe you forgot to advance it each frame or you didn't render the value on next frame. edit: forgot to mention "wrong" address/calulation, for example you found X hitbox not position, or Cam X needed to get proper "X" position of character.
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I've experimented a little bit by trial and error, so here's some notes. #1 - When I got the same "level restart, go world screen, start level, credits start" (maybe Producks did that), my movie desynced. Every other movies when I didn't triggered that didn't desynced. Not sure if this is because of emulation problem. #2 - Wouldn't be the fastest approach is MUGG's version (kill first koopa, grab shell, take shell inside pipe, go to the right, launch shell and hit note block)? I had absolutely no luck with trial and error, maybe because I didn't had perfect X position for the shell. #3 - when I go to W1, I always get luigi with 99 lives, where should does the 99 comes? it's the upper limit of lives?
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Noob question, but is this the only place where you can jump into a weird pipe and go through garbage data level? And how does that weird pipe glitch works?
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