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CoolKirby wrote:
It doesn't, unfortunately. I tried all kinds of different input combinations. What it looks like on the new PPU (when this run is played back) is that it crashes to a garbled screen if you don't press Start as it's crashing, and if you do, it crashes to a black screen.
Try different buttons at:
-P2 pad: any frame except around 840 (where the power up roulette starts)
-changing the position after/before the last "stone" use
-changing the very last frame before the crash
Since it's cpu clock/ppu cycle dependent, you can always trigger the ending credits with various input. Of course you will need to manipulate it blindly to make it console verified.
The 1 frame improvement comes from a better positioning at swallowing the 3 creatures, but trolls me after the 2nd jump at room 2. Lua script shows me ~+600 movement speed but it's actually gets reduced for no reason. Demo here.
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Post #348723 : you are awesome Masterjun!
Here's my last effort on Masterjun's latest attempt. (read description here and there):
I think the slope clipping could be improvable. Anything other than that part, I couldn't optimize furthermore.
edit: 2 frames shaved off by better wallclipping. will upload soon
edit2: room 1 improved with 4 frames thanks to better lag frame avoiding and bigger boost before starting to... suck? (pressing B...) Will upload syncable version.
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CoolKirby wrote:
I'm going to try and roll the credits without manipulating, but I don't know how to make sure this address rolls the credits.
You shouldn't rely on this address solely. The glitch is CPU clock* dependent (you can verify this by pressing input at 4th (1st non-lag) frame and see that the only thing changes is the cpu clock.
It's possible (and I already done) to fix any runs on any PPU (for example TASEditor's 2186 frame tas on new ppu), so this isn't an issue. Don't ask me why it triggers the credit.
*edit: or ppu cycle... I'm a noob
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GhostSonic wrote:
The only way to truly be sure if this works on console is to actually try and verify on console. I don't own the game so I can't go and do that.
For posterity, though, here's a short list of what runs do and don't sync on the new PPU, all tested on PRG0:
Orignal by CoolKirby - Syncs
TASeditor 38.44 - Syncs
MESHUGGAH 38.35 - Syncs
MESHUGGAH 38.3 - Syncs
was0x 37.39 - Syncs
TASeditor 37.27 Personal note: wrong person - Syncs
CoolKirby 37.26 Note: One FRAME - Crashes to a garbled screen
MUGG 36.39 - Crashes to pink screen
TASeditor 36.37 - Crashes to garbled screen.
I could fix CoolKirby's run by pressing an extra L at the last frame (so it's BLR instead of BR).
All I see that the game tries to execute $3C3F subroutine which is undefined and you can manipulate to load other values.
In TASeditor's 36.37, the game doesn't wants to execute this address so he manipulated on the last manipulatable frame with various buttons which skips through various subroutines, so this can't be fixed the same way as CoolKirby's.
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feos wrote:
Probably the final movie would need to be marked as a co-authorship of you all.
Actually I'm just saw that CoolKirby made a very short NES game, so I looked in, and found an "somewhat obviously optimizable" part (jumping length and position). The only reason I'm optimizing what others do is because I don't want to TAS but it's easy with MUGG's lua script from Thread #57: Kirby's Adventure. I won't be offended if I'm not marked as coauthor, since I won't start TASing it just help others to punish another NES game under 1 minute.
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TASeditor wrote:
1st: Kirby needs to inhale two enemies at the same time.
2nd: I think it would be slower, since the distance of two enemies is greather than in the first room.
3rd: The RNG can manipulated with jumping.
Thank you for the answers. Well in 3rd room you can inhale the 1st (on the platform) and 2nd in one instant blow, and that guy who crosses the "wallclipping" shouldn't be there. I will try to re-implement some tricks in 1st room, maybe I'm just missed these RNG's. (particularly the tricks: swallowing 3 enemies in 1st room to avoid damage, manipulating the 1st creature to jump and inhale below to start running 2 frames faster, manipulating the subpos before blowing the 2 enemies, different jumping around purple and next creature). I think I will investigate it tomorrow or the day after.
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TASeditor wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
How many lag frames did you get and how close are you to MUGG's "RNG" (enemies actions on different frames)?
After trying alot I managed to remove some lag frames. So this is now three frames faster.
The enemies are not hard to manipulate.
Good. I couldn't find more improvement that saves frames only subpixels, but it looks it doesn't changes anything. Will continue optimization when someone uploads the fastest one.
Also I have a few questions still I'm a noob at this game:
- What are the conditions to "eat something and start the power up roulette"?
- Is the 1st room is the only place where you can gather stone? I think 3rd room would be much better
- How the **** does the RNG works?
edit: jlun2: the RNG change makes desync.
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TASeditor wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
edit: here's 1 frame improvement to level 1-1 for MUGG's version http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/7004496063748235
Have absolutely no idea it really saves frame for the TAS (it loads the next level 1 frame earlier). Looking forward the next TAS to optimize.
There's to much lag. I only got finished the second room 7 frames later.
How many lag frames did you get and how close are you to MUGG's "RNG" (enemies actions on different frames)?
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Vote: Did you find this frame war entertaining? (Vote after watching!)
edit: here's 1 frame improvement to level 1-1 for MUGG's version http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/7004496063748235
Have absolutely no idea it really saves frame for the TAS (it loads the next level 1 frame earlier). Looking forward the next TAS to optimize.
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Good job TASeditor and CoolKirby!
I never played the game, but it looks like you can implement more optimizations mostly with changing the length of jumping and "U" (when kirby takes breath). I've uploaded a wip to show it edit: but it goes off sync before the 2nd enemy at level 2. . Also this way I could dash faster and leave the level 4 frames faster.
Good luck with optimizing further =)
edit 2 : and the same could be made at the next "jump,take breath" scene at the river
edit 3 : the link... http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/6960695522916463
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So back to battletoads glitched... for whatever reason, I'm able to get better (closer to the right edge of the screen) by using P1 intead of P2 for that goal.
Current improvements are:
-1 frame improvement at level 1 for using P1 to go to warp
-2 frame improvement at level 3 for using only P2 to hit the last enemy (with big kick)
-2 frame improvement at level 3 for using P1 to get the jet.
I hope all these improvements will fit together and let me to manipulate no game over easily... More info and wips as soon as I compile all the improvements and finish optimizing every section again.
Side note: had absolutely no luck for ending the game without inputting at control frames (every 2nd frame after respawn chained up with ABSTUDRL).
edit 1:
Good news is that I already have a 5 frames improvement (look above) that successfully plays the game, however I found a lot of improvements (all comes from the fact that Zit (the green one) is faster than Pimple) that WOULD save frames but makes a ridiculously bad disadvantage for situations when the camera locks earlier which gives me an unimprovable situation for example at Level 3 3rd enemy (after the 3 invaders).
All I can say is "coming soon". I hope I can get enough frames to be able to get 1 cycle earlier of the Rat spawn timer. Next WIP will be uploaded after I get something good enough.
edit 2:
Had no luck to implement every improvement, but it's 3411 frames long (11 frames improvement) thanks to using Zit in 1st level and different last rat fight (mostly). It seems its truly impossible to improve the rat timers.
So now I'm investigating is it possible to reduce the ending input (which I'm pretty sure but had not enough luck). I nearly saw every possible outcomes, I think I will make some nice gif animations when I'm done.
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feos wrote:
You look just as insane as I am. It's good to not be alone.
Well, I suggest to finish this talk, the truth was found for those who wanted it, all the rest doesn't matter. I'm serious.
Good closing words. Debate is over. Go 9gag. Cya nerds. Posts to refer: 4th page.
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I reject your post feos because
- no illogical things or any sign of being a zombie
- spelling breastlover as superhuman
- and what's with your name, why are you not creative and use something original like "warp" or something... wait...
Today I learned, moving left in Super Mario Bros. is not part of the gameplay (you supposed to go right!!! So many idiot superhumans!!!)
(this post is reserved for future references for this debate.)
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Demon Lord wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Deal with it
It's sad differing opinions are not allowed here :-(
I wrote down facts with logical consequences and you say "no differing opinions allowed". This post completely reflects what specific (not you!) people do in this thread.
This debate is all about people who knows what they are writing with years of experiences behind and good understanding of internal working of video games and platforms with proper knowledge of logical consequences versus those who say the opposite without any logic and makes contradictions of common sense.
Anyone who want's the truth, refer to my last post (won't change it because it's perfect and 100% valid. Ok maybe I will add this post as a reference).
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xxNKxx wrote:
I'm trying it, but I have a problem, that's control luck for item after kill special tank. The item is random depend something 1 frame after it killed. Example, when I try get star item from it, with alot way, P1 kill it and have star item, but when I change to P2 for control (I mean back before kill it), then that item have change to other item. Omg...
Have any ideas for me ?
List of ideas ordered in "easiest to do generally" to "hardest to do generally"1. Trial and error: The easiest way is changing different buttons until you get the star item. This can be done by first making the path of the 2 tanks (planning the route) and when you are done, you luck manipulate the proper items through the way. This is actually a good choice for beginners because sometimes games/RNG desyncs and you can even find improvements while "starting" the level again for manipulating thoseitems.
2. Learn the RNG mechanics: You don't need the source code or debug to understand how should the game work. All you need to do is to observe what factors do the RNG have. Is it depends on timing (frame time or CPU time)? Is it depnds on various buttons (specific or all buttons for all players)? Is it depends on a memory value (is it possible to change it indirectly by doing the mentioned actions)?
3. Debug the game: I learned the NES assembly for the sole purpose to find RNG for my very first TAS project when I was a "total noob" too. Maybe the only difference that I knew programming so I just had to learn a different language. But it's a really good think because I assume you will want to play other games too, so learning this once will help you in your future projects. And it's easier to understand the game rather than trial and error for years especially for simple things like item manipulating.
I would advise you to read step 1 from Wiki: AdvancedLuckManipulation and continue your way where you feel the most comfortably.
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Everything that p4wn3r said: exactly.
So.....
1. Everyone who says [random technique] abuses [platform] not the game: it's part of the gameplay, deal with it.
2. Anyone who says it's not the part of the gameplay: it's part of the gameplay, carry on.
3. Resetting the game with various buttons, using "unexpected" ( there's no such thing the game thinks unexpected, there are "checks" and there are "routines" that do things depending on the conditions), buttons (famicom keyboard), the reset button, the power on/off button, resetting mid-frame, corrupting memory, corrupting save games, using 4 players for 1 player games, disc swapping, remove batteries/power supply, it's part of the gameplay, move on.
If you have any questions, feel free to read step 1 or 2 or 3.
If you think you are a genius and you think I'm wrong:
Video games are programs. These programs runs on a platform. You have controllers (the buttons on the platform, which made for the purpose to use them to control the gameplay, joystick, mouse, multitap, famicom keyboard, microphone, light gun etc) to control the game. It's all about control. You play video games by controlling the game. You are controlling the gameplay. Controlling. Part of the gameplay.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesuuuuus.
it's part of the gameplay.
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Ah, I don't get notifications...
It syncs on:
d908e25ba2c519195b8ce109dc8c7df7 *California Raisins - The Grape Escape (U).nes
which shares the names (with same checksum):
"California Raisins - The Grape Escape (USA) (Proto2).nes"
"California Raisins, The - The Grape Escape (U) (Prototype) [a1].nes"
The biggest differences between the 2 rom version of this game (the mentioned above versus "1766757fe5915c2b1f086045762b6ac8 *California Raisins - The Grape Escape (U) (Prototype).nes"):
- The "1766757fe5915c2b1f086045762b6ac8" version starts longer (the first frame where you could start is also changed to accept only Start button instead A,B,S,T
- You need to wait 1 frame to accept difficulty because it's also only Start button
- Lag frames are increased ("load next data section" is now 3 lagframes instead 1 or 0 which happens more frequently (5 times during the 1st "screen"))
I don't know which version is the newer, all I know that the rom this TAS used has various time stamps, in chronological order:
24/12/1996 (Prototype2)
29/01/2003 (U)
30/01/2003 (U) (Prototype) [a1]
and the other has 29/07/2003. That's the only evidence I could say this is the newer version. So if these timestamps are reliable, I would say, this TAS uses the "earlier" version of this game which can start the game faster and features fewer lag frames. Every bugs I abused is abusable the same way as in this ROM. I can give you a "semi" synced version (adding lot of empty frames for lagframes and changing the input as I mentioned already (3 frames for selecting diff, start, start level, resync for different "level timers",etc) but it would be much longer (again.... lagframes...).
And that version also can be fixed for Bizhawk (adding even more empty frames for lag frames).
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Congratulations for improving the former movie. I liked this version too a lot. Also this is your first submission, so I wish you good luck destroying other games too in the future!
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Derakon wrote:
So...you just luck-manipulate the next bit of food to be right next to your snake every time? That doesn't seem very interesting to me. The game has all this "terrain" lying around and it never gets used.
Let me ask you, what did you expect from a snake TAS?
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henke37 wrote:
I take it that you did luck manipulation to make all the digits appear right next to the head of the snake.
Yes, they were manipulated in the closest location to pick them up in the fastest possible time by inserting "semi random" input. The RNG is based on input which rolls throughout the whole movie. The RNG is modified (1-2 times) within a frame with 3 additional memory value which is depends from the RNG...
I've used different techniques (a lua script to randomize input, spotting different frames to modify only the column or row of the digit, etc) but the fastest technique was manipulating the digit "close" to the head of the snake and later "fine tuning" them to the closest spot.
edit: the reason I didn't finished my lua script for this is because the RNG's locations (3 RNG (helper) value, RNG pos x pos y) is changing from level to level. Sometimes the RNG is called multiple times (for example when you manipulate it in to a wall), sometimes it glitches out (needs perfect luck manipulation for it, and the game will freeze. Doesn't helps in this TAS).
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