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MESHUGGAH
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I'm ready. Here is every "knowledge" you need to judge this "ending" question. - Luck manipulation sources: Dark side (better characters to reach the cores fastest), Light takes first (required to capture cores fast without being attacked), delaying start/random first (changing "AI strategy" to avoid conjuring spells and avoding being attacked). - Intended random source: order of moving with different units, order of obtaining the cores. There's 6 theoritically "correct" in some term of being an ending point. (0. Input length) 1. Killing the last enemy that required to obtain the core 2. Obtaining the last core (either by standing on it or when the enemy dies on that square) 3. When you see the cores are obtained by dark side on the table 4. Whe you see "The game is ended..." 5. Pressing a button to start the credits at next nolag frame 6. When the credits automatically starts without input The reason I wrote them down is because some of them remains identical while others keep changing. TwistedEye (4531): 3998, 4549, 4549, 4563, 4896, 6283 This run =) (4207): 4236, 4236, 4780, 4786, 5040, 6539 My WIP v2 (4207): 4218, 4218, 4616, 4622, 4876, 4955, 6283 My WIP v3 (4207): 4218, 4218, 4595, 4601, 4855, 4934, 6283 My WIP v4 (4448): 3933, 4470, 4470, 4480, 4813, 6283 WIP4: my RNG stuffs with twistedeye's strategy of order of obtaining the cores and more optimized fights http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2678956056420939 Edit: after reading jlun2's comment, here's TwistedEye's and my WIP4 showing the credits as fast as it possible: Twistedeye: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2679185109268704 My WIP4: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2679201144417074 Soooo.. basicly, I have WIP4 which if you would wait until 4734 frames and press T, the ending credits brown frame would appear at 4813. TwistedEye's would come in 4896 frames (pressing the T at first non lag frame). Without any input, it would start the ending credits at 6283th frame (you would need to make a bigger improvement to decrease this waiting phase). So next, please write down which of these points would define as the end of the game. This WIP4 beats everything except in the term of "frame of the ending credits comes in without pressing input at next non-lag frame" because it's the same as TwistedEye's (it's timed).
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MESHUGGAH
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FractalFusion wrote:
On the other hand, if "fastest completion" means "fastest to true game end", then this movie fails to beat the previous and so would be rejected.
I'm started to make a comparison and show the possibility of the various outcomes of this speedrun. Don't reject because this movie (because of the strategy) already faster so just pressing a button already improves more than 20 secs.
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FractalFusion wrote:
Before watching this movie and the previous one, I thought this would be an easy accept. However, the decision is now more difficult because, even though this movie is 5 seconds shorter in input, it ends input early and the game is considered ended 5 seconds later than the other. This reminds me of a few other movies (though nothing particularly controversial, since they were either the first for its game, or it used major improvements). I was surprised to figure out that none of the published Monopoly movies have really had this problem, though I believe that the current published Monopoly movie is optimal in neither sense, whether by shortest input, or by game end. My initial opinion is to reject the run.
If I would position the dragon to it's place and press start at the first frame I can (mybe waiting 100~150 frames) would bring the ending credits 25 seconds faster than TwistedEye's submission (and it would still be faster because of the different strategy). And as I stated this earlier in this thread, this submission aims for shortest input. If you don't like it, I can make that "bring ending screen instantly" which is I think totaly pointless, why do you want to skip something if you don't need to press more buttons just wait? I hope I didn't misunderstanded you.
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JWinslow23 wrote:
A new WIP can be found here. Please watch, MESHUGGAH! Tell me if this is publication material (even if it inevitably DOES go in the Vault)!
Make sure to write all the entertainments you have added! I've feel entertained while watching it. I don't know how the audience will accept it, but my improved vaulted runs got much better than the former ones.
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I watched the wip. Okay these big letters in taseditor was really sudden and I like it! Personally I found your wip entertaining, those horses are so horny =) I would give it a 8.0 but since I don't know how long will it be, this will change.
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JWinslow23 wrote:
(Also, if you know some important RAM values that would be helpful anywhere, especially in battles or fort/train capturing, can you give them to me? Glitches would also be very helpful! Thanks in advance!)
I didn't watched the RAM since the game is pretty basic. But here you the manipulation I did detailed: Manipulating the AI's movement on the map: start the game later/faster after you skipped the intro. There's isn't many variations in the first iterations, but more turns will show more difference. Manipulating the AI's movement in battles: this depends on the enemy AI (higher level makes him more aggressive so you can end the battles faster) and also doing actions timed differently (I manipulated this to get hexa kills of soldiers and getting better position for enemy artillery).
JWinslow23 wrote:
Edit: I have discovered a glitch is the fort-raiding and train-raiding levels in which pressing left and right at the same time crashes the game (i.e. any input you do other than resetting the console, which I do not know how to do with button inputs, will not affect the game, and it stays on the same screen for the whole time). It will not be of much help if I don't find a button code to soft-reset (or hard-reset) the game, however, so if anyone can find one, let me know! WIP can be found here.
You can soft reset the game by either using the menu of FCEUX (Nes > Reset) or editing your FM2 movie file (the line where you want to make a reset, change the "0" to "1"): Instead of a typical |0|........||| to |1|........||| . hard-reset is |2|........|||
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Derakon wrote:
Ah ha, thanks for the clarification, MESHUGGAH. I should have realized that the run was over as soon as the dragon fired! Silly me.
Well, actually you were right: if you position the dragon closer to the left side of the screen after the fight, the game would end faster, but this would requires more input. So yes, you can make a version which reaches the ending faster by adding more input. But I don't see the point doing this. Also you can just simply press enter if you wait 100~150 frames to get the credits appear instantly. Technically, this TAS uses the shortest input to end the game.
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MESHUGGAH
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Derakon wrote:
Hey, it's an improvement to a movie I liked to begin with. One question, though -- wouldn't it be faster to end the Dragon fight with the dragon as close to its tile location as possible? The game spends a long time slowly moving it over to the other side of the battlefield. (And to a lesser extent, the same question applies to the Goblin fight)
No, you won't be faster. The length of frames needed to wait for the next turn is depends on previous inputs/luck. The reason I'm not at the same position where I could "possibly" should is because it's as fast as I would do that. So I thought it looks "funnier". Looks like it's more like "confusing". For the dragon fight, I end input when I fired the fireball (the movie is already stopped).
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IronSlayer wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Since no one is active on irc at 8:40 (utc+1), please read this: <MESHUGGAH>someone from the higher tier? 3752S doesn1t uses highest difficulty and also doesn't improves the gameplay, I have a 56 frames faster and still can be improved much more <MESHUGGAH>but I feel it awkward that I vote yes for entertainment and basicly write down why it doesn't should be pubished And I think that choosing south could be faster because you can use the "green" level which is the fastest imo (you just have to go down once with the horses and rush the enemy while other levels needs to get the horses to up and down for the horses and the artillery).
Very interesting. If you managed such a large improvement so quickly and easily, why not TAS this game yourself?
I'm actually doing it now. edit: playing as South, 4266 is the final framecount (1:11 instead your 1:19) http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2500799130184739
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Since no one is active on irc at 8:40 (utc+1), please read this: <MESHUGGAH>someone from the higher tier? 3752S doesn1t uses highest difficulty and also doesn't improves the gameplay, I have a 56 frames faster and still can be improved much more <MESHUGGAH>but I feel it awkward that I vote yes for entertainment and basicly write down why it doesn't should be pubished And I think that choosing south could be faster because you can use the "green" level which is the fastest imo (you just have to go down once with the horses and rush the enemy while other levels needs to get the horses to up and down for the horses and the artillery).
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Nicos wrote:
Wtf vote! Nice improvement ans happy birthday
Thank you =) About the audio, let me copy from the submission text: Manipulating music/background: Pausing very fast alternating on thetwo joystick mutes the music channel. pause on P1, next frame pause on P2 makes a very fast pause (without wasting a frame) Level 3 music muted, soundeffects added (by unmuting) to jumps and spawns: that's why you hear those Atari bits when I jump. About the video, the sideffect (of alternating pause) is flickering the background on level 3 which can not be seen in the enode because it's 30fps and the game is 60fps. The effect is vastly different. and thanks for the encode Spikestuff
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Lollorcaust wrote:
Possible frame war?
And also read to list of "possible" and impossible improvements in the submission text I've added later.
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It's still not April 1st. Nice try.
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Feos: Yes I improved. For latest syncing version check my the movie I linked. I gained improvements by doing actions faster, some actions later, very good positioning and shortening jumps. This is a result of tasing the game multiple times (it's the 25th time now) frame by frame using TASeditor. The rerecord count for this project is..... god.... I have a 3438 frames long version (13 frames improvement) but couldn't manipulate the game end. I soon upload it if I've made it. edit: WIP unfinished (will be manipulated later) http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2275432265444753 - music not changed http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2275234369181302 - music changed
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I've been working on a super optimized TAS of Battletoads 2p warps glitched. Currently it's 3451 frames long (39 frames shorter than #3710: TheZlomuS & DyLaX's NES Battletoads "Glitched" in 00:58.07) and still in progress. Demo is here. I would like to get feedback about what do you think of changing the background music without losing any frames. It would be implemented as "entertainment" factor. The trick is that making very rapid pauses (p1 start, next frame p2 start) enables you to skip a part of the background music and "cut" them. I recommend you to watch the original background music (temp encode by SpikeStuffs): Link to video Then watch mine from 2.1.4a for example (syncs for me). Notice Level 1 music from the begining (~1700 frame). Also the very beginning of level 2. Any comments and suggestions are welcome.
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feos wrote:
How to run into game over / game end routine by wish is still unknown.
I manipulate the game end without any tools. It's basicly contains 3 things: 1. manipulate something that will change the pallette (not BULR or BUDR, must be delayed) 2. at least 1 life (anything that bigger than 0) 3. something has going on (spawn, lag, game over, etc). I suggest you to look my posted movies, IIRC all of them uses different manipulation input. Other news is that I improved 32 frames and it's still in progress. Maybe a week and I submit it.
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I improved again, overally now with 22 frames. And I have no idea how, but it's syncs for me without opening TASeditor. Could anyone verify this? http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2221654626944688 edit: the movie is still improvable but close to be perfect edit2: thanks Ilari. This means that it's possible to sync this TAS on official release, and I'm keep finding new improvements, so I think it would be better to reject it instead of replacing the movie file. Of course I'm just a co-author so this is just my opinion.
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After reading the comments I must be the only one who doesn't understand these tiers. Anyone could show a list of examples for 1 game with various TASes distributed in these tiers? Currently this is what I think and I'm pretty sure I'm wrong: making slower TASes (making entertainment/speed tradeoff as much as you are under the WR time) will gets the higher tier while a very fast TAS of the same game that for example skips the "best" parts of it will be gets a lower tier because of lack of entertainment
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Another famous game gets owned by adelikat. Yes vote! After watching this TAS I'm going to try A2600 tasing. Thank you.
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feos wrote:
This needs investigation! I could call this exact kind of game over pretty fast, but it never resulted in game end.
Using tas-editor I sync them perfectly. #2076832347595676 btoads_shortestinput.fm2 (last link above your post) gets a game over and shows the glitchy plane and ending credits. edit: or maybe I misunderstood your post?
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I've reduced the "pre-glitch" part by 1 frame by better maneuvering with the jet, demo is here. Of course I will try to reduce the glitch part again. edit: in the terms of reaching the ending credits faster edit: another 4 frame improvement for better manipulating the game over/end game, demo is here.
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It would sync maybe for the first ~30 secs with already different memory values.
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I just modified the glitching part to skip the boring part however you still have to wait some seconds. I don't belong to TheZlomuS and DyLaX's team so as long as I can't reduce it (being faster / shorter movie) I let them to use my file without adding me as a co-author. If I somehow reduce it, I will submit it with all the authors (feos, AnS, TheZlomuS and DyLaX).
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AnS wrote:
So, MESHUGGAH, you didn't analyze the actual memory corruption principles but manipulated the best outcome by the trial and error method?
Well, mostly, I wrote out a few memory addresses and functions by debugging, however the patterns (values) and their positions are came by trial and error. I can dump the patterns and some positions but they are really get vastly different if you delay them using the simple pause or the reset trick (ABSTUDLR).
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feos wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
In case you don't like game overs: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/1454916043573621
The last ending titles appear at frame 4849. In the submitted movie - at 7698. EDIT: note that all those glitched endings are not bugged. As you press start you go to the title screen as normally. EDIT2: MESHUGGAH, how the heck you did that???
When we tased it a year ago maybe, I made a list of the possible patterns and their possible positions. Different pattterns has different results on different positions. Let me somewhat explain the possibilities... imagine this as a frame by frame analysis. I will use the tas made by TheZlomus and DyLaX and frame numbers from TASEdtor to demonstrate: 1. The glitching part uses the memory, so everything you input before respawning (from the 1st frame of level 3 (2191) to the respawn (3469)). This means that just simply putting another input on P1 or P2 pad will lead to a different result (just like failing to reach the ending credits). 2. There are different positions of "controlling frames" (where you can manipulate the memory greatly) for P1 and P2 pad. P1: the first 3 frames (3474, 3475, 3476) P2: the first 2 frames and the 4th frame. (3474, 3475, 3477) 3. However, there's a trick to reuse these controlling frames by two method. The first one is using the ABSTUDLR (2^8 == 0xFF == 256) input on these controlling frames. The second method is using the pause (T) to "delay" the instruction you would normally do on an earlier controlling frame. Here's a simple example. You can "disable" the ongoing sprites by pressing L (2^1) on the 2nd controlling frame (3475) on the P2 pad. If you want to delay it (delaying leads to different results) you can pause the game on P2 pad 1st controlling frame (3474) and unpause on P1 pad on the 3rd frame (notice its not a controlling frame but since you paused the game it won't be increased (you will be using the *2nd controlling frame)) and press L (2^1) on the P2 pad. Like this: 3474 P1: - P2: T 3475 P1: - P2: - 3476 P1: T P2: TL Soooooooo..... using this two methods you can nearly do anything you want, just like skipping the game over, restarting the 3rd level (entirely, not just from the jets), changing different game logics, spawning items and stuffs... However, this isn't simple as pressing an input for a desired effects since this way you are corrupting the memory heavily. *edit: I wrote 1st instead of 2nd
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