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Good job! You are much faster than me (because of using infinite running instead of infinite rolling) also the electricity bug is new to me (even that I used the very same at the boss battle)!
I should collaborate with someone on this tas since I'm not that good in solo tasing =)
edit: at least my boss fight was faster than yours but still you are better than me Inzult =)
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I tried to do "infinite running" without success. How did you do that in your american version tas? Also, does it faster than infinite rolling (since I don't need to recharge at the end of stage 1)?
edit: I finish the level at 362 while your unoptimized run finishes in 357.
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I would nominate our (feos and me) TAS [1920] NES Battletoads "warps, 2 players" by feos & MESHUGGAH in 11:04.72
Reasons:
- NES TAS of 2011
- famous game
- 2 players
- radical gameplay change according to earlier TAS of this game
- visually funny overall (both the entertainments and the technical part)
- good audience response (8.6 from 14.5 votes)
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After I finished my latest JALECO run (Rod Land), I found this other "gem". It's about a space ninja who has 1 life and instantly dies if doesn't kills the enemy.
Rom name: Ninja Jajamaru - Ginga Daisakusen (J).nes
Here's my movie file that completes World 1 and World 2 stage 1.
What do you think, what's your opinions? Do you know the game and know more glitches?
What I mostly abuse is "infinite" rolling.
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Dwedit wrote:
For the heck of it, I made an encode that uses the PAXKKLAA Game Genie Code to fix the ending. Does not affect any of the video before joystick input ends.
MP4 File 60FPS, H.264+MP3, 6.6MB
Looks good, I prefer this version instead of showing sloppy tits.
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One more note about luck/AI manipulation: notice scene 6 I obtained the multiball powerup which modified the AI to don't use the ladder, this way I could climb up with RIT and kill them faster with a rocket instead of using an S for TAM and wait a lot of frames to be able to get there to that point. The same goes for scene 20 where the monkey wouldn't get hit by the rocket/"2 side bomb" if I obtain them, not to mention the multiball hit.
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goofydylan8 wrote:
Can you select any first enemy AI for a level without affecting the time of the previous level? So can you finish level one in a certain number of frames and without that number changing choose a separate 2nd level AI?
The way the AI acts at the next level depends on your previous input (mostly A B S). The strategy was finding the best solution for each scene and manipulate it to get that proper luck. This way I don't need to sacrifice frames.
goofydylan8 wrote:
Second do you understand how the spawning differences work? I was looking at it for a bit and it seems like the player and all but one of the enemies X-positions vary by less than 3 and then 1 enemy x-value can be as much as 40 (maybe more) depending on the frame as you said. Finally is it possible to easily manipulate this value?
Now this is what frame dependent. The frame I start the scene will change the spawn location of the enemies. Being slower on a scene leaded me a much better spawn for the next scene. Notice the scene I had to use the balloon -> it was manipulated by being faster on the first 3 scene and being slower (by a very few frames) on one of the scene before that part. However this isn't easy as "wait 1 frame and enemy position will be +1" it's mostly like a "different frame -> different spawn" scenario.
ais523 wrote:
What's with the death and use of a continue?
As far as I know this has been discussed for games where you need to use credits (arcade games). I abused death for 3 reasons: luck manipulation (many scenes), speed advantage (boss 2) and entertainment (boss 3 game over)[/quote]
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
not entertaining
I recommend you to watch an unassisted speedrun of this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMssQ8iZUaQ
This way you can compare how much things I did in order to come up with this TAS (or watch the rerecord number). =)
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DarkMoon wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I herd u liek glitches. That's all I can say. Amazing. However I don't know what should I vote because I miss the entire credits.
I'm also interested in the save file (does it shows you can play the last level or just stays at YI3 which means you only triggered the "The End" picture without doing anything which stands against one of my earlier stated "possible game end states" definition).
The RAM address that handles what phase of the credits that the game is showing is correct, so that's what we go off of. The game doesn't save when you end the game anyway, so a save game file won't prove anything since the game never saved.
This was the very same issue with Pokémon Yellow about how the game should be considered as entering into a possible end game state rather than just showing an "ending" thing. Anyone can prove that the "The End" has the very same effects/route (progression within the positive end game state) as a normal completion? Think about if the game would have an unlockable thing that triggers if the game is beaten. Does the TAS would have that? If no, it means the game doesn't entered into a positive end game state just a complicated (due to memory manipulation) game state which visually shows the same with different values.
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I herd u liek glitches. That's all I can say. Amazing. However I don't know what should I vote because I miss the entire credits.
I'm also interested in the save file (does it shows you can play the last level or just stays at YI3 which means you only triggered the "The End" picture without doing anything which stands against one of my earlier stated "possible game end states" definition).
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After communicating with Zeup, I will continue this run in 2012.
Here's a WIP which is improvable and will go out of sync after a while:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/806224682/MESHUGGAH_ROD_LAND_2011.fm2
Some technical things:
-1st enemy AI depends on previous input (previous stage).
-Continous enemy AI check: where is the player, where are ladders, how to avoid effects
-Sometimes it takes an additional frame to do a ladder for P2
-Bonus clear screen can be avoided on every odd frames
-1st boss fight has 8 HP (around 0x0589)
-Balloon manipulatable by previous input (previous stage).
Newest wip syncs until pre 3rd Boss section
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/914188393/MESHUGGAH_ROD_LAND_WIP2.fm2
edit: I made a run which tries to play as fast as possible and now making a new TAS that tries to improve everything. Will submit when I'm complete. 6 frames improved until Scene 04 already =)
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Thank you for showing this GEM! This will be my new project: a 2 player Rod Land tas. I already have a file which starts 4 frame faster than randil and finishes the 1st level in the same time. I also found a bug: climbing a ladder "off-tile" and abuse the wall ejection by inserting 1 or 2 different sideway. Luck manipulation is very easy too!
I will continue and finish it in 2012 =)
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pirate_sephiroth wrote:
Do we get to see these removed scenes in a TAS?
- The skippable dialogue texts (occurs 1-2 times in a stage) will be skipped (you have no chance to see it in realtime)
- The suicide scene adds approx. 40 sec to the final TAS (text will be skipped too)
- The hidden message doesn't needs input as far as I know (you only have to wait in the Japanese version. English version doesn't has this).
edit: - The intro is skipped entirely by pressing S before the intro. The first thing you will see is the main menu.
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I'm thinking about TASing the game "Assault Suits Valken" (Cybernator for Americans) for SNES, which originally released in Japan. However, they made a censored version for Americans.
Main differences (copied from http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/assaultsuits/assaultsuits.htm)
Konami published this title in North America under the name Cybernator. For some reason, they removed the portraits by the dialogue (even though they still appear unaltered in the intro) and significant chunks of text. including several supporting characters, and a hidden message after the credits. It's a bit lame, considering the character designs were provided by Satoshi Urushihara, who also did Masaya's Langrisser series. One scene was removed completely, where your mech flies into an office and meets up with a corporate official, who proceeds to take out a pistol and blow his pixellated little head off. Obviously such brutal suicide would not have gone over well with the censors at Nintendo of America.
Here's a video if you want to see it in action (suicide scene differences starts at 5:03)
Link to video
So what do you think. Would you rather watch a TAS with the full plot in japanese or a faster TAS (same TAS without the suicide scene) in english without portraits, random names, random texts, no hidden message and no fancy cutscene?
Also there's a cancelled submission for Cybernator: #519: mazzeneko's SNES Cybernator in 18:04.42. I think it's cancelled because of obvious mistakes/flaws based on the responses on the discussion forum.
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Joseph Collins wrote:
I have a suggestion for a revisited run of this game. Simply put, instead of using the (U) ROM, use the (E) or (J) ROM instead. I'm well aware of the rules for always using a (U) ROM when available, unless there's a good reason, but in this case, there's a good reason:
Both the (E) and (J) ROMs fix a number of bugs plaguing the original (U) release of the game. I'm not sure what all it fixes, so it might include fixing the Level 4: Arctic Cavern level problems (not sure if they're detrimental to superplays or not) as well as the recently-discovered Level 3 to Level 4 warp glitch (somewhat doubtful). I do know, however, that it fixes the problem with Level 8: Intruder Excluder's scrolling right before Robo-Manus (infinite death glitch, does not affect TAS), but more importantly... both (J) and (E) versions fix the unresponsive 2P Clinger-Winger vehicle in Level 11: Clinger-Winger!
Before I saw this superplay, I was going to say that this fix alone would most assuredly improve the overall time of a 2P run considerably, not to mention remove the need to progressively whittle Zitz's lives down to 0 over the course of the game (or all at once, at Level 11). But then again, it looks like with the redone way of killing off Zitz, only a few seconds were lost in the long-run of things, rather than almost a minute...
In addition, the Japanese version specifically does not allow jump-in continues like the US and Euro version (after the start of a 2-player game) do. Then again, Zitz won't need to die off before the Clinger-Winger in either Japan or Euro version, so that's kind of irrelevant.
Major differences between different versions:
1. E runs slower (PAL)
2. J is much easier than U (this means this run uses the hardest difficulty)
3. J starts a bit slower (different menu), fewer enemies, easier things
4. J and E fixes 2P glitch at level 11
5. Level 3 glitch state loads only once (calling level end object works, but you can't do another respawn to do other things because the controlling frames will be disappeared, so 0x55 (BTDR IIRC) should only work since it uses different pre values).
So I don't think we should change version, there's only 1 cause we should: if it's able to spawn 0x55 : 2 warp on J. Nuff said.
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If anyone interested, here's the experimentation I did about trying to simulate the same as this video shows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e9xdvXR8m0
This is done by
- warping from level 1 to level 3 started as P2
- going through the 1st checkpoint by going to the very left of the screen to make the checkpoint bar despawn effect unvisible on the screen
- dying in the 1st obstacle.
This way when you respawn, the 1st checkpoint bar will be still there. To do the glitching starting at ~0:01, you need to press reset. After experimenting this, it looks like that this could only happens if you were in a special lag frame. You can try to step into 1 line through debugger and you will get the same effect for 1 frame. If you do this constantly, it won't work because they will be simple lag frames. I also think the same as the video's author: this is either the result of a bad cart or emulating issues of FCEUX. If you restart without any lag frames, the only thing you can achieve is make an empty cutscene text because you can change 2-3 memory values that won't be reseted. Notice that this state uses a "different game logic" than the warp does.
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I don't want to create another thread, so I comment here.
I'm planning to do a 1P Warp version. There's already a published (and obsoloted because of wrong ROM used) version, so I'm gonna redo it with using Aglar's tricks and implementing more improvements.
Some things I observed:
Stage 1 - you can avoid the 2 lag frames and be faster by 2 frames by letting go of R (saves 4 frames)
Stage 8 - you can manipulate both which "fish towers" should breed and when and where they should swim. My experimentations shows that even if I spawn them as fast as possible (spawning the blue and yellow on right "fish tower" on 1st and 2nd frame) won't save time in eating the yellow fish. This means that the 1st moment I can eat the yellow fish is 126 frames. While, eating the blue one is faster by 10 or more frames. So this route will be changed too.
edit (forgot to write down): The time they spawn depends on previous inputs that changes the RNG (more than 100 times within a frame). On different values, different spawn will start. For example if 0x0012 is equal with 9F or A0, the right ones will breed out instantly.
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Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Maybe "trill" is the more correct term?
I checked your examples and yes, these are trills and has nothing to do with arpeggios. I'm 100% sure that there are more games with trills than arpeggios on NES, I think that my examples also have this (except super mario)
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Warp wrote:
As there might be some slight confusion about what I meant when I used the term "arpeggio", it's the trick very typical in 8-bit chip music (used in systems with very limited sound hardware) of alternating very rapidly between several (usually three) notes in order to "simulate" more sound channels than there really are. Much more rapidly than what "arpeggio" originally means in classical/traditional music. This gives a very distinctive "chip music" sound quality to the music.
I already mentioned this example in my original post, but here are a few more: Xenon (Spectrum 128), Commando (C64), Cobra (C64), Renegade (Spectrum 128), Ninja Massacre (Spectrum 128).
Much more rapidly than what "arpeggio" originally means in classical/traditional music." -> this sentence doesn't make a sense. Search for my examples and you will understand.
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feos wrote:
What Meshoggah is talking about isn't acually arpegios, and in tabs it can be nailed as tapping (2 notes, where one or both may change during the figure, while arpegio plays mostly a 3-note chord for the whole part).
I'm talking about sweep picking/synth arpeggios mostly in my examples, to be more precise:
Super Mario Bros: flag goes up, Silver surfer: main theme, Castlevania 3: stage 5? That one with a rather extended arpeggio (3-4 octaves), it has birds in the beginning of the track =D
Also feos, come online on ICQ =)
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I heard a lot of arpeggios in various NES games, just to say famous ones: Super Mario Bros, Silver Surfer, Castlevania (3 mostly) or any games with (neo)classical music.
edit: you can also search them by looking top rated guitar tabs, shredders used to nail those songs.
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