Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Err not exactly... the Angler is actually weak to Holy attacks, so if you use Focus x2 + Aura you should be able to take it out in basically one hit (if not Garr can finish it off). Like I said in the last post, Gambit also seems to work differently to "real" criticals, so I'll need to see if I can find out what that's all about as well.
EDIT: Derp, it was because Ryu had the Feathersword equipped, and Gaist has 25% Wind element resistance. So yeah, Gambit should beat out Thunder Claw in the upcoming Ammonite fight, if you do use it there.
EDIT 2: That in turn would mean Ryu could pull off elemental criticals in the Ammonite fight with the Barbarossa... but he'd also do slightly less against the Elder, and possibly fail to EX-turn later bosses like Manmo, so I'm sticking to my story for now >_>
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
janus wrote:
does that include elemental damage?
Well yeah, outside of enemy "type" weaknesses (e.g. Dragon, Demon) the only weaknesses this game has are elemental. You can test it in the Gaist fight, where Aura does more damage than Frost Claw (although Gambit does not, so I have no idea what's up with that).
janus wrote:
Should I buy a Barbarosa in Junk town? I have enought money, if not the old painting should solve the problem
It would help out against the Ammonites, but it also weighs a heap... you might be better off waiting to get a PiercingEdge in Kombinat, which Rei can use as well.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
janus wrote:
since it's based on defense, I doubt it. The only armour I can get is light clothing, and even that, I don't wear to gain agility.
Even without armour, Ryu still has 60 Def before the D.Zombie fight, which is almost an extra half again on his current Pwr stat. If he can take Shroom with basically the same stat, I think that should be enough.
Also, the exact formula for critical hits was just discovered over at GFAQs; it's 2x base damage plus the equivalent of a Spirit Blast/Mighty Chop (i.e. a Def-ignoring hit at 1/4 power). As such, critical hits are always stronger than hitting a 2x weakness.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
janus wrote:
http://rapidshare.com/files/442221862/movie.pxm
On the rerun, I will definitely work on the defense formation abuse. Indeed : in narrow corridors, it's impossible to make the formation, hence greatly delaying battles.
Garr helps with this as well, if you're able to bring him along.
Is there a reason you waited so long to give Ryu the Titan Belt? It would have saved time in every fight from Gazer onward. You also give Momo the Flame Chrysm but then don't use it to remove HugeSlug's coating, and I have a feeling the Underground Lab will be faster if you just bring Peco along rather than switch Rei in and walk all the way back.
Thinking back, would Last Resort give Ryu enough Pwr to beat the Dragon Zombie with Super Combo?
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
janus wrote:
http://rapidshare.com/files/441820882/movie.pxm
ready to go back at the plant, but also to seek Meryleep. She gives speed; should I only worry about Rei getting her? And Garr, should he apprentice under Bunyan?
Ryu will probably need the Agl later. Unless you intend on using Garr a lot, I doubt Bunyan is worth it, although you could put him under when you go back to get Super Combo.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
praetarius3 wrote:
since i can't read that, i tried a translator...
did i decipher that right? (first column p.def the other two def against int/spr?)
If that's the really case then it's kind of interesting, because no regular enemy in the game has higher than 61 MDef, and some of the GB's really pile it on.
praetarius3 wrote:
as a first thought, order should be close to the hp order i wrote (since with broken kevin we can ignore def and go for highest hp first)
Honestly, with the type of damage output you'll be getting, you might save more frames by minimizing overworld flight time instead.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Glad to be of help :D
I thought it was possible to get a discount on the Claymore so that you could get it before the contest, but I forgot that discount was for the one shop only. There are a couple more places where you could get the extra cash, but they're all out of the way. You may want to test Flame + Defender in the Emitai fight though; it boosts his Pwr slightly more, and if you can do over 300 damage in one hit you can break his control over the Golems instantly.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Double Peist
I was looking over the stats for the dragon transformations, and the strongest single-transformation before getting the Force gene is actually the Wildfire (formed with Miracle + Thorn + Reverse). If someone can't remember, that's the golden Whelp form with greatly boosted Def but 10% HP. It gives the same Pwr boost at the Kaiser, but its biggest downside is actually the fact that it costs 27 AP, and Bunyan murders Ryu's AP pool. It's also very fast, so EX-turns are viable, but to stay in the form for more than one round Ryu will need 42 AP (or a Wisdom Seed/Fruit). Assuming he stays under Bunyan, he'll have exactly that at Lv19, or at Lv18 with two Magic Shards.
The form becomes available after getting the Miracle gene, which is in Mt Zublo before the Gisshan fight. Aside from the potential it has to actually be faster, I think it'd be a great addition to the TAS to see something with 12 HP wrecking bosses. It also gets Charge, which can do incredible damage at high Def values and would be really fun to see used once or twice. Then if Janus also gets the ??? gene, he'll be able to use the Mammoth form and its immensely powerful MeteorStrike, which will be useful against Manmo and the forced boss re-fights in Myria Station.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
janus wrote:
Can I skip hitting all the switches and only press the ones on the big tombstone?
Yes you can. Getting Bunyan was also quicker than I remember, so he's probably worth it after all. You may want to get Meryleep as soon as she's available though, otherwise there might be some difficulties with getting EX-turns on Gaist.
Notes for the upcoming areas:
-There are a couple of Ginsengs/Vodka Shots available in the upcoming areas, which are the only way of boosting attack before Momo learns Might, and even then there are some fights later on where she isn't available/feasible. One is behind Wyndia (reached on the overworld map, a bit out of the way), and the other is in the building behind Palet when you meet him at the dump.
Momo's Tower has a heap of potentially useful stuff in it:
-Completing the puzzle to get the Flame and Ice Chrysm will probably be worth it. The Flame Chrysm gives Momo the best damage output against the Mutant and can be used later to power the lighthouse (she shouldn't need it for Gazer), while the Ice Chrysm lets her do good damage to the Dodai and Charybdis & Scylla.
-The HyperBots in Momo's Tower teach Blitz, which I think will be a great skill for her to learn (provided you can get a lone HyperBot encounter), letting her do good multi-target damage in the Emitai and Gisshan fights, while hits on her can be manipulated to miss. Additionally, they have a 1/64 to drop another Ginseng!
-The Orcs there also teach Last Resort, and it could greatly improve Ryu's damage output much later on in the Elder fight, especially with a half-decent set of armour. You can't get them to appear with HyperBots though. They have a 1/128 chance of dropping a Titan Belt, which could actually make up for not-getting the Ivory Dice (mentioned below).
-Beating the Dodai gives Ryu a serious boost in power, which should easily make up for the extra fighting time over the first part of the game. Beating it flat will move Ryu from Lv8 to Lv14, but getting the Ivory Dice from Momo's Tower will get him to Lv17 (Nina has to power up the crystal 6 times, but there are no encounters in that room). However, even with the Claymore (which he really should have), Momo's damage output (w/Ice Chrysm) will save a lot of turns over Ryu's, and Claw has some very useful skills for her to learn. I think the best way to beat the Dodai will be like this:
- First two turns, Claw is manipulated to use Blind and Double Blow for Momo to learn. Blind is extremely useful in the Gazer fight; it doubles his exp and prevents him from using Eye Beam. Double Blow will allow Momo to beat the Dodai much more quickly, because she can't get criticals and Blitz automatically hits multiple targets (and might be weaker against single targets anyway, I dunno). She may not survive Double Blow, so you may need to force a miss.
- Third turn, Momo uses a Ginseng on herself, to boost her Pwr from 80 to 100 (it gives a 26% increase). This will give her 40% extra damage per Double Blow hit, and save about four turns on average.
- From there she attacks the Dodai, doing close to 200 damage per turn, until it's weak enough for Ryu to beat in one hit. Then she offs herself, and lets Ryu finish it (if you want to use the Ivory Dice he will have to use it first turn). This ends up being much faster than having Ryu fight it himself, and the skills will be of no use to him.
This is based on the strat David uses in his current speedrun, enhanced by Double Blow, the Ginseng, and obviously no misses :D
-You might want to transfer Garr's Titan Belt to Ryu in the Stallion fight rather than have to bring the menu up later. Stallion also has a 1/64 chance of dropping a Holy Mantle, which decreases the wild encounter rate and could prove extremely useful!
I think that'll do for now.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Thinkies:
-By my count, the fishing section takes currently takes about 3 1/2 minutes. I really have to wonder if McNeil manor would be that much slower without it.
-The Molotovs and Flare add very little in the Pooch fight. It should be faster to just manipulate crit + reprisals off Rei.
-Killing off Rei and Teepo will only make a difference if it lets Ryu end a fight one turn earlier later on. Having Teepo die on the first turn of the Amalgam battle would actually save time though, and his lost damage is easily made up for by Rei getting a slightly stronger crit like he does on the final turn.
EDIT:
Mastania wrote:
No, you just have to choose to fight Teepo in Eden.
My bad; it's Myria who gives you the choice at the end.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
I think the way it works is that if you move the right number of steps and then save and reload, the map then gets loaded properly and you can continue from that area.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
It takes 14 (well, 15, but the difference isn't important) boosts to max out a Lava Man's exp, at 64563. Beating two would be enough to send Ryu straight to ~Lv38, two characters to ~Lv32, or three to ~Lv29. Beating them when they have 999 Def will involve Spirit Blast/Frost or Iceblast/a crit maybe, as well as Fire nulling/absorbing gear. I think inoculations stack with gear, if not it's easily check-able.
IMO it would kinda suck a lot of the variety out of the game though, and in a TAS that's going to be around 8 or 9 hours long that's a pretty big deal. It might not even be worth the time it takes, considering it would take multiple minutes to set up, and Ryu in the right dragon form should be hitting 999 Pwr by the end of the game anyway.
Because this is a TAS, I think a lot of things might not turn out to be necessary. The ability to crit/dodge on demand means that dragons/masters won't be as big of a deal as they are normally. Meryleep may allow for EX-turns against Gaist, and the passive +10 to dodge% might help with luck forcing, but there will be no reason to get Shadowwalk. Bunyan teaches Super Combo, which could be used to achieve infinite hax in a TAS, but again it would only be awesome to watch the first time. Dragon-wise, outside of a couple of cases, crits will do just as much as using dragon forms to hit elemental weaknesses, and early on the turn it takes to transform for a small Pwr boost could be spent attacking instead.
I might actually just go ahead and right up a whole possible route plan, what with this being my favourite game and all. Final note, if a fishing extravaganza is done, I think it should be done as a proof-of-concept example rather than as part of a real run. I don't think it would be particularly interesting to watch, much less to create :/
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Kitsune wrote:
I believe Janus will be going for the good ending, which means picking everything up, right?
No, you just have to choose to fight Teepo in Eden.
The speedrun guide on GFAQs is a bit outdated now. If you keep doing it in smallish chunks though I'll be sure to mention anything as it comes up.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Much as I love my BoF, an almost-the-same run of a four hour TAS doesn't seem like it'd be worth the time, and it might just be voted off after submission anyway. Does TASVideos even allow direct ports of the same game? Can't remember seeing any, at least.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Considering how many times you've done the game over, I think this one should be ready for submission. I mean it has so much judging competition at the moment!!! I actually find this one more interesting than the BoF2 TAS, because nearly every battle has a different strategy aside from near the very end. I guess you could test and see if Goda could be beaten more quickly without Agni, but that's all I can think of.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
The new strats for taking out the Archers and Spearmen look really great. I'm not posting much but I've always got my eye on this thread. Hopefully this'll be the run that gets submitted :D
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
praetarius3 wrote:
about tropical island;
I plan to keep the weapons from Rolante until Sultan (or the ice town), so if Kevin+Riesz can't kill an enemy in the time Hawk walks to the exit, then so be it.
Good luck with that D: By the way, this WIP reminded me of something that always bothered me - do enemies give out their exp the moment they die, or do you have to wait for it to flash up on screen to receive it properly?
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
praetarius3 wrote:
Seems like it's entirely possible to max his atk only once and then keep it through the rest of the game; flammie in case it comes after boss, timing lvl ups so they come in rooms where at least 1 enemy can be left while his lvl-up screen comes up,...
Wow. That would be pretty crazy to watch. What about day/night issues though? At the very least you should run into a day cycle in the Cave of Darkness.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
I say 4 or 5 because there are no mandatory fights on the way to Dolan, but after you beat him you only get dumped outside the tower and Flammie can't be called from there. IIRC it's like this:
Dangaard/Xan Bie/Mispolm/Land Umber/Dolan: No mandatory fights
Lightgazer: One mandatory fight
Fiegmund: A bunch
Lightgazer and Fiegmund's areas are also prime places for getting Papa Poto's Claws :D As for Demon's Claws, I'm not sure how many you'll have a chance to get, but they could be more useful for Lightgazer than the FMH re-fight.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
praetarius3 wrote:
in the Mana Land... I think I would have to make a small detour? Not sure.
I'm pretty certain the goddess statues are directly on the path to the tree. As for money, you may be able to get off easier in a TAS by buying less armour and healing items, and manipulating a lot of Gold Bullettes. Beyond that, Dangaard drops like 20000 Luc for some reason, which is enough to outfit everyone with new gear.
I also came up with a strategy for burning through the GB's really quickly, but it was a bit impractical for a real speedrun. Assuming you're aware of the glitch that lets Kevin max out his attack by transforming and then calling Flammie repeatedly, it's possible to glitch him only once and then keep max attack for about 4 or 5 GB's in a row by denying him the chance to level up by calling Flammie immediately after every battle is completed (they mostly dump you back at the start of the area). This sets him to "0 exp to level up", and he will (hopefully) remain this way every time he gains exp as long as Flammie is called right away. I say 4 or 5 because that's how many areas have no mandatory enemy fights; otherwise, if you gain a level on the way to a GB, Kevin will lose his glitch'd power. This would mean fighting a bunch of GBs at Lv18 or so, but I've managed it so it can't be that hard :D
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
praetarius3 wrote:
About the moon coin idea - sure it would work; cast any necessary stat-ups/downs, switch p2 off, p1 -> Riese, video end; I thought the ending required a bit of input, but that's not the case. Although it will be strange to have the game go on so much longer; 10-20 mins w/out input?
I should clarify this; the Moon Coin is a separate item altogether. It casts Lunatic, which drops an enemies' max HP by 20% (which in the case of the final bosses is about 10000 damage). It may work on Bigieu too, but I can't be sure as she might be immune to Moon elemental stuff. It's also possible to glitch the Archdemon so that the fight ends after the first form rather than moving to the second, although I don't know the method.
Oh and I missed this:
praetarius3 wrote:
The plan was to fight enough so that I can class change right after I have gotten both water and fire spirit - as in after bill&ben and 3x golems.
Lv20+ at gildervine would be useful.
The grind to reach Lv18 by that stage in a TAS would be incredibly prohibitive, even if you fight every enemy on the way to the fire crystal. The game just doesn't give you enough exp, and really it's not like Glidervine is that hard anyway.
Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
neo_omegon wrote:
No. The effect of the item is Moon Sabre to everyone. If you strictly follow the TAS rule, it would be the fastest way to get a movie end, though it may be impossible and the movie may be going to look queer one.
Oh right, of course. So you're saying give the computer-controlled characters Moon Sabre and end all player input? That's pretty clever :O
I'll check out the Japanese stuff once my connection gets back up to speed on Tuesday.