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turska wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
Tangent wrote:
SmashManiac wrote:
- p4wn3r's run is on a deprecated emulator
This part's incorrect, or at least not fully accurate. VBA's deprecated, but it's still accepted
And where is that part now not fully accurate?
I mean of course it can still be accepted, else it would be listed as Not accepted at all.
However, deprecation can still be a reason for rejection.
That's not the case. VBA movies are currently accepted, and there are no plans for rejecting VBA submissions; if there were, you'd see news about it on the front page like with the Snes9x 1.43 deprecation. If VBA has major issues emulating a game, then emulator choice could be a reason for rejecting movies of that particular game, but outside that there will be no VBA rejections for the foreseeable future.
How the hell was that relevant to anything I said?
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Tangent wrote:
SmashManiac wrote:
- p4wn3r's run is on a deprecated emulator
This part's incorrect, or at least not fully accurate. VBA's deprecated, but it's still accepted
And where is that part now not fully accurate?
I mean of course it can still be accepted, else it would be listed as Not accepted at all.
However, deprecation can still be a reason for rejection.
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Cyber_Kun wrote:
My point being here is that if all the port is some bot work that some idiot at TAS'es like myself could do with the bare minimum knowledge
And my point wasn't that I'm bad at this, my point was that it is indeed not easy to recreate these TASes to be optimized.
That's also why I think that if someone managed to recreate the current any% run on SMW on an accurate emulator with every single optimization the current run does too, the credit to him is justified. Except when a single flaw in the run is discovered, then it has no right to obsolete the previous run.
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Tangent wrote:
but dupicating someone else's work is also a lot easier than doing new or original
If you mean by "duplicating" that they are doing the same RNG and lag reduction strategies and such, then I have to disagree.
I agree that it is harder to do a new TAS, but it is not harder than finding optimizations and then applying them.
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I don't just dislike the idea with the automated TAS converting thing, I absolutely hate it!
Seriously guys, creating a TAS is effort, doing thousands of rerecords to be sure that this is the best way one can do. And then just creating a bot where you can't be sure that this TAS is perfect? I think it's not nice to see a TAS you created to be converted to a better emulator and then be given credit for a possibly suboptimal run.
Converting movies by hand gives the opportunity to find optimizations or even new strategies to beat the game.
Are you really thinking that a bot can be created that is so reasonable that it can convert the slightest RNG manipulation and lag reduction strategies without writing a bot for each game in its own?
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DRybes wrote:
My vote is no, because a more accurate emulator is not used, so the slower time is not justified.
cool when did the vote question change to
Do you want this movie accepted? ?
also lol @ not using a more accurate emulator which I totally didn't
DRybes wrote:
As an aside, I feel it is appropriate to credit a previous author in the "by" if a substantial portion of their work and input is being used.
good thing I didn't use the input.
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This run is actually faster (not just due to emulator differences), which Masterjun put a lot of work into in order to do.
Yes vote.
From his description, it sounds like all he did was resync it due to core differences, which happened to get to the desired RNG two frames faster. Which would mean that again, all that changed was the emulator.
yeah so?
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Sparky and that red doo gives me Spark.
A red doo? Do you mean that pink Waddle Doo or a brown Waddle Dee?
If it's the Waddle Dee then it is obvious that you get Spark. To get Mix you have to swallow two enemies that would give you powers which a Waddle Dee does not.
That two. Don't know the names. If I swallow them, I get spark.
Yep that's a Waddle Dee. And as I said, Waddle Dees don't give you powers so they can't be used to get Mix.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Sparky and that red doo gives me Spark.
A red doo? Do you mean that pink Waddle Doo or a brown Waddle Dee?
If it's the Waddle Dee then it is obvious that you get Spark. To get Mix you have to swallow two enemies that would give you powers which a Waddle Dee does not.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
The 1 frame improvement comes from a better positioning at swallowing the 3 creatures, but trolls me after the 2nd jump at room 2. Lua script shows me ~+600 movement speed but it's actually gets reduced for no reason.
Well, the reason is because you jumped on that 45° slope. The game then changes your position by using another address (I guess) because as soon as you hit the bottom of another floor you will regain the original speed...
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CoolKirby wrote:
Good work, Masterjun! Do you think the run can be improved further?
If nobody finds a better route (I also tried some other ones, but they were slower or caused too much lag) then I think this run is already or almost really optimized.
The only thing I could imagine is slowing down at random places to get lucky and reduce the lag...
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TASeditor wrote:
The RNG can manipulated with jumping.
By testing I figured out that if you don't jump, the next enemy will always do the same. Then I searched RAM for a value that changes only after I jumped and I found $003E and $003F. A quick cheat test and I found out that these affect what the enemies do and thus they are the RNGs.
Now how do they advance?
Well, after going through a trace log I couldn't really find a simple formula for it but I wrote a lua script that calculates future RNGs. It does a lot of shifting and rotating with these two values... 11 times.
And how do they determine what the enemy does?
I could somewhat simplify that formula. It adds and subtracts a few values indexed by $003E and the result is a number between 0 and 3 so that there are 4 different things that the enemy can do.
For example a Waddle Doo:
0 - jumping
1 - walk
2 and 3 - attack
Why does jumping call the RNG?
Because it is not jumping that changes the RNG, it is landing! The star that flies away from Kirby when he touches the ground can have 8 different directions.
(It is determined by $003E % 8 where 0 is upwards and then it goes clockwise so that 7 is top left)
The lua script can be found here.
With that knowledge I went ahead and completely started a new movie but I didn't find any better routes for RNG. I could however reduce the lag for some places... only to get more lag on other places (sometimes even slowing down can remove lag frames). I ended up with a total of 2183 frames... which we already had... damn.
btw, to make that movie work on the new PPU just replace the last frame by an input that presses every button except Select
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TASeditor wrote:
Here's a one frame improvement until entering room 3.
I saved one frame in room 2 but I'm not sure if the 3rd room will work as fine because the last enemy doesn't like to jump...
I might look into the physics of this game and understand how the slope jump works...
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TASeditor wrote:
Masterjun wrote:
I decided to join this frame war so here is my 2183 frames run (3 frames faster than current). I optimized the jump through the slope which might can be optimized even more (AAAAH LAG)
Very nice. did you just improve the slope jump part? or did you use MESHUGGA's first room improvement as well?
I used your movie but I guess there are more optimized WIPs somewhere in this thread
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CoolKirby wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
You shouldn't rely on this address solely. The glitch is CPU clock* dependent (you can verify this by pressing input at 4th (1st non-lag) frame and see that the only thing changes is the cpu clock.
Would that mean delaying the frame would change it? Or only a completely different sequence of input or events (the enemies using their attacks or jumping, for instance)?
I debugged it as well and I agree that there are strange things going on. I not sure but the code basically jumps to $904A with the wrong bank loaded (?) and then executed a bunch UNDEFINED instructions and BRKs until it sometime executes a RTI and starts executing normal code (credits routine?).
I decided to join this frame war so here is my 2183 frames run (3 frames faster than current). I optimized the jump through the slope which might can be optimized even more (AAAAH LAG)
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