Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
maxx wrote:
edit: I guess after saw but before magic is a possible place for DC, but it doesn't seem faster at all. going from DC up to magic takes way longer than going from magic down to DC, and the warp song out of KD's room to Lake Hylia makes the most sense. Also MrGrunz I hope this is the fastest way to DC from magic, because it looks awesome :)
Totally forgot about that trick, it's like the best shortcut ever :D
That is definitely the quickest way to get to DC and would be used in the route using Light Arrow Cutscene to BA.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Slowking wrote:
Yeah sure we are outraged. So outraged, that we calmly try to explain to you, over and over, why something does not work.
At this point we are just really annoyed.
Do your own timing or go the fuck away.
That doesn't seem like calmly trying to explain why something doesn't work... Thanks for proving my point. cheers
I don't share the same opinion as Slowking, but your answer to that is a bit wrong. When Slowking said, that "we calmly try to explain to you" he was talking mainly about my answers to your suggestions. I usually answered factual and explained in detail, why your idea won't be quicker. I always gave a few reasons and you often simply ignored a few of them.
I'm always glad if somebody contributes nice ideas, almost everything is worth thinking about when it comes to OoT. Yet you still have to be able accept that one of your ideas doesn't work the way you want it to and that is where the problem begins. You just keep suggesting the same thing over and over again.
I hope that you don't stop contributing your thoughts, but at least change your attitude towards your own ideas ;)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
tall wrote:
I'm thinking I'll get into TASing this game because I like it, and it seems new stuff is still possible. Any suggestions on what to do to get started from scratch?
you should come to the zelda irc, swordless link and I are usually there, so whenever you'd have any questions, we cold help you ;)
server: irc.speeddemosarchive.com
channel: #zelda
Spider-Waffle wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
come on, spiderwaffle.
Did you ever watch Bloobiebla's TAS? It is clearly fastest to go via Hyrule Field.
Well he never goes from LW to KV through DMT so nothing is clearly faster. Also, you'd have to add the difference in time from going to DC before magic and when going by DC.
It takes him 50s to get from LW item to door of shop going through HF, and 27s to get from LW to DMT going through GC, It should take about the same amount of time extra to do DC before magic as it would to get from GC exit to KV.
So if anyone of the routes is clearly faster I think it's going through GC to DMT, by about 13s.
Why do you keep throwing numbers around, that aren't even based on exact timings you got by TASing the stuff?
And other than that, you are so keen on being right, that you simply ignore the stuff I write. I wrote, that we want to warp out of the Boss Room of Dodongo's Cavern instead of dying and going up to magic then. We get magic before Dodongo's Cavern and then warp to Lake Hylia after killing King Dodongo. And that's why we do DC after Magic.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Spider-Waffle wrote:
With Navi trick on sidehop, doing DC on Mush timer seems very good for TAS, this way you could save 20s by not going off route and do DC after getting mushroom.
I don't get what you want with that mushroom thing.
DC is done AFTER magic, for 2 obvious reasons:
- Once you have Poacher's Saw, you RBA warp songs. So doing DC this late in the run allows us to warp out of the boss room after beating King Dodongo instead of dieing. We have to warp to Lake Hylia anyway to get to Gerudo Valley, where we get the Broken Sword, so wapring instead of dieing saves quite some time.
- To get from Lost Woods to Kakariko it is cleary fastest to travel over Hyrule Field. Going through Goron City after Odd Mushroom would cost quite some time, especially because we don't have the hookshot.
And before somebody asks: You can't use the Ocarina in Boss Rooms, but to be still able to warp there, we can simply use Ocarina Items (Backflip + Bottle + Bomb).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
okay, once again.
There's a rock behind the skulltula house, 3 seconds away from the woman giving you cojiro. There we also get our bugs from.
We get 5 bombs from that rock and use 1 bomb of those to blow up the bushes next to the tree. I think we should be able to get at least 15 bombs just from that one explosion at the tree. Afterwards we go to Hyrule Field and get to the Lost Woods from there.
Just watch Bloob's run once again and you'll understand.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
As Slowi said, we don't RBA Gauntlets, we simply RBA bomb bag and a bottle on to the bomb slot (needed to be able to get bomb drops).
After that we pick up a stone (no need for gauntlets here) and get a bomb drop. Using this 5 bombs we blow up bushes and get many many more bomb drops. Bushes can be found in many different places; the best places to refill bombs is probably Lost Woods and Lake Hylia.
Btw, because we would want to avoid any controversies we would steal the rod twice instead of using deku stick on B to kill King Dodongo. There's no need to start a discussion about this. What will be used is decided by the people who do the run, Swordless Link, Bloobiebla and me and we all agree that for this route dropping a few seconds and stealing the rod twice is the way to go.
Another note on the TAS route. As we get access to bomb drops without visiting Dodongo's Cavern we can put it anywhere we want. It is clearly best to put DC right before getting magic. Lemme show you the reasons for that:
- Doing to DC after getting Cojiro and going to Lost Woods to trade for Odd Mushroom afterwards would force us to watch both the Death Mountain Trail and Goron City Intro cutscenes. Entering this areas from different entrances would allow us to skip them.
- After getting magic we warp to Lake Hylia any way, because this is the quickest way to get to Gerudo Valley to trade for the Broken Sword. When we are at lake Hylia any way, we can simply quickly hover up to the Fishing Pond once again and steal the rod.
And please, I beg nobody to suggest using Lon Lon to get Stick on B. It is clearly slower, because we have to wait for the egg to hatch and thus want to spend as much time at areas with progressing ingame-time as possible. In Lon Lon ingame doesn't progress.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
spider-waffle, cool down.
As I said already all the posts above were about RTS, about a REAL TIME SPEEDRUN. A Real Time Speedrun is no TASm it is played on console.
In my post I also said, that in a TAS we would of course hover into the head. We can manipulate as many bombs as we want and bomb hovering up would take roughly 24 seconds, which is really fast ;)
And the goal of the new TAS is SUB 40.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
AngerFist wrote:
Grunz, that was uncalled for. Settle down gentlemen.
I should probably stop posting anything on the internet. No matter what I post, people always find a way to make me look rude, sonikkustar even managed to call me a racist, because I was against publishing abeshi's OoT TAS, although I stated it was solely because of the technical level of it (long before the thing about abeshi's MM TAS).
Like sonicpacker and kuwaga said already, it was just a silly joke. I simply realized that OoT surpasses SM64 now at least when it comes to the number of posts.
Oh well, back to the topic:
The thread should be opened again. It has been locked for 2 days, I'm pretty sure everybody has realized now, that it is time to end the discussion at this point.
I want to keep discussing routes, especially the new "All Temples" route, which will quite a lot different due to all the new warps. We still don't know if the crash while Wrong Warping can be avoided on Mupen, though.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Cardboard wrote:
Goldenboy wrote:
And what two questions were they?
Exactly how much time is saved by using J instead of U going on text alone, down to the second (or better yet, frame) and how much time could be saved by the fire forest warp thing Swordless Link has mentioned on Youtube.
Thanks in advance.
It is around 12 minutes. There's no need to say it is 42596 frames, it wouldn't even change the whole situation a bit.
We don't know if the fire temple to forest temple warp works on Mupen. It crashes for me, just like the Dodongo's Cavern to Gerudo Training Ground warp. Maybe it works on version 1.2, but I haven't checked yet.
That warp would save around 1:45. The warp is onlyy a sideeffect of a new technique we discovered, though: Medaillons/Stones cutscenes skipping.
I'm not sure how much time exactly can be saved with it, but it'd probably be around 10-12 minutes.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Is it now possible to use tingle tuner on dolphin? A TAS without it would be really pointless in my opinion, we should just wait until someone fixes dolphin, so we can do all the BK Skips.
That video and the route made me really interested in the game now, though. Super Swim seems to be as mighty as BLJ in SM64 and there sure are more tricks left to discover using it.
I actually told myself to never do any long TASes anymore after finishing Majora's Mask, though, because the time it takes to do such long runs simply doesn't seem to be worth it, at least to me. So a full game TAS of mine is very unlikely.
One thing I will definitely do is starting some glitch hunting once I figure out how to properly use dolphin.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
sonicpacker wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
One question on this pole BLJ in general. I've tried to TAS this once myself (and horribly failed) and this question occured to me:
Can you grab the pole only with a limited amount of speed and did you use the max. number in your test video?
There is no max speed for grabbing things like poles. It all has to do with Mario's position. My BLJ was the max speed that let me stay inside the boxed area (and not fly out the back), so I guess yes, I had "max" speed.
hmm, you couldn't you then grab that other pole with a huge amount of speed, get forward speed and then do a jump up into the elevator boxed area?
Just throwing out ideas, I know how annoying it can be if people that are unfimiliar with TASing some game keep suggesting things you've tested several times already.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
One question on this pole BLJ in general. I've tried to TAS this once myself (and horribly failed) and this question occured to me:
Can you grab the pole only with a limited amount of speed and did you use the max. number in your test video?
Oh and someone keen on telling me how to keep the speed after grabbing the pole? I used MHS while TASing and it always seemed like Mario instantly lost all his speed after grabbing it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
I've read all posts now and saw many different opinions on almost everything.
I've sometimes read stuff like: "TASvideos is bigger than this run and Swordless Link. He broke the rules and thus the run should be rejected."
My comment on this:
People here with this opinion have to be aware of the following. There's a huge Zelda community with its own website, forum and IRC, where we discuss our route, discuss new strategies and also discuss our TASes. The TASvideos community had no influence on the creation of this run. As the Zelda community is completely independent from this place, own rules were created. One example is using the J rom.
The Zelda community doesn't need TASvideos for anything, it can host its own runs on Zeldaspeedruns.com and on the many big youtube accounts they have.
But neither does TASvideos need the Zelda speedrunners for anything at all. TASvideos could easily exist without the contribution of the many zelda players.
Viewing the rules of TASvideos as absolute and applicable for every single run (many people definitely do this) you built barriers between the TASvideos community and other communities of many different games.
Being able to be flexible by allowing rules to be modified in special cases makes it way easier to cooperate with other communites. Although I stated that both websites don't need each other, publishing the run here is certainly a WIN-WIN-situation for both websites (ZSR and TASvideos) and thus cooperation between both communites would be way better than one side bitching about the other one.
Dooty wrote:
nfq wrote:
Dooty wrote:
this sentence made me change my mind.
Why? I don't understand.
If the site is of no importance to him, nor the rules I do not see why his run should be accepted here.
I may have misunderstood what he said, and if so, my apologies.
(okay, sorry, I'll keep running away from these kind of topics...)
We are judging the run, not Swordless Link. As you seem to love this website that much, that you vote for rejecting every run that is made by a person who doesn't fully support TASvideos, you are actually doing damage to the place you love so much. The goal of this site is to host the best and most entertaining TASes and by rejecting runs out of the dislike towards an author you will never be able to achieve this goal.
Other than that rejecting runs out of this reason would TASvideos slowly but surely make it lose its reputation of hosting the best runs and other places would gain more importance for any fans of TASing.
DK64_MASTER wrote:
I'm more of a Majora's Mask fan, and every single run that I've seen of that game trumps any OOT Run imaginable in terms of entertainment and route-planning.
Nothing but the TRUTHCouldn't resist posting this :D
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Enterim wrote:
Slowking wrote:
Anywho. I just noticed again how fucking pointless this discussion is. How do you keep draggin me back in?
As long as there is no route that is faster than the RBA route nobody will TAS this game with stick on B. If there is another route found we can still bash our skulls in.
For the time being, I'm out.
All the Ganonless routes (both with and without stick B) are already faster than the old RBA route by several minutes.
You and some other people misunderstood something completely. Of course skipping ganon is faster, this is out of question and has never even been questioned by anyone in this thread.
I created a route that beats forest temple to get Farore's Wind on B, which requieres Stick on B no matter what to get past the Door of Time as adult to be able to BA later on. This route is around a minute slower than using Light Arrow CS to do RBA, but it is much much much much more entertaining.
As long as it isn't faster nobody will TAS the route using Stick B, but once we find a way to make it faster I'll definitely do it, because I don't really care if tasvideos will accept it or not. The route is too awesome not be done.
Stick B could also save some time in the Light Arrow CS route, but stealing rod twice and dropping something around 30-40 seconds to avoid any controversies is definitely worth it. The huge difference between both routes is, that the no-Trading-Item-Route (no Light Arrow CS route) HAS to use Stick B to be doable.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
What I don't really get is, why people come here and say:
"Hey, I've never played Ocarina of Time, so watching this was ultra boring. Never seen such an uninteresting run, the boredom itself. I have to vote No."
By voting No out of this reasons you clearly state this opinion:
"Every run accepted on TASvideos has to entertain every kind of viewer to be acceptable."
There are almost no runs of any game out there, that are entertaining to people that haven't played the game. People that have played the game want to see the run, though, so there's quite a huge amount of visitors of TASvideos that want to see this (and also many other runs, I consider as ultra boring) and thus HAS to be accepted.
If you haven't played the game you are usually the wrong person to give a vote on a run of this certain game.
If it was the other way around, we'd probably have to reject most runs of RPG games.
Just an example:
To me the "Chrono Trigger glitched TAS" (awarded with TAS of 2009) is one of the most boring runs I have ever watched. That still doesn't stop me from understanding, that the run has to be very very entertaining for everybody knowing the game and thus deserves his "Star" and also deserves his award. This is the step some people in this thread have simply forgot about ;)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
yeah, I know. this would still cost quite some time. you also lose quite some time in forest temple.
The only place where Master Quest would be faster is dodongo's cavern, but that's all.
Only possible solution to this is beating deku tree as child link without stepping in the blue warp, but the master quest version has even more disadvantages like no bombchus from bottom of the well, which simply make the run way too slow compared to the traditional RBA route.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
petrie911 wrote:
Or you could do the run on Master Quest. There's no version of that where the Deku Stick on B doesn't work.
The idea is good, but the route doesn't work on master quest because you can't get access to the hover boots without song of time and the bow/slingshot.
The hover boots are requiered to clip past the closed door of time as adult link, so without them we won't be able to do Bottle Adventure by getting child again.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Ok, I'll explain it once again!
The GCN and Wii both emulate ocarina of time. Those consoles have a built in Mupen Emulator (not exactly Mupen, but an emulator. I use the term Mupen, though, because that will make it easier for most people to understand), that allows you to play the N64 version on these consoles.
This built in Mupen Emulator also allows you to use Stick B on GCN and Wii.
Now you guys want me to TAS this Mupen Emulator using Dolphin, although I could get access to the Mupen Emulator also without using Dolphin. Why make life harder than it actually is?
At the moment we try to stick to the rules in every single kind of situation. Rules are important, no question, but sometimes rules need exceptions or have to be modified for certain situations. It is just not possible to use them the same way for every kind of game ;)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Spider-Waffle wrote:
CosmoZSR wrote:
IMO the TAS should be on Dolphin (VC version). No idea how well it runs though.
^^, Also there's a new trick which uses stick on B, you equip sword the same time you swing bottle to get bugs I believe. Using this with Lon Lon route is how the new RTS WRs are archived now, it might even be faster than tektite. ZFG just got 49:02 with over a minute of mistakes, not mention other possible improvements like nuts from trees.
LLR is out of question. It is clearly slower for a TAS, because we have to wait for the Pocket Cucco to hatch. During this time we have to spend as much time in areas with progressing ingame-time and this is optimally archieved by going to the fishing pond. We are back at Kakariko right after the chicken hatches ;)
Btw, that trick ZFG uses is done get Stick on B later on by dying. If you die without ever having Master Sword equipped you will be swordless after dying with bottle on B. By doing what ZFG does you get stick on B back.
As you might have realized already, Spider-Waffle, if it is not totally necessary we want to avoid using Stick on B. For the RBA route it is easily possible to avoid this by stealing the rod a second time while going to Gerudo Valley (we are in Lake Hylia any way).
This costs around 20-30 seconds, though, but I dropping those is more than alright.
EDIT:
Just something else. You guys don't want stick B to be used, because a N64 TAS should be done in the boundaries of the N64 console.
Mupen is way too bad to archive the goal "emulate a N64 console perfectly". Just an example:
A few of the new Medaillon and Stone Cutscene Skips freeze on Mupen, whereas they seem to be very well possible on the original N64 console. That's why Mupen is in no way a perfect emulation of the N64.
That's why we definitely need a better Mupen. Especially a Mupen with both fixed Pause Delay and reset ability would be nice. I guess this will never happen, though.
Just wondering, what ever happened to the famous Mupen Plus project?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Synx wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
As I said already: Because it works on GCN and VC I'd definitely do a run using stick B, if was faster. Just look at the route! What is cooler? Trading eggs and mushrooms and dropping some bugs on the way or using the most absurd and entertaining route ever to archive the quickest time ocarina of time has ever been beaten in? I guess we all know the answer.
since nobody else is answering, I will give it a go.
I would like to see whatever is the fastest possible way of beating the game on the actuall console. I would feel cheated if you used any trick that wouldn't be theoreticly possible on my own game/console which I bought so long ago.
No matter the entertainment or the creativity of the tricks and route used in a run I would always prefer a faster run over the slower run.
Just my 2 cents though.
This is not part of the debate. Of course the fastest run is always superior. We are more discussing about the situation, that a route using stick B might be quicker and at the same time ultra entertaining.
Just to let you know, even if you would reject such a run: If the stick B route is faster, I'll do a run using that route. All console players use Stick B and don't care about the fact it doesn't work on N64, so why should I drop an amazing route, just because some people have different opinions on that issue.
And something else to know: tasvideos wants the TASer to use the U rom, actually. Using U rom the stick B route would be the quickest route available. RBA route is only faster on J rom ;)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(599)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
As I said already: Because it works on GCN and VC I'd definitely do a run using stick B, if was faster. Just look at the route! What is cooler? Trading eggs and mushrooms and dropping some bugs on the way or using the most absurd and entertaining route ever to archive the quickest time ocarina of time has ever been beaten in? I guess we all know the answer.
