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So let's come back to discussing strategies for the actual new run.
I created a route, that would skip all trading items and would be very entertaining to watch. Many problems occured while routing it, though, and each of them added a lot of extra time. I did some detailed timing (haven't timed the very last part of it yet) and it'll probably be around 50 seconds slower than doing traditional RBA and watching the Light Arrow Cutscene.
Light Arrow Cutscene allows you to get Farore's Wind on B without getting rid of shiek to get child again.
I simply share this route with you guys, because maybe someone finds an improvement or comes up with a badass for it. Just some little side note:
When first reading through it, it may seem very very slow. But believe me, it is really close to obsoleting the RBA route and isn't that what we all want?
Anyway, here is it:
Child Section:
- Pick up Sword
- 50 Rupees, buy Shield and Stick
- ESS Escape, Get Ocarina
- Owl Skip, A-Slide to Kakariko
- First Part of Cucco Collection, Cucco Dive into Well
- Get Bombchus (pick up 99 R), Leave the Well
- Finish Cucco Collection, Bottle
- A-Slide to Hyrule Field (9 Chus)
- Owl Skip, Water Slide to Market
- Buy Hylian Shield, To Hyrule Castle (8 Chus)
- Talk to Zelda, Lullaby Cutscene Skip (7 Chus)
- DoT Skip
Adult Part 1:
- A-Slide to Kakariko (6 Chus)
- A-Slide to Graveyard (5 Chus)
- Hookshot, Shadow Early (4 Chus)
- Get Hover Boots, Death Warp out (3 Chus)
- Back to Kakariko, A-Slide to Death Mountain (2 Chus)
- Enter Dodongo's Cavern, blow up wall (1 Chus)
- Chu in Staircase room (0 Chus), Get Bomb Bag
- Open Head, Bottle Switch Trick, Beat King Dodongo (14 B)
- Death Warp out
Adult Part 2:
- Get Magic (9 B)
- Enter Death Mountain Crater, Mega Flip to Goron City (8 B)
- To Lost Woods (6 B)
- Fill up Bombs, To Sacred Forest Meadow (19 B)
- Minuet CS Skip (16B)
- To Zora's River via Warp (11 B)
- Enter Zora's Domain, OoB to Lake Hylia Warp
- Hover to Pond (7 B), Steal Rod
- Warp Forest Temple, Climb Vines to dim the B button
- Poe CS Skip via Bottle Trick, Boss Key Skip
- Beat Phantom Ganon with Stick on B, Medaillon Death Skip (5 B)
- Death Warp to Temple of Time (4 B), Prelude CS Skip with Stick on B
- Get Child, Get Adult again to get Farore's Wind on B
- A-Slide your way to Dodongo's Cavern
- Warp to Credits
There are some controversies, though:
Usually using Deku Stick on B as Adult Link freezes the game on N64. On GCN and Virtual Console you can use Deku Stick on B without any problems. Mupen freezes only using Jabo as the Graphic Plugin, other plugins allow using Stick B as well.
Now there are 2 things to say about this:
1. Jabo allows you to get rid of the Pause delay without using the Mupen version, that has the Pause delay fixed. So without Jabo you can't use the Mupen-Reset-Version without having the Pause delay. That's why for the optimal route we'd need a new Mupen, that can reset and has no Pause delay at the same time. As there are already 2 Mupens and each of them can do one of them 2 things, combining them would do the job.
2. Some people say, that Stick on B as Adult shouldn't be allowed as it doesn't work on the original Ocarina of Time Version on N64. Both the GCN and VC version are official releases of OoT, though, so everybody has a different opinion on this issue. The console players on the one hand use Stick B in their runs, whereas Swordless Link for example said he'd never do a run using Stick B. Would be cool to hear some opinions on this from people here ;)
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THIS IS THE DAY WE ALL WAITED FOR!
6,5 years of glitch hunting and it has finally been done: Light Arrow Skip.
We OoT guys are simply the best, I can't believe it :D
About a new TAS:
I haven't fully investigated this yet, but both fire temple and dodongo's cavern crashed for me on Mupen, when I tried to do the Wrong Warp. Deku Tree worked, though. So let's hope we also find a way to warp to the end credits using Deku Tree.
Deku Tree would be fasted any way, as you need either megaton hammer, a Sword or a Deku Stick to kill King Dodongo (Bombs won't work and we Farore's Wind on B at that point).
Gohma on the other hand can be killed with either Light Arrows or Deku Nuts, so we were good to go with Gohma.
For now we plan to do BA for Farore's Wind on B using the Light Arrow CS, so we would be able to archieve a time of around 40 minutes using Japanese rom.
I still hope, that not doing the trade quest and finishing Forest Temple instead to be able to do BA by getting child and adult again is quicker. We have to time this a bit.
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we also figured out, that doing the CS skip in dodongo's cavern warps to gerudo's training, a possible faster route to the spirit temple.
One downside, though. I have tested this on Mupen and the normal cutscene skips work nicely. When you do a cutscene skip, that is linked to a wrong warp (fire temple, deku tree, dodongo's cavern) the game froze for me. This applies to fire temple and dodongo's cavern. deku tree worked nicely, though.
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maybe this will make the waiting for the MST TAS seem a bit shorter:
OoT / MM TAS Competition Task 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUYJa3tvmjA
would be cool to see some people from here giving this a shot as well. it's a lot of fun ;)
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looks very awesome.
one thing bothered me, though. I may very well be wrong, but it seems like the 2 frames were saved at the end/after the BLJ. if this is the case, I'd prefer a different camera angle at this part, because it was barely possible to see what is going on there.
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We are doing a task of the TAS competition again:
http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=995.0
Swordless Link and some other people are definitely going to join, would be cool to see some other people trying this as well. this is just for fun, no need to be a pro at TASing the game at all. everybody is welcome to take part ;)
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no, the major factor is ingame time, so the goal is to avoid as many areas without moving ingame time as possible. opening that chest and opening all the doors adds 3 seconds of no moving ingame time.
ingame time is the major factor, because we have to wait for the clock tower to open.
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Managed to save 210 frames or 3,5 seconds from the any% TAS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhpxw4bwAHQ
I also TASed the first cycle until talking to the scarecrow (after that saving time doesn't help anymore due to ingame time being the major factor) a while back. Saved another 150 frames back then, together with that new Mask Salesman cutscene skip, that saves over 20 seconds we can save quite some time now.
Not even a bit close to being enough to be worth a new MM TAS, though ;)
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Slowking wrote:
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Well a way to help start on any% would be either finding or making a video of the sword going down zora's river. I heard it was made but various attempts to find on youtube turned fruitless and the the person I heard it from hasn't posted it so, perhaps it's a myth. This video would be very nice to figure which route is faster.
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it's awesome to finally have a cutsceneless encode, but I'd still prefer it to have only one public encode on youtube.
it'd be better to upload it as unlisted, so everybody who has the link to the video can watch it ;)
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wow, all the week this close race and now we both won. there couldn't have been a better result :D
huge thanks to everybody who voted for majora's mask. it's nice to see, that so many people enjoyed the run.
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slowi's right, so stop the discussion right here. we tested this a while ago and aqua escape is clearly superior. it's still debatable if ruto's bottle might be quicker, which probably isn't the case.
so everything left to test is whether sword or deku stick is faster. in order to test this you'd have to do 2 complete TASes of the whole child section, which is the reason why I haven't and probably won't ever time it.
Without a new route for the adult section there won't be a new any% TAS. At least not by me.
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this has been known already. Console speedrunners simply never use it due to it being pretty hard to pull off. There has never been made a TAS, that had to go to the observatory, so TASers used it neither in the past.
I hope you keep searching, though ;)
would be cool to see some new tricks for any%.
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Phantom Ganon can only be killed with the Hookshot. This was just a theory we had back then and never tested it. It doesn't work.
Hookshot is unskipable. And about Megaton Hammer: All it can do is skip the Hover Boots. It can't be used in ToT, so it doesn't even allow you to skip the Prelude of Light cutscene (which would require Hover Boots any way). Megaton Hammer is actually slower than getting Hover Boots, so what's the point?
Ringrush is right, Light Arrow B is definitely not quicker. The Odd Mushroom cutscene skip adds some huge detours and skipping the Minuet also takes a while due to it causing some problems like turning Odd Mushroom to Cojiro again or giving you stick on the B button again.
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this fucking egg destroyes everything <_<
That trick to manipulate the ingame timer using Ganon's Castle doesn't fix our problem, you can only ride at daytime. so we'd have to visit the ranch twice before we can go to ganon's castle to set the ingame timer to 0:00:00. from there it still takes like a minute for it to become daytime.
Neither has Light Arrow B any chance to be quicker at the moment. Hookshot (Beat Phantom Ganon) and Hover Boots (Get to Ganon's Castle) are still requiered, without Deku Stick on B (Mupen freezes) we have to open Door of Time and watch the Prelude of Light cutscene. This takes all way too much time.
My last hope is getting Odd Mushroom as child, and turning it into cojiro again.
This would cut off 6:40 of Bloob's TAS, but the question remains: Can all that other stuff really be done in 6:40?
- Getting Bombchus from the well(requiered to reach the Mushroom chest) takes 2:50. We'd also get Deku shield and Hylian Shield from 2 chests in the well. This would skip collecting some rupees and buying the Hylian Shield, so alltogether, getting bombchu costs only 2:20.
- Getting the Odd Mushroom takes around 2:05. No idea how long it takes to travel back to the market, maybe 1:10. We should try to come up with a faster way for that.
This leaves us with 1:05 to get Bottle on B. To be honest, due to having to visit the ranch twice, getting the bottle with the new takes way longer than that. I might be able to do it in 2 minutes, but then we'd still have to find a 1 minute timesaver somewhere, which seems pretty unlikely.
For now Bloob's adult route should still be quicker. Skipping the sword might save a few seconds in the child section, but really only a few ;)
Let's just hope we can come up with some magical new trick that solves all our problems. Especially the Light Arrow B route needs such a magical discovery.
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Slowking wrote:
I thought about it a little and sadly I don't see this saving more than ~30s.
True you do skip ever going to the fishing pond and lon lon ranch is closer, but there is a limiting factor, which is the cucco egg.
It needs to be hatched before you get back to Kakariko.
Thus you'll have to wait a little in front of Kakaiko with this route.
Now the egg hatched before Bloob made it to Kakariko in his TAS, so there is some time savings. On the other hand you have to talk to Ingo to ride the horses and he has quite a bit of text.
So this might even save less than 30s.
It certainly would be advisable to use the japanese version if this route is used...
Edit: This might actually be slower. Not having a sword will slow you down as a kid quite a bit and going to the shop eats the time not getting the sword saves.
Edit2: Yeah this is slower. From the time the egg hatches bloob needs 16 seconds to Kakariko. Plus 20s in the fishing pond (including scene transition time) that is 36s.
Time doesn't move in the Lon Lon ranch so every second in there counts against hatch time. Accordingly you would have to stay under these 36s for it to be faster. But Ingo has a lot of not skipable text and you have to play the riding game one and a half times. No way that can be done in under 36 seconds.
:(
Slowking, there's a way to fix that. BrianMp16 told me, that going to ganon's castle and watching the intro cutscene of the surrounding area sets the ingame timer to 0:00:00. from there it is just 45 seconds until the egg hatches. I haven't tested this yet, but it should work.
This probably isn't going to save too much time, though.
Getting the sword takes 1:01. Getting a deku stick takes around 37 seconds. There's one problem, though. If we can't make Navi appear early enough in Lost Woods, we'll need another deku stick to execute the Navi-less Forest Escape.
This would requir another 10 rupees, which would probably be obtained by throwing 3 rocks of that stone circle. There might be a better way to get those 10 rupees, though.
The time saved in Zora's River using the sword shouldn't be that much, maybe 4 seconds. On the way from the Zora's River entrance to Kakariko we have to do a Water Jumpslash slide in order to skip the owl or else we lose too much time there. This probably forces us to get a 2nd Deku Stick.
From Kakariko to the Market the Sword can save another bit off time, but due to not having a Deku Stick you'd have to do a different way to skip the owl and in the end the time saved by doing the Water Slide there is probably only around 4 seconds compared to the new swordless route.
So 24 seconds saves buying one Deku Stick over obtaining the Kokiri Sword.
As we probably have to get another Deku Stick we lose something like 10 seconds there. Another 5 are lost in Zora's River and 4 on the way to the Market.
Alltogether skipping the sword should be quicker just be a few seconds. It all depends on how fast the new Deku Stick B route for Adult Link is. A lot of testing has to be made. Due to Ingo talking a lot, this might only be quicker on the japanese version.
Slowking wrote:
I actually do have an idea how to fix this. But it's really out there.
1. Get well chus as a child. (take the shield in botw) You are in Kakariko anyway. This takes ~2:30
2. Get bottle (collect the rest of the cuccos). On the way out collect bugs.
3. Go to Gerudo Fortress, get odd mushroom.
4. Save warp, then do swordless dot skip
5. As you have cojiro you can now go directly to lon lon, get bottle B and RBA it. Getting pocket egg and pocket cucco is skipped.
This sounds like it would be a lot slower, but it might actually work. Not totally sure, tbh.
The chus should speed you up in quite a few places, so that is also to be considered...
Things to consider here:
From exiting castle town to getting cojiro bloob takes about 6 minutes.
The well takes about 2:30.
About all the rest I'm very uncertain.
There's probably no chance for this to be quicker, although bloob takes 6:40 minutes and not 6 minutes. the thing is, after lon lon ranch you are close to the lost woods, so leaving kakariko after cojiro has to be considered as well. No idea, where we would get bombs, though.
Other than that getting stick on B probabky takes another 2:30 and I doubt going to the Odd Mushroom chest and back to the market takes only 2:40. This might work, if we combine it with the Light Arrow B route, though.
What were the problems about the Light Arrow B route again? We can open the DoT using the Song of Time (Odd Potion RBA) and Hover Boots can be obtained after getting bombchus. maybe we should have a look at that route again.
@Kuwaga
Your joke was fine, why did you delete it? :(
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We did some further research on the zelda irc and using a trick Acryte came up a while ago, we can get Deku Stick on B without visiting the Fishing Pond.
This is done by riding a horse at Lon Lon Ranch. If you've never equipped a sword before, you are swordless afterwards for some reason.
This should save even more time of Bloob's TAS ;)
