Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
I tried this in other places (ex. BBLS) and it didn't work due to limited space. I was skeptical to try this in JMNN, but a quick run-through was actually quite easy. It made a difference of about four seconds. I'll redo it and hex it together. Thanks!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Hello again. I've taken Truncated good advice and redid the last three levels of the Egyptian World saving about 7.2 seconds. I also redid the first three levels and hex-edited (boy was that fun) into the new movie. This puts the total improvement time at 169.1 seconds! Check it out:
http://www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2-WIP3.zip
Truncated was right about SNDS. Having all three together saved about 4.5 seconds. He was also right about TMPL in two places:
1. At the end of the moving elevator, I left Erik there to take the key from Olaf, since Erik is faster.
2. When getting the blue key, I started on the right side and ended on the right side saving about 1.8 seconds. Hooray!
BIG IMPROVEMENT: I just fixed a mistake (the one suggested by nifboy). Now I no longer crash at the end of JMNN and saved 8.7 seconds!
Totally off topic, but I had a dream that holding up+down and left+right would cause the vikings to fly. Too bad when I tried it after I woke up, all Erik did was look at me like I was an idiot :(
This was my first time hex-editing, so if it desynchs for you, let me know. (remember the rom is "(U) [!]")
Anyway, if no great discovery is made, I think I'll move on. So until then!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Truncated wrote:
At 11:29 you take two vikings down the ladder and leave the third (Olaf) above, instead of doing the three-player thing and switch while they are falling. I realise this is probably because you want Erik to hit the wall as soon as possible below, right? But it means Olaf will be doing nothing for a good while, and while he's falling down essentially no input at all is given, instead of controlling two characters, and longer scrolling time afterwards. Did you try both ways?
If I would have switched earlier, I would have to prolong the wall-hit and wait for the blocks to evaporate anyway. Notice how Baloeg is almost there when the final block evaporates.
Truncated wrote:
11:49 - when jumping here it looks like you're a bit over the corner, so you could have jumped earlier. Erik's hitbox might be irregular though.
Jumping at that extreme angle (jumping to the left while moving up) will cause a delay, even though it doesn't look like it.
Truncated wrote:
At 13:20 you run past the ladder and fall down. Shouldn't either grabbing the ladder + fall, or jumping down the hole be faster?
No. If I grabbed on the ladder, there would have been a delay (in other words, it's not like megaman). If I would have jumped, I would have gained too much velocity falling down and ended up a lot farther down the ladder.
Truncated wrote:
The end of the level at 13:26. Can you land on the shield with Erik while still giving away the key, and then carry him towards the goal and dropping him off by lowering the shield with Olaf? (A long shot, I realise you've tried almost everything here. At other times it looks like you have to walk to stay on the shield, if so this probably wouldn't work.)
Erik would have just slid off if I moved.
Truncated wrote:
At the level SNDS (starts 13:31) you run to the goal with Erik and then switch to move Olaf and Baleog. This means a lot of time is lost as the screen scrolls. Is it perhaps faster to run about a screens worth and switching back and forth between the teams, to minimize the time when noone is moving?
I thought about this. I figured it would have conflicted too much with what Baelog and Olaf were doing, but I'll try it out.
Truncated wrote:
At the level TMPL (starts 14:03) do you really need the kill-everybody weapon for the blue-key room, or is it just for easiness? Can't you avoid the enemies here like usual? Getting it takes a few seconds.
I need the Omega because OLaf can't get past the mummys without it (Mummys don't hit with one point of damage, they'll kill you with one shot.) I tried this out when I was making my first version and it wasted too much time because I needed to get Baleog down there to get Olaf out.
Truncated wrote:
At 14:41, It looks like you can switch from Erik sooner - or will he land in the spikes then? And why don't you jump over the spikes instead of falling?
He will land on the spikes. If I jumped over, I would crash, which would seem awkward. Regardless, I'd still have to wait for the elevator.
Truncated wrote:
At the elevator shortly after that, can you jump with Erik from the shield to disembart earlier? Again it looks like Erik is a good bit above the corner.
Erik cannot stay with the elevator's speed (He can't even get up onto Olaf's shield at that speed).
Truncated wrote:
Crazy idea for elevator at 15:49: can you leave Erik behind to take the key from Olaf, and run before him to start the elevator earlier? Olaf can float down to steer the elevator. Baleog might arrive late, but you don't need him to go down anyway, he can get on when the elevator goes up later.
Hmm. Seems valid. I'll see about this.
Truncated wrote:
After taking the blue key at 15:57, why don't you go back the same way you came? (Alternatively, why didn't you go up on the left side the first time?)
I tested this one. The route you're talking about invloves slowing, turning around and doing the same when falling from the ladders. The route in the movie saved 15 frames. I didn't go up the left side because it's too far away. Although, the inverse of the route I took (starting on the left side and ending on the right side) would probably not be any different timewise. Despite it, I'll test it anyway.
I appreciate the deep analysis you're giving my movie. I emplore you to continue to do so.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
No. The only way to avoid the crashing animation is to not crash. :P
I even tried to outstretch Olaf to create as much "floor" as I could to avoid the crashing, but to no avail.
EDIT: I jumped from every part of the ladder and either Erik would come up short or crash (and this is using Olaf's shield too)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Hello once again. I've just finished the Egyptian world with an improvement of 65.1 seconds putting the grand total at 148.6! This improvement mostly comes from more involved movements and basically moving everyone as much as possible. Here it is:
http://www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2-WIP2.zip
In JMNN, I chose for Erik to take the same path as Olaf and Baleog ( the shield-riding route) but unfortunately, I was not able to use the key at the last second to avoid crashing into the ground. No matter where I jumped from on the ladder, I just couldn't get far enough. But using this path saved me 9.3 seconds nonetheless.
The biggest improvement of one level came from TMPL, where the quick movements and switching helped amazingly tearing 20.9 seconds off the published version.
If you don't like the little "dit" sound every time I switch a character, this world's your nightmare. ;)
As always I accept any questions or suggestions that's concerning you.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Hello again. I've taken Truncated and Nifboys' suggestions, along with a few adjustments, and improved the old WIP by a noticable margin - 21. 3 seconds. That puts the time saved compared to the published movie by 83.5 seconds! I thank Nifboy again for discovering the shortcut in TRSS that saved 8.3 seconds!(god I feel stupid). Here it is:
http://www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2-WIP2.zip
Along with the shortcut in TRSS, I took Truncated advice and timed each ending as exact as I could. Some levels, TR33 for example, were complicated due to the lizard being there. Also, more "3-player" instances were implemented.
LLMO - Changed route for Olaf, ended up saving 3 seconds.
FLOT - Nothing particular, just better optimized.
TRSS - Shield-riding shortcut rendering the bridge useless.
PRHS - A little more involved near the end.
CVRN - More entertaining, nothing particular.
BBLS - Changed route for Erik, optimization of beginning.
TR33 - Changed the ending a little.
VLCN - Better handling of the characters near the end.
That's all I can think of now. If anyone thinks of any improvements I have failed to see, I'd appreciate it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Good job on level 5, that level pisses me off.
My only gripe with the movie is level 4. No offense, but my version was more entertaining. I know you probably didn't want it to look like it was a clone, but you could have been more aesthetic (and I don't mean wobbling).
Other than that, it looks like you've gain complete power and control over the physics of this game. Good luck for the future levels.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
That's incredible! I can't believe I never knew about that. Not only can Olaf go across, but with using the shield-riding trick will allow both to go across, thus rendering the bridge useless. I am in your debt for discovering this. Thanks a lot!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Okay, now I understand what you mean. I thought you meant major gaps like the ones in the current movie.
Hmm.. this is troubling. I'll see what I can do about timing these instances just right. Thanks for catching that.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Truncated wrote:
A lot of times the red-haired runner-jumper whatshisname reaches the goal before the others. When the two others move at the same time after that, but one is ahead of the other, you should stop before the goal with whatshisname, switch early, start running with the others, and when one of them is at the goal switch to move the lag-behind and whatshisname.
I can understand what you mean, if you're talking about the current movie, which I couldn't find any examples of this in my WIP, which I had kept that in mind. Maybe if you were more specific, I could understand better. By the way, the runner-jumper's name is Erik.
Truncated wrote:
There was one level where whatshisname started riding an elevator at the start of the level, and the others stood still. Couldn't they move meanwhile? At least one of them, if not both, I mean.
If you're referring to the current movie, I found only two examples you referred to, BTRY & V8TR. These two will be optimized. If there are others, please tell me. If you're talking about trivial activity, I'm trying to cut down on the amount of wobbling in this movie, or was it about something else?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Hello to anyone who's following.
I've just finished Prehistoria with an improvement of 47.7 (!) seconds putting the total improvement time at 62.6 seconds. Here it is. Have a look:
www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2.zip
As I suspected using the sheild-riding trick saved a significant amount of time - 15 seconds, almost twice as much as I'd anticipated. Also, I created a few more spots to use the "third player" element and used each character as much as possible without delaying the other's necessary movements. Well, if no one has any suggestions, it's off to Egypt again...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Are you able to fly forever? Or is it only available to you in some levels? It looked to me that flying is much faster than just plain running.
Other than that, this movie is very good. Very entertaining and well-played.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
Hmm..Gens has always worked fine with me. Gens 9c has a tendency to having frames stick which becomes annoying so I am using Gens 9a again. But I've never had a desynch...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
I've decided to do an improved version because I've been unsatisfied with the current movie for the past couple monthes now. I've done the first world and have so far improved it by about 13 seconds (I haven't verified exactly how much, but somewhere around there). Here is a preview:
http://www.geocities.com/eonouzo/Ouzo-LostVikingsv2.zip - (If it desynches make sure to have both joypads set as 6 buttons.)
I know some more places that can be improved, most notably the beginning of BBLS can be done faster by using the shield-riding trick. If anyone has any suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated.
EDIT: First world faster by 895 frames (about 14.9 seconds)
