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Hmm, that would be a bad reason if you ask me... "Just liking it". It leaves nothing to discuss.
Anyway, my point is, if you do know the release info for sure, why would you prefer NTSC?
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And a good reason is not the general rule that we're discussing the whole time? So if a game is obviously created in Europe (and not even released in Japan - even though the game would run fine on a Japanese system, just with different speed), it should be run on a 50Hz machine?
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feos wrote:
Doesn't sound like a clear cut to me, dunno if that is even possible here.
Indeed, it's not always 100% clear.
What I don't have doubts on is that we should use emulator settings and dependencies that match the emulated game.
But the point is that you can't always easily match it.
But if some release only works on EU machines, we should allow it if it uses a PAL machine and looks like a PAL release. And those should be obsoleted by NTSC runs when such are done.
There will be hardly anything that only works on EU machines and there's only one title I know that works on only JP machines. There are no such things as "PAL releases" or "NTSC releases" (although technically, as the PAL with 50Hz gives more computing time per interrupt, it is possible to make something that only works on 50Hz. But the only thing I remember that does that is some cutting edge demos.)
Why should 50Hz runs be obsoleted by 60Hz runs?
Figuring out originality is hard and is based on assumptions, so the only way to make it safe is to just prefer NTSC unless there's a compelling reason not to.
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Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
In openMSX you emulate a specific MSX machine. The goal of the emulator is to be as closely as possible to that original specific MSX machine. So, I don't see your point here...
The same MSX machine the player back in 1984 would have used to play a game in question?
Who can tell? As the game could have been played on any MSX in 1984...
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
Not related to region, but related to BIOS or other differences between the different MSX models (e.g. memory layout). But I don't know examples of this, other than games outright crashing. You never really know which exact model the game was developed on.
The fact that such cases exist show that concern for potential audience claiming illegitimacy of a particular combination is warranted.
I am still very interested to see a first example of this. So far: none.
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
The question is, since the moment openMSX was approved: what do you want to do with all these different models? It is theoretically possible to make a faster TAS on a different MSX model.
That's why I then proposed to use a single standard machine, so runs can be compared (the Panasonic FS-A1WSX was then the proposal).
If there can be a definitive machine to be considered for games made to be sold in particular areas, I'm not against enforcing those.
It's quite an arbitrary choice but yes, it's pretty easy to link machines to areas, as the area is in the machine itself. It's harder to tell which machine should be used for which game though... See further on.
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
All in all, I still think that Zupapa's submission should not have been rejected. I see no argument whatsoever that would justify that. The above discussion only makes it clearer to me, as the rule that was referred to when it was rejected was not intended for this case, I think.
I don't know enough about that sub at the moment, but based on our discussion, if your depiction of the situation is accurate, then I agree.
I see it like this. UK folks created a game in 1984 on their UK 50Hz hardware. A company in Japan released the game also in Japan, on cartridge format. Playing the game on a 50Hz machine is like playing it how the developers would have played it. It's just that the format chosen was the ROM and not the cassette tape. But that is a good choice, because it's a quick load.
The ROM game on a 50Hz machine is the best combination to play this game. The fact that the ROM was only released in Japan is irrelevant: the game itsel was released everywhere and originally developed on a 50Hz machine. Playing it on a JP machine would be less logical than 50Hz if you ask me.
feos wrote:
As I mentioned, my biggest issue is, do we have some authoritative source of info about every MSX game release where we could check what we're looking at? The lack of such resource caused c64 to become an exception from the PAL/NTSC rules.
If we can know what region a game is designed for, it's fine, we just check. What if we can't know that?
You can definitely not very obvious.
Some cases:
- a game is in Japanese language only. Easy: use JP region
- a game in English and Japanese (the Konami games). Obviously meant to run on both JP and non-JP regions. So what do you do? Look at the country of the manufacturer? Konami JP created it, so prefer a JP machine (giving JP texts)?
- a European game that switches the MSX2 to 60Hz. Run on a European MSX2? Or a Japanese MSX2? Does it even matter?
- like Blagger: a UK game released on cartridge for the Japanese market... I'd say: run the ROM (for convenience) on a EU MSX (for most authenticity)
- the reverse also exists in many ways: a Japanese ROM game released in Europe on cassette... I'd say: prefer the original JP ROM.
More examples?
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Nach wrote:
The point isn't whether the crucial differences exist, the point is whether we can say with certainty there are no crucial differences with how the TASer is TASing the game compared to using an original console.
In openMSX you emulate a specific MSX machine. The goal of the emulator is to be as closely as possible to that original specific MSX machine. So, I don't see your point here...
Quibus wrote:
The speculation is also what we want to avoid with our publications. We want to ensure they are as legitimate as they can be.
So, my point for MSX is: a run on any officially released MSX computer is always as legitimate as it can get.
Quibus wrote:
I am worried about subtle platform differences that may delegitimize a submission which uses a configuration where there's a degree of chance was not anticipated by the creators of the software in question.
This is always possible. Not related to region, but related to BIOS or other differences between the different MSX models (e.g. memory layout). But I don't know examples of this, other than games outright crashing. You never really know which exact model the game was developed on.
The question is, since the moment openMSX was approved: what do you want to do with all these different models? It is theoretically possible to make a faster TAS on a different MSX model.
That's why I then proposed to use a single standard machine, so runs can be compared (the Panasonic FS-A1WSX was then the proposal).
I think we need a rule something like this: if you want to obsolete/improve a run that already exists you MUST use the same MSX model with the same BIOS. Exception could be that the gameplay is obviously better (clearly no model differences are exploited).
HOWEVER, I am just told on IRC that such a rule isn't necessary and that the existing rules are perfectly capable of handling MSX, without having to talk about different MSX models that exist. So, that's fine then! :)
All in all, I still think that Zupapa's submission should not have been rejected. I see no argument whatsoever that would justify that. The above discussion only makes it clearer to me, as the rule that was referred to when it was rejected was not intended for this case, I think.
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Nach wrote:
It is important to note though, that even if there is broad compatibility, it doesn't mean something intended for one area and created for what was popular in one area was intended in anyway for another area, especially if crucial differences are then involved.
I don't know any examples of such crucial differences. Do you?
Nach wrote:
Yes, but it does indicate that not necessarily every game was intended for everywhere. It could be they added the check because previous games they made lacked it, and they didn't like seeing Japanese designed edition being sold elsewhere by third parties. And if such a concern existed with one company, it could apply to others as well, even if they didn't do anything about it.
All their following games didn't have this check either... but OK, we're speculating about concerns of companies here. Getting off-topic, right?
Quibus wrote:
The fact that they created a different release for Japan shows that they didn't intend their original release to be used in Japan.
No, I don't agree. As I said in my previous post, the motivation to create a ROM release for Japan was that most MSX software in Japan was released on ROM. It has nothing to do with the intension of the original release.
Except for the format, they also put Japanese texts on the box. Pretty good idea for the Japanese market, right? But the game itself is just the same.
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
"Intended" is hard to determine with this game. All I can say is that the original developers (being from the UK) probably developed it on a PAL machine. And as such it makes it the most obvious to run it on a PAL machine, as was done by Zupapa.
This I think we can agree on. It's further bolstered by the fact that they made something specific for Japan, which may mean that the version in question was not primarily intended for NTSC (even though it does not preclude it).
The reason they made a version for Japan has nothing to do with NTSC vs PAL. That should be clear by now. It only has to do with packaging and the preferred format (ROM) for that market. This is proven by the fact that the game is just the same and the original release also runs fine on Japanese MSX computers. In exactly the same way as the ROM does.
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Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
The whole point of MSX is that all software runs on all MSX models (with the proper specs like having enough RAM).
What is the proof for this determination?
It's the whole idea of the MSX standard. Write software for the standard, and it will run on any other computer that also adheres to the standard, no matter the brand. The standard contains information about regions and such, but there is no standard per region.
Please refer to http://map.grauw.nl/resources/system/msxtech.pdf This is the MSX Technical Databook, (part of) the official spec of the original MSX standard.
Of course it is technically possible to write software that does not run on all models, but that was not the intention of the MSX standard.
Nach wrote:
Doesn't this other point outright debunk it?
Quibus wrote:
First of all, there is no region protection at all, except for one single game (Metal Gear JP contains explicit code to check for a JP MSX model).
It's one single game. A very clear exception. For some reason they didn't want Metal Gear JP to be run on non-JP machines. (Don't ask me why.) But this is not applicable to any other game as far as I know. Even the Metal Gear release with English texts works fine on Japanese machines. It doesn't contain that check at all.
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
In the case of Zupapa's Blagger it's even more interesting. The game was written in the UK, where we have PAL machines. So most likely, the game was developed on a PAL machine. However, the game runs fine on machines of other regions, like a Japanese MSX machine.
But was it actually intended to be ran on a Japanese MSX machine?
Who knows? In practice, I think they expected it to run only on Japanese MSX machines, as they made Japanese packaging and such and probably only sold it in Japan. But the game will run just perfectly on any MSX machine. In fact, if you run it on a 50Hz machine, the game runs exactly as intended (or better put: expected) by the original authors.
Remember, the game wasn't written by Microcabin. They just released it on cartridge in Japan for the Japanese market. Same game, different release.
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
Originally, Blagger was released on cassette tape. Microcabin made a release in Japan of the game on ROM cartridge. Same game, same game code (they did alter a few texts here and there and so, but there is no technical reason they had to change the game code), different medium. The advantage of this ROM is of course that it loads instantly. A lot nicer to watch than the full cassette getting loaded (which may take quite a while).
Perhaps this indicates that the cassette was never intended for Japan?
The cassette runs fine in Japan. And even on Japanese MSX computers. It just runs a bit faster, the machines having the 60Hz interrupt frequency. The same goes for the ROM. It's just the same program and runs the same as the cassette. Just loads a bit quicker.
In Europe, almost all MSX software was released on cassette. In Japan, most MSX software was released on ROM cartridge. I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure that this was the reason they put it on ROM cartridge for the Japanese market. It was just what they were used to.
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
However, that rule says: play region X games on hardware of region X. I understand this is to prevent abuse of glitches due to region differences. On MSX, this abuse is very unlikely. At least I have never seen or heard of bugs that appear due to different regions (other than wrong characters being displayed on screen for instance).
It's not just about abuse of glitches. It's about possibly running the game in a way it was not necessarily intended to run. We want our TASs ran in the most legitimate way possible. That means excluding running games on platforms they were not intended for.
"Intended" is hard to determine with this game. All I can say is that the original developers (being from the UK) probably developed it on a PAL machine. And as such it makes it the most obvious to run it on a PAL machine, as was done by Zupapa.
Nach wrote:
Quibus wrote:
Some games do behave different on different region machines. A couple of Konami games show Japanese texts and title graphics on Japanese machines and English ones on non-Japanese machines. But it doesn't affect the actual game play.
At least this indicates that those games were intended for those distinct MSX machines.
Following this reasoning, it indicates that these games were intended for "Japanese machines" and "non-Japanese machines".... right? :)
I think it's more that they thought it was cheaper to have a single ROM for all markets.
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Zupapa made an interesting choice with Blagger. And I fully understand his choice too.
The region of an MSX is usually quite clear. But not always 100%.
The region of an MSX game is not always so clear. First of all, there is no region protection at all, except for one single game (Metal Gear JP contains explicit code to check for a JP MSX model).
The whole point of MSX is that all software runs on all MSX models (with the proper specs like having enough RAM).
That doesn't mean a TAS will sync from one machine to the other, though. The implementation of BIOS routines may have slightly diferent timing, there may be disk drives connected that initialize first and most of all, some MSX'es run at 50Hz interrupt (PAL machines) and some at 60 Hz (NTSC and PAL-M machines).
And for MSX2 games and up, the video chip has a register in which you can set it to output PAL or NTSC (this means switch between 50 and 60Hz interrupt in practice). Some games write it to force a certain interrupt frequency.
As most (practically all?) MSX games run on the interrupt, the game speed will depend on the interrupt frequency.
In the case of Zupapa's Blagger it's even more interesting. The game was written in the UK, where we have PAL machines. So most likely, the game was developed on a PAL machine. However, the game runs fine on machines of other regions, like a Japanese MSX machine.
Originally, Blagger was released on cassette tape. Microcabin made a release in Japan of the game on ROM cartridge. Same game, same game code (they did alter a few texts here and there and so, but there is no technical reason they had to change the game code), different medium. The advantage of this ROM is of course that it loads instantly. A lot nicer to watch than the full cassette getting loaded (which may take quite a while).
Zupapa used the ROM version (I think for the reason I mentioned) but decided to TAS the game on a EU machine. This is a good choice, as will be clear now: the game was actually developed on such machines.
However, that rule says: play region X games on hardware of region X. I understand this is to prevent abuse of glitches due to region differences. On MSX, this abuse is very unlikely. At least I have never seen or heard of bugs that appear due to different regions (other than wrong characters being displayed on screen for instance).
Some games do behave different on different region machines. A couple of Konami games show Japanese texts and title graphics on Japanese machines and English ones on non-Japanese machines. But it doesn't affect the actual game play.
Technically, the Blagger run of Zuapapa could most likely sync on the cassette version of the game if the events of the replay would be replayed at the right offset.
As such, I find it unfair that his Blagger run is rejected. A disrespect for his work.
That's my 2 cents. I hope the objective information here helps the discussion though :) If you have any questions, please ask and I'll do my best to answer them.
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The original game was released on cassette by Alligata for the European market. I think that Microcabin released the game in Japan on ROM, without changing much (other than these credits).
In other words: the game is most originally played on a European MSX. I.e. it was created for 50Hz.
Still, it's a grey area. You can also argue that this particular ROM release was exclusively meant for the Japanese market and should thus have been played on the Japanese machine.
The Japanese text is "Microcabin" with its logo.
The alternative is loading the game from cassette. Doesn't really make the TAS more entertaning as the loading takes a while...
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Indeed, I did a walkthough 7 years ago and there it took me about 17 minutes...! Quite an improvement :)
Thanks for this great MSX submission, which I was hoping for someone would do for quite a long time...!
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Also, I wonder what Conan game Kurabupengin meant, because there is none for MSX... The Hercules game is there, but it's a bad ZX Spectrum port. Not something I would recommend.
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Yes, it was very expensive and the review also mentions that as one of the reasons why the conclusion is "Highly NOT recommended!!".
It was a direct import from Japan and these were always quite expensive in those days. But for that money you could buy much better new Japan imports.
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I hope you'll do more MSX runs in the future. This is not the most interesting MSX game to TAS, I think, but I found it entertaining, still. It helps that it's not too long :) Too bad they couldn't bother to make a decent ending to the game.
I wondered why the game is 32kB... but it appears to have a complete level editor included and all graphics are uncompressed. Ah well. It's just a very early MSX game.
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Someone should try to TAS the MSX2 game "Psycho World", which is basically the same game concept, but the port has quite different levels and the music has been worked out a lot better too... (And IMHO the graphics are also better.)
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I think it's more common to use the original game (which will work on the Panasonic)... usually translations are not allowed or at least not recommended! (Haven't checked the rules, please do...)
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If necessary: I still have the video here which I uploaded to YouTube with the submission, which was recorded with openMSX (and thus lossless). It's 13MB and I could easily send it via IRC.
feos: if there's something we can do to improve openMSX to comfort you, let us know :P