Posts for Ramzi

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Sleepz, 5 hours of homework left. Sorry buddy, can't today.
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Okay, I quickly looked it over. I was wondering how my route was only 6 seconds faster than Michael's. It seems that warping, then going to 2, then 8, is faster than walking to 8, then 2. So I've modified my 341658279 route and have come up with 341652879. This route is a hybrid of the best ideas from a bunch of previous routes. I kinda like that. Time this one. It should be significantly faster than 6 seconds. I'm thinking maybe 20 seconds faster. But I'm crazy and stupid, so time it to make sure.
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Are you sure? I mean, it seems likely... but... 6 whole seconds? There are only 4 blue wizrobes you have to fight in level 6. Bombs kill them also. I think they'd be easier/faster than blue darknuts because there isn't much lag, and you can hit them from any side. Upon further inspection, the orange like-likes will probably take too long.
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I guess it's a good thing we're talking in the forum, this way Michael can catch up on everything we discussed. But it is kind of a pain. Do you have AIM, or something?
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I think Michael said he's not gonna be able to get on tomorrow. So it's just you and me for a while. Michael proposed 341582769 before we started with the bracelet idea. If you do 3415, doing 8 then 2 is definitely faster than 2 than 8. Still, it's moot to even consider, because the bracelet routes are faster. The walk from 1 to 5 is shortened by warping from 6 to 5. And the walk from 1 to 6 is about the same length as the walk from 7 to 6, so you don't lose anything there. Plus, because you're doing 6 before 5, you don't have to pick up an overworld heart. Simply stated, getting the bracelet cuts the walk to 5 down, and that saves a lot of time. Really, 341658279 is making a lot of sense to me right now...
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Right. You used Michael's bracelet route. Time my bracelet route. Which other routes are you considering? Post them, because maybe they'll be easy to find flawed. Do my bracelet route first, because it's what seems to be shortest to me right now. If you need more details, I'll post some, but by now things should be obvious. Reread my post with the route explained in it.
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Haha, when I checked the forum I say Genisto's name as the last post in this thread and thought to myself, "*gasp* Genisto speaks!"
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There were two routes posted getting the bracelet. Michael's, and mine. Which one did you use? I think mine may be faster, but time it to make sure. 28:01? Damn. The other night when I said "sub-27," I meant "sub-28." I was thinking, "somewhere in the 27th minute." It was 2 a.m., and you ain't quite right at 2 a.m. Let's hope we can get it to be sub-28. You only took account for the overworld time. Remember that level 1 and 3 you use Up+A. He had the magical key, though, so that saved time. Maybe your extra bomb use could make up for it. Hmm, but he had the magical sword for level 9. This is going to be close. Cross your fingers and hope we missed something obvious for a better route, as we always do.
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That would be an even longer detour than going up by the fairy. It's no matter, now, anyway, since Michael and I just posted two new faster routes that get the arrows by level 6.
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lol. I posted mine 5 seconds after you, Sleepz.
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1 to 5 is only faster than 1 to 2 if you get the arrows. Maybe I'm missing something totally obvious, but... Level 5, whistle Up+A Arrows Level 8 Where do you get the arrows? By the shop next to the fairy? That's a two screen detour. Just pitching ideas. How about 341658279? Here are the pros and cons of that. Pros: -The arrows are on path. That saves two screens from your route. -The walk from 6 to 5 is shorter than the walk from 1 to 5 by two screens. -You do not have to pick up any overworld hearts for the white sword. Cons: -You have to do level 6 with the wooden sword. -You have to wait for the guy's text to load. -You have to make a 1 screen detour to get the white sword before level 5. It's kinda close. I'd say that the time it takes getting the overworld heart, and the time it takes to warp are about the same, since you have to wait for text to load. So going to level 6 is about 3 screens shorter, but you have to do it with the first sword. The question is which is greater, the time saved by not walking those 3 screens, or the time lost by not doing level 6 with the white sword. I think the 3 screens is a greater time saver. I haven't thought out the money too well, though. *****I was looking at the thread for info and I see that you just updated with a new route. It's similar, but different than this one nonetheless.
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Sleepz, about the key, go with Michael on this one. It's 2:21 AM right now, and I can't check if it'll save time. A screenchange, though, is a long time, and I don't remember any other key room that is worth that much time. The only time I can think of to get an off-path key is in Level 1, by going right and getting it from a skeleton, because the room below the boss in Level 8 is obviously way longer. Obviously the white sword is too big of a detour for level 5 alone, but level 5, and all the levels that follow it, the white sword makes up for. Michael, great contributions. I didn't check this thread in a few hours, and so much was discussed. Call me crazy but a sub-27 seems possible. Am I alone on this?
Michael Fried wrote:
The white sword is 4 screens out of the way and takes about 11 seconds to get, so that's about a 31 second detour, and it would be used for 5 levels. Having the white sword instead of the first sword would save about 5 seconds for of the 4 darknut rooms, so that's 20 seconds saved, and then add in all the fighting rooms in level 9, and I think it's safe to say that's more than 30 seconds saved. ... My conclusion is that you should get the white sword and not the magical sword in a perfect speed run.
Seems to make a lot of sense. And I am *this* close to agreeing with you. Those times are looking kind of close, though. Considering how quickly he's doing the darknut rooms because of bombs, not the sword, is it fair to say that it's 5 seconds in each room? Level 9 may win me over, but I'd really love to see some kind of numbers for how long it'll take to kill the Patras, and Ganon, etc. Say the times break even, or even that it is faster with the white sword... If you don't get any overworld heart pieces, that'll save time also. What's it, 10 seconds load? Also, you don't have to walk back to get the heart piece after beating the boss. And what about my other route? (I'm thinking of throwing it away merely because of having to wait for the guy's text.) Sleepz, I know you're anxious. So am I. I'd really love for Michael to be correct, so we can hurry this along and see this sweet vid, but I don't want to rush it and do it incorrectly. Perhaps another day of thinking is all we need. Let's not forget how many times we've been confident, only to discover something new the next day. >> [1 to 5 (including the white sword)] + [start to 2] < [1 to 2] + [2 to 5 (including the white sword) BRILLIANT! (I'll verify tomorrow.)
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Bah! Alright, I'm like, working on the fifth way to explain this. Every way I try it becomes too complicated. Basically, there is a time saved by doing level 5 and level 8 with the white sword. Say these times are the same, because both have two blue darknut rooms. Call the time saved in level 5 X, and since it's the same time in level 8, also X, maybe the total time saved 2X. Call the time to walk to the sword, wait for the text time A. Call the time to walk from the sword back to level 5 time B. Note that A is greater than B, because A also includes the text. To make things easier, say that A is two-thirds, and B is one-third. The total time (three-thirds) is Y. If you get the sword before level 5, you need to ask, "Is A + B greater or less than 2X." If you get the white sword after level 5, you have to ask, "Is A greater or less than 1X." Note that the time saved is cut in half but the detour is not cut in half. 1Y : 2X .66Y : X Jesus, this is so confusing. What this means is, if level 5 and level 8 take the same amount of time, it is impractical to get the white sword after level 5, because you lose half of the possible saved time, but only lose a third of the detour time. So, if you do get the white sword, it would have to be before level 5. I didn't include level 7 in my previous mumbo jumbo, basically, though, you'd ask. "Does the time to walk to the sword, wait for the text, and walk back take more or less time than the time saved by doing levels 5, 7, and 8 with the white sword." This I do not know. Sometimes I feel like getting it would be faster, other times I don't. The best thing to do would be to time each way and find out. Regardless of what decision we come to for the white sword, we have to ask the same question for the magical sword. Does the magical sword save more time in levels 6 and 9 than the detour for it does? (Time saved in comparison to the white sword, if you got it, or the wooden sword, if you didn't.) If the answer to both of these is no, than you don't have to get the heart pieces, and you could take my geometrically shorter route. You only have to add time to get all of the hearts to the magical sword detour if you decide to get only it, or it and the white sword. If you're only gonna get the white sword, you have to add the times to get the hearts needed for the white sword to that detour. (Do you need to get any overworld hearts for the white sword?) Also, if you get the white sword, and not the magical sword, you can also add the time saved in levels 6 and 9 to your total time saved. *cries* this is sooo complicated. I think we may have to go Boco's way, and just test them all to see what's fastest.
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All theoretical. No one's started recording, yet, I don't think.
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Maybe you have a glorified view of my program. Basically, there were 8 factorial (over 40,000) combinations of levels. One of those was 87654321. Now obviously we know that this cannot be done in the game, since you need to beat 3 before 4, and 4 before 5, etc. All my program does finds the position of the numbers, and if it doesn't follow the rule, it deletes the combination. That's how I was left with 672 combinations. As for the program you're describing, I don't have it. It could be coded, yes, but it's probably more complicated than you think. First of all, there's the problem of gathering the data. Manually we have to find the times for completing the levels, and for walking place to place. Once we have all of the times, then we could write a program. The program, in essence, would work the same way our minds do to solve the problem. It'll see if you have the whistle, and then use that time rather than the walking time, etc etc. The trouble comes when you have multiple places to do the same thing. For example, you could burn the bush by level 2 for the meat on the way to level 2, or, on the way to level 8 from level 2. Obviously it's the latter, not only geometrically, but also because of how much money we'd have at the time. If you're not visualizing it yet... There was only 8 factorial combinations of possible level orders. Imagine how many more combos there are for getting the money, the heart pieces, the swords, and the items. Yes, a program could be written that'll test EVERY combination and just report back with the shortest time, but we'd need to know the data of everything, and even then the program would still be a pain to write. With logic we're able to eliminate an amazing amount of the combinations. For example, if you need to go to a store by Level X, you know that there is store A,B, and C near that level, and you could stop at the one that's most on-path to the next place you're going. It's unncessary to even consider store X,Y, and Z on the other side of the overworld because you already know that that long of a detour would waste time. Now imagine that Level X has store A,B,C and so does Level Y, and Level Z. If going to store B from level X is faster than be or C, and going to store A is faster from level Y, and store C is faster from level Z, and you could go to the store at any of these times, which route is faster? Level X --> store B --> next location Level Y --> store A --> next location Level Z --> Store C --> next location Let me make up numbers now. Level X --> store B --> next location (4 screens) Level Y --> store A --> next location (2 screens) Level Z --> Store C --> next location (1 screen) Now we know the time to go to the store is after Level Z. The program would have to every store combination for every level. And in a game as large as Zelda, that would be a bitch and a half to code. Here's why. h is for heart Level X --> store B --> h --> next (7 screens) Level Y --> store A --> h --> next (9 screens) Level Z --> Store C --> h --> next (8 screens) Now all of a sudden the Level X route is faster. I would be for writing the program is the game were larger than it is. If the same game were 100 levels and the overworld was 100 times the size, writing a program would be faster than thinking about it logically. However, you'd still have to come up with all of the rule sets and gather all of the data yourself. I don't think I'm a good enough programmer to do this one. I could barely visualize how to code it. It'll be loops inside of loops inside of loops inside of loops. Gah. We're practically there, already, though. I'm pretty damned certain you have to go 341. There aren't so many combinations after that. The two routes posted before are probably the best two. And if the sword upgrades is fastest, Michael's route is probably the way to go. I think whether or not to get the swords is the last major problem to solve. After someone comes up with that answer, we're set, probably. I say probably because these routes were created by humans, and not by a program that tried every combination. There very well may be a factor or a route we missed, or didn't consider. I doubt it, though, but it is possible. For example, until recently I didn't even consider getting the power bracelet for warping. Then when I did, I found a route geometrically shorter than Michael's. At the time, though, I was damned certain Michael's was the shortest geometrically. You could imagine my surprise when I found my route, but I wouldn't be surprised if any even faster route is found. I'm doubtful it could happen, but it may. I talk too much. I'm glad though that we have more people looking at this and thinking about it though. Maybe you guys will see something we missed. Once this vid is created, it will be amazing though, particularly for us. Folks who don't know the game as well, and don't know how much planning went into this, won't find it as amazing as we would.
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Michael took out the two blue darknut rooms in Level 8 in 7 and 8 seconds with the second sword, and the Japanese guy did them in 5 and 6 seconds with the magical sword. With those numbers, I liberally estimated the rooms to take 12 seconds with the first sword. There are 4 blue darknut rooms total. The most time that could be saved is 28 seconds. ((12 - 5) * 4). The blue darknuts are really where most of the fighting is at. Then there are level bosses. I think doing the game (not counting level 9) with the magical sword sword may be around 45 or 50 seconds faster than the wooden one. Michael told me he timed it at 11 seconds to enter the first room to get the wooden sword and leave. If it's 11 seconds for the heart pieces, and you get 3, that's 33 seconds. Plus the walking time. It probably breaks even. But remember that that is magical sword vs. wooden sword for the whole game. For wooden sword vs. white sword for level 5, I think wooden sword wins. There are two rooms of blue darknuts, and say each room has four seconds saved by using the white sword. 8 seconds? I'm being very lenient. And the level boss. The level is 10 seconds faster with the white sword. That doesn't even make up for the time getting the white sword in the first place. The fighting in the Japanese guy's video was sub-par, so I was extra lenient to the cause of getting the white sword. It just seems like it'll be longer. The same kind of reasoning has to be applied to the rest of the game, or we could just time everything. This really is a huge math problem. I doubt a perfect run of this game will ever be made, unlike Mario 1. Until some formula is devised to defeat the bad guys as quickly as possible, someone will always be able to shave off a few seconds. But I'm not even gonna worry about that. I'm just focusing on the route.
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I hear what you're saying. And I've thought about this before. I could just do all 672 legal routes and find which one is fastest. Or, I could time every level with every sword, and then time the walking from every place to every other place, and then write a computer program that'll compute the times for every route and give me the fastest. You see what I'm saying, here? That's a lot more work than I'd like to do. I'm trying to find the fastest route through thinking and logic, but you know what? It seems that all this thinking is probably taking more time than just doing all of that work. Bah, oh well. So you know, it's impossible to do levels 3 and 4 with the magical sword. So other than those two, feel free to do every level with each sword, and post the timings. One reason why there hasn't been much discussion about the level subtlties is because the difference they make is so small, unlike the overworld routes, which are large. Once we can figure out the best route, then we'll worry about the small stuff. But we are not forgetting them. For example, we have the minimum amount of rooms that need to be entered for all of the levels. This however, is not the fastest way to go. There is an on-path key in the room before the level 8 boss. Getting this key is slower than getting an off-path key in level 1. >> Okay, then we need to redefine the overworld route to get the >> Secrets to Everybody instead of gambling. If you read my post carefully, I did. The problem is, most of the secrets to everybody are like, 10 or 30 rupees. The time-saving ones are the 100 rupee ones, and they're aren't so many of them, or so many of them on the path, anyway. I think I balanced the gambling and the secrets to everybody in the most efficient way possible, at least for his route, anyway.
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Boco, yes the levels themselves are optimized. There are places (if I remember correctly) where two equidistant paths would take you to the same room. (Say, going up then right, or going right then up.) In those cases, I think accounting for enemy lag may be the faster way. For example, in Level 4, Michael went into a room with one of those blue four-headed things, then bombed right. In the Japanese guy's video, he goes to the map room, and bombs up. I think the latter may be faster just because it doesn't have to load that guy and the fireballs. The Level 4 map on GameFAQs is incomplete, by the way. As for the best way to play the game in real life... I'd say it was that Japanese guy's route. It does the easy levels, and gets the magical sword for the hard ones. I have a hunch that this is the route TSA used, though he won't admit it. Playing the blue darknut rooms with a weaker sword is too hard for a human player to do perfectly, but yet we're creating routes that'll do it, because we have godlike emulator powers. Another thing about what could be done in real life.... There's this one rooms where hands crawl out of the wall. Since Michael was able to see where they were going to come from, he was able to kill them before they were even visible. This isn't really fair at all, because a human would never be able to do this, no matter how godlike his reflexes. The secrets to everybody are faster because you can get 100 rupees and only have to wait for the guy's text to load once. Whereas the gambling room you can only get 50, so you'll have to wait twice. Bladegash, I never really mastered the whistle myself. I'm not sure if what you explained works or not. There's a whole system to working the whistle, and I think it includes the direction you're facing, which Triforce pieces you have, and things like that. Sleepz, I don't think that would be faster either. First of all, I have my doubts about even getting the white sword for level 5. This is how picky and stupid I am. Note, though, that I can't validate this, but I think just the detour (walk to the sword place, go in and wait for the guy's text to load, and then walk back) is slower than just fighting the guy's with the first sword. Having said that, I'm not even sure getting any sword upgrade would be faster, but I'm probably wrong. The only place where I could see a better sword would make save a drastic amount of time is Level 9, because that level has more fighting in it that most of the entire game. So if we do want to get the sword upgrades, we want to do them as seemlessly as possible. Now here's where I'm gonna sound like a jerk. 3.Gamble 4.Candle 5.L4 6.Meat To get the candle you need 60 rupees. That means if you get two 5-rupees in Level 3, you only need to gamble once to get it. The meat is 100. Either you'll need to gamble two more times, or you could hold out. When you're getting the south heart container, you could go up, burn a bush, and get a 100 secret to everybody. Then, you could get the meat on your way to level 8 (by walking down from level 2 and burning a bush.) Since I don't expect you to get two 5-rupees in Level 3, and since you also need another 80 rupees for the arrows, gambling a few more times would be alright, but just buy the meat later. 11.L2 12.Rock Heart Container 13.White Sword 14.L5 If you're going to go left to get the heart container, you're gonna have to go right again. I'm sure you knew that, but just pointing it out. Also, to get the White Sword before level 5, you'll have to walk there and back. As I've mentioned, I'm not too fond of getting the white sword, but if you want to, you could get it after doing level 5, that way you could whistle wherever you want after getting it, and you can skip the walk back from the sword to level 5. Granted, you won't have it for the darknuts, but blah blah blah. The whole route seems very good to me, though. I was impressed. The only part of it I *really* had a problem with was: 15.Whistle to L3 16.Arrows 17.L7 Where are you gonna get the arrows by level 3? All the way up in the screen west of Level 4? And then back to 7? And this route is only 1 longer than Michael's? Are you sure? I didn't count screens, but if it is, um, go for it, I guess, but it seems too long for me.
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Maybe I'm a little be skeptical, and maybe I should spend more than a few minutes thinking about it, but your route: 34h1hh2h56789 doesn't look good to me. I get what you're saying. You think if you can get the magical sword immediately, you'll save time. I don't think you've seen the video that's 30 seconds faster than Michael's. In it, he goes 34hhhh2h165879. He picks up every heart piece on the overworld. The walking time to get the three hearts on the east coast is about a minute. I do not feel that the shorter fighting time makes up for all that walking. Your route, too, seems to do a lot of walking just to get the magical sword faster. I think Michael's suggestion would be the best one to go with, but still we're both unsure. It's such a complicated game. I'm glad to see you're thinking. You're getting the right idea. We should all plan and work together in this forum before starting the video.
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It's not a cheat. If you push Up+A on the second controller, you're allowed to save and quit. When you do this, it places you at the initial starting screen of the game. Using this cuts travel time in some places.
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After completing Level 5, you whistle to 6, and then take the warp to the stone a couple screens above Level 2. I also think whistling to Level 1 and then walking to 2 would be faster than using Up+A, but whistling to 6 then warping would be fastest. No, Up+A was not used in the video I saw. Sign on and I'll send it to you.
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Pretty shitty. A really good example is in that rooms where the hands come from the walls, he waits 'till they're visible before he kills them. When doing my "tests" to see if getting sword upgrades would be faster or slower, I timed his against yours. The two darknut rooms in Level 8 took you 7 and 8 seconds with the second sword. The same rooms took him 5 and 6 seconds with the third. I think this is just because he didn't fight as well as you did. What did you think of my new route?
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Sleepz, cool. Can I have your screenname? There are actually a few nuances to the game that are not so obvious.
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Michael Fried told me he isn't going to make another video, because it took him way too long to make the first. I also feel the same way. I can't dedicate all the hours needed for making the perfect video. But as for the best route... Michael and I have probably spent more time thinking about that than actually playing the game or making a movie of it. I would hate it if I made a movie and then a faster route was discovered. You're right. I only gave a basic outline, but any Zelda 1 expert would know where everything else falls on that route. I mean to say, I didn't find it necessary to include all of the small details, because I assumed they would be understood. I think the main reason why more people haven't done this video is because they just don't know the game well enough. If you want me to, I'll type up all of the details for a guide.
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I think a game called Astyanax would make a cool video. It's just waiting to be done. Also, I wish somebody would redo Zelda 1. All the information on how to do it the fastest way is in the Zelda thread, but no one seems to be paying attention to that.
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