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Thank you very much for analyzing this, TheAxeMan. I'll see what I can do with it.
EDIT: On a related note, multiplying by 5 and adding 1 is exactly how randomness works in both Deja Vu and Uninvited. It seems they used that method for all 3 games.
EDIT2: Oh, I almost forgot - in my memory watch file, I have RAM address 04F5, and it appears that 0036 changes whenever this hits 0. Maybe that helps?
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ZenicReverie wrote:
Flip pages first and then choose speak to use Humana. Don't use Use, it's a few frames slower to do that menu navigation.
Thanks, this was 4 frames faster.
ZenicReverie wrote:
In the room where you use Motari, once you get the cursor on the menu, go up and select Speak, then select Motari.
This also saved 4 frames, nice!
ZenicReverie wrote:
Using the red gem as soon as you enter the library.
This was 11 frames slower.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Using the ladder instead of the minimap after using the water on the hellhound.
This saved 12 frames, but all those frames were lost due to bad luck on the lightning scene. With the two improvements above, it appears that I have reached the lightning scene at the first frame with 3 lightnings. If I get there x frames sooner, I would simply have to wait for x frames before pressing A. Still, I included this new strategy in the movie.
ZenicReverie wrote:
At the gargoyles, go right instead of down, go up the menu and select Speak Illumina.
This was exactly as fast, including switching pages without any command selected.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Does having an action selected when switching pages make it take longer to regain control?
Apparently it does; it takes 2 more frames for each page switch. Interesting... It's not a huge difference, but it might be enough to squeeze out some more frames somewhere in the run. I'll have to take a closer look at this.
ZenicReverie wrote:
This last one might seem a little weird, but instead of scrolling down from the top left torch, would it be faster to quickly go off the left side then back to the menu? It seems like it'd be really close, but it'd be cool if it saved even a frame. Could be many uses for it.
I have considered this, and it's exactly as fast as moving the cursor down the normal way, so unfortunately there is no use for it. A similar trick is done in the lake room on the minimap, moving the cursor off the minimap and then inside again.
ZenicReverie wrote:
It looks like you need a zero input frame between pressing a direction in the menu, but is that true of zig-zagging as well?
Yep, you still have to pause for 1 frame.
So to sum things up, these improvements add up to 20 frames, but I lost 15 frames due to worse luck on the lightning scene, so in total 5 frames saved. I tried intentionally losing a few frames in order to affect randomness, but anything faster than 5 frames forced me to wait. I do not fully understand exactly how the randomness timer works, but it appears to be a global timer, so I don't think there is much I can do about the bad luck.
New movie:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/332402521/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2f.fm2
EDIT: 3 more frames saved by fixing some minor mistakes and switching page once without any command selected. For some reason, with this improvement, I didn't have to wait for 3 more frames on the lightning scene. Weird. Now 504 frames, 8.4 sec, faster than the published run! Here's the new movie:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1334633540/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2g.fm2
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I have now looked through this route without any teleportation, and here is my feedback (note that I used the broom trick instead of picking up the horseshoe, but it shouldn't affect the overall idea of this route):
*Once you reach the banquet hall, after using key4 you have to switch back one page to reach key5 and key6, whereas in the current route there is no page switching here.
*When leaving the balcony right after having picked up the coins, the item page will switch back to page 1. When you now go to the skeleton room, you will have to switch to page 2 in order to reach the scepter and ring. On the other hand, this is still faster than the current route where there are 2 page changes here.
*You will need to change page when using the wand on the snake, and then switch again when you are to use the blade.
*You will need to pick up and use the torch in the room where you get the cloak, right after taking the staff.
*You'll save 3 page changes by not having to switch pages between spell usage.
Add to this the 2 additional screen transitions mentioned earlier. It seems that this route is not faster than the current route. If you want to avoid randomness, it seems best to use the current route but walk instead of using the teleportation.
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I have revised the run a few times, and found a very small menu navigation improvement to the newest run (3 frames saved in the lake room). However, after editing this in, it led me to another discovery: not only is the number of lightnings in the last room random, where they appear is also random and has an impact on how long this scene will take. Although I was ahead of the current run once I reached the last room, I lost frames here due to a longer lightning scene, even though I got 3 lightnings. The good news is that this means that I got lucky in the v2c run, getting all the lightnings on the right hand side. I haven't looked into this in detail, but it seems I now have another thing to worry about in the TAS.
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Good news: Your route in the star map room was faster by 24 frames:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/551217304/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2c.fm2
475 frames, 7.92 sec, faster than the published run. Closing in on 8 seconds!
Bad news:
After having tried a lot of ideas, I actually doubt that picking up an extra item in order to put scepter one position lower in the inventory is faster. Here's a summary of what I know (please fill me in if I missed something):
*The motivation for picking up an extra item is to avoid 3 page changes - 2 in the skeleton room, and 1 when using the orb on the staff (there is actually only 1 page change here, after you used the orb the page instantly changes to the last page without any loading time).
*Since the time to pick up an item is a little more than the time of 2 page changes, you want to pick up an item such that it does not cause any page change when you pick it up.
*You want to pick it up after the wand, otherwise the wand will be on the wrong page when you use it on the snake.
*(obviously) You have to pick it up before the scepter.
This narrows down the candidates quite a bit. The torch in the stone corridor is probably the best candidate: it would force a page change when picking it up, but that won't waste any time since we would avoid a page change when picking up the scepter. I tried this, and it was faster than the current route, up to the point where we use the talisman - now the talisman is on the next page, forcing a page change, making this route slower. The only option now would be to use up this extra torch before this point, but using a torch is slower than one page change, making this overall slower.
I hope that wasn't too confusing. I also tried picking up the crest in the banquet hall, and this also worked fine and would have been faster than the current route if it wasn't for the talisman at the very end.
What do you think, did I miss something?
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ZenicReverie wrote:
Speak Epor instead of Using it.
Thank you, 8 frames saved by this.
ZenicReverie wrote:
take key 3 then sphere? I'm not sure if this would be faster, but maybe you'll be closer to the mini-map?
This is only 3 frames slower, so it's a close call.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Use hammer, then cloak, take broom, use key 3? This seems like a better order, but unsure if it'd save frames.
This was 9 frames slower.
ZenicReverie wrote:
I've been opening map, then going up ladder, but I'm not sure it's probably slower.
I found this to mess up the inventory order (having to switch pages to use the arrow, and switching again to use the wand) so I think opening the star map after taking the blade is faster.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Did taking an extra torch not help save time by keeping the scepter and staff on the last page? You didn't mention testing this. You could use the torch while paging to the spells.
Oh yeah, I tested this, and I found the best place to pick up an additional torch to be in the mirror room after taking the staff. This took an additional 88 frames, about 28 frames more than the page switching takes in the skeleton room, so this didn't save any time.
Thank you for all the feedback! I edited in this 8 frames improvement (which turned out only 7 frames faster due to randomness). New movie file:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1868215145/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2b.fm2
Now 451 frames (7.52 sec) faster than the published run!
And I will try to test the route you posted here to see if it can save time in your console speedrun (I haven't completely forgotten).
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Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
Randil wrote:
I just finished re-TASing this game with the new broom trick - it saved an amazing 142 frames (2.37 sec)! This means that this run is 444f (7.4 sec) faster than the published run. I picked up the broom right before using key 3 in the mirror room. I picked up bottle 2 in the rope room, as before. Item order worked out beautifully, so that was not an issue. Here's the new run:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1768869385/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2.fm2
This is now officially disgusting! I LOVE IT!
I never thought this run would ever be improved so much, Let alone 7 freaking seconds!
Hurray for cross collaboration!
Edit: Was Key 3 Used as the most convienient item in the inventory to get booted to the coffins, or would almost any Non-Sphinx item do so if done on the correct frame?
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Thank you! Your encouragement is always a big motivation. :) As for using Key3 on the sphinx, any item will do (it is only the frame you do it on that matters), and I chose key3 simply because it was the fastest to move to.
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I just finished re-TASing this game with the new broom trick - it saved an amazing 142 frames (2.37 sec)! This means that this run is 444f (7.4 sec) faster than the published run. I picked up the broom right before using key 3 in the mirror room. I picked up bottle 2 in the rope room, as before. Item order worked out beautifully, so that was not an issue. Here's the new run:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1768869385/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2.fm2
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This address is always 0 at start up (at least in my experience), so it should work every time on console too.
You are right in that this route will require the sphinx to ask the correct question in order to pull off the teleportation to the coffin room. However, this teleportation is not in any way required in a speedrun, and you might want to play it safe and use the old route. The coffin room teleportation does save about 4 seconds, but if you decide to skip it in a console speedrun, and use this new broom trick, there is no random element left in the route, which can be very convenient.
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ZenicReverie wrote:
That's a strange occurrence, I could have sworn I walked up to him once, showed him the map and then was teleported to the coffin room without him asking a question. This was after answering his first question though, so maybe after answering it will fluctuate.
I posted on SDA as well, but the main points are:
Do we pick up the broom after using the cloak but before key 3 or do we skip bottle 2 during the first pass?
How does this affect teleporting with the Sphinx to the coffin room later on?
It's really good to have that consistency in a console run, and it'd be great if teleporting to the coffin room was also somehow deterministic.
Here are some more details on this:
The game has a RAM address (0x4FB) determining what question the sphinx has asked. This has a value between 0 and 5, for the six different questions. When the game starts, this address has value 0, which corresponds to the broom question. The only way this address can change is when the sphinx asks you a new question. Even after having presented the sphinx with the correct item, the value of this address remains, so if you present him with the wrong item after answering correctly, you will be teleported according to the question he just asked.
The game programmers probably gave this RAM address the start up value 0 as in "has not been set yet" and didn't consider that the value 0 corresponds to one of the questions.
In order to get teleported to the coffin room later on, we will simply have to make the sphinx ask the map question, which will set the teleportation to the coffin room. This will as usual require some luck to get him to ask this very question.
As for when to pick up the broom and how it affects item order, I haven't really looked into this. I will put it on my todo-list. :)
EDIT: I just double checked the broom trick, and it works (at least on the U version on emulator). Nice!
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After some digging, I learned that the broom question is the default - so if you present him with a wrong item before he has asked any question, you will be teleported to the troll bridge. This also means that if you use the broom on him before even talking to him it will answer his question correctly! This is not in any way random - it should always work. Very interesting, it should definitely be nice in your console speedrun, now that you won't have to worry about the question randomness. It might save time in the TAS too, since you will skip a dialogue.
This is probably how it looks:
*You walk up to the sphinx.
*The sphinx looks at you in silence.
*Still in silence, you pull out the broom and show it to him.
*He nods approvingly and says "you have answered my question correctly."
*You walk past him.
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It depends only on what question he asks. Once he has asked his question, the place you will be teleported to when you present him with the wrong item has been decided, and is not in any way affected by randomness. You can reset the question by presenting him with the correct item. Here's a table of where you will be teleported depending on the question:
Skull: Red carpet hallway
Horseshoe: The room where you get the horseshoe and water
Mirror: Coffin room
Bellow: Library (with the glasses)
Broom: Troll bridge
Map: Globe room (with the bellow)
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Lycka till med introduktionen, säg till om jag kan bidra med något.
Det har faktiskt hänt att någon bett om en svensk översättning på en forumpost, så detta sub-forum kan nog bli användbart!
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What I'm worried about with this route are the number of screen transitions. As the table above tells, one screen transition takes roughly as much time as 3 page changes. I haven't done a thorough comparison, but it seems that this route has 4 more screen transitions than the current route: grabbing the scepter at the beginning will take 2 more screen transitions, and going to the stone hallway from the banquet hall, to deal with the skeleton king etc., will add 2 more screen transitions. This makes this route roughly 440 frames slower in terms of screen transitions, which is more than what would be saved by not having to switch pages when casting the spells. Maybe I'm missing something?
I can test out the "extra torch" and "extra gold coin" ideas this week too.
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Thanks! Yeah, this new "sphinx-teleportation-route" is now benificial because we haven't picked up the scepter at this point. In the published TAS, this route change probably wouldn't save any time.
And if any of you have an idea on how to solve the problem below, please share them (this is from my latest SDA post):
"I realized something with this new route - because now we pick up the scepter before the staff, the item order will be bad once we reach the skeleton king - we will have to switch item page both to select the scepter, and then switch page again to get to the ring. The new route is still definitely worth it, but this makes it lose some frames. It seems to be tricky to get the scepter one position higher up in the inventory list - I had an idea about picking up a torch before the scepter, but we still have to use up this torch before reaching the skeleton king, so it won't help. Maybe you have an idea on how to solve this."
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Here's Sonic Advance 2 (also high resolution, zipped and uploaded to mediafire):
http://www.mediafire.com/?1df2lhi0vys0pa2
A total of 350 different screenshots were used for this mosaic. If you have an afternoon to kill, you can entertain yourself with finding them all (or at least, say, the ten most used screenshots).
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Good news - I got it to work with ImageMagick, and can now make mosaics with much better screenshot resolution. I'm now using screenshots with resolution 72*54 (any bigger and ImageMagick works, but takes way too long). Unfortunately, the mosaics are now too big to upload to imageshack, so I'll be uploading them zipped to mediafire from now. Here's Ninja Five-O:
http://www.mediafire.com/?az45rku6qj2yv71
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I'm using matlab 32-bit.
For Imagemagick, the command I used was "montage -adjoin -mode Concatenate -tile 3072x2304 (list all the images that will make up the mosaic) montage". But the list got too long for the command window, so I couldn't paste it in one chunk. Thinking about it now, maybe I could write a .bat-file for the script? I think I will give ImageMagick another try. :)