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I did a few run throughs of 2nd quest and experimented with the whistle.
This is how whistle works in 2nd quest:
1. All warp points are in the same screens as in the 1st quest.
2. You must finish a dungeon to activate its warp point.
3. Each warp point activated doesn't necessarily correspond to the dungeon level finished, which is weird. For example:
Finish L1 - L1 Warp point activated
Finish L2 - L3 Warp point activated
Finish L3 - L2 Warp point activated
Finish L4 - L5 Warp point activated
Finish L5 - L4 Warp point activated
I think finishing a 2nd quest dungeon just activates the closest 1st quest warp point to it, like for 2nd quest L2, the closest warp point would be 1st quest L3.
Now that we have 2nd quest "Flute Mastery", we should come up with a new route that uses warping more efficiently.
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I was also thinking of doing a Zelda speedrun after finishing 2nd quest, but what I really plan on doing is a high speed side-scroller action game speed run like that Megaman Zero 2 video. Its probably going to be a SNES game too.
For Zelda speed run, one of the most important things to think about is money. With the route I use in the video, you can see that I barely manage to afford the arrows by the time I get there, and I also use the gambling game twice, which isn't a good idea in a speed run. This is the fastest route that I can come up with that is also practical for a speed run:
1.L3
2.Up+A
3.L4
4.Up+A
5.30 rupees
6.Blue Candle
7.Up+A
8.L1
9.White Sword
10.L5
11.Up+A
12.Heart Container
13.100 rupees
14.L8
15.Meat
16.L2
17.Whistle to L3
18.100 rupees
19.L7
20.Whistle to L1
21.Arrows
22.L6
23.Magical Sword
24.Whistle to L1
25.L9
-Need 30 rupees before Blue Candle.
With this route, you dont need to worry about gambling or wasting time collecting money in the dungeons (except to raise 30 rupees in L3 and L4). You still need to cope with using wooden sword for L4 though. I HIGHLY recommend you get the Magical Sword for at least L9. In my video, my L9 loses 20 seconds to Michaels L9 just because I didnt have the Magical Sword. In a speed run, it could be double that or more. It only wastes around 30 seconds collecting the one heart container and obtaining the magical sword, so I say its worth it. Also, don't Up+A after getting the sword since it will take away your full health.
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I wont be able to get started on the 2nd quest until next weekend. I have a lot of work to catch up on, but Ill try that route you posted if I have any free time during the week.
By the way, does someone know how the whistle works in the 2nd quest? I'm not sure but I think I remember reading somewhere that it works differently in the 2nd quest.
I believe in the 2nd quest, you can whistle to any dungeon as soon as you get the whistle. Not 100% sure, so you might want to test that out. It would really save a lot of time.
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Well, I didnt use the 60fps version until after I finished the video. I just used it for stopping the video 3 frames shorter at the end. I used the regular version for recording the run and timing the playback. The time difference probably doesnt involve the 60fps version at all, so dont worry about it. Thanks for bringing up that point though.
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Michael Fried wrote:
I thought you had to switch screens before you blew the whistle again. Does it only work if you press B again at exactly the right time?
Well no, just blow twice to move up or down 2 dungeons. If you wanted to go to the same dungeon you just whistled to, blow in any direction 8 times, or once to the left and once to the right, which, btw, makes this the new fastest route:
1.L3
2.Up+A
3.Gamble x2
4.Blue Candle
5.L4
6.Up+A
7.L1
8.White Sword
9.L5
10.Whistle to L1
11.Arrows
12.L6
13.Up+A
14.100 rupees
15.L8
16.Meat
17.L2
18.Whistle to L3
19.L7
20.Whistle to L1
21.L9
Its the same route we used, but with 1 less whistle blow. Its not as practical though, just like the 80 rupee plan, since you wont be able to save enough money by the time you buy the arrows. Its a good thing we decided to go with the 30 rupee plan, because you can see I only managed to accumulate 83 rupees by the time I buy the 80 rupee arrows. Cutting it close, again.
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Hmm, didnt think about that one at the time. You can cross it, as long as zolas not in the way.
Edit: Btw Mike, I blew the whistle twice everytime I used it. You were probably fast forwarding during that part.
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blip wrote:
I just want to congratulate Sleepz and the team on a superb time attack video. It was hugely entertaining, and it was clear from watching it that a good amount of cleverness and trickery went into its creation.
Bravo!
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Michael Fried wrote:
TSA watched the video and made some comments about it, so in case anyone's interested, here's his post, copied from the ZHQ forums. He kept saying "you" so he must have thought that I made the video even though I already said in an earlier post that Sleepz made it, but in the next post I said again that I wasn't the one who made it.
Wow, this guy's as picky as you are Mike :) . I've read over all those points, and I have my reasons for each one of them, like shooting the blue lynel(where will I get the heart refill before L5?) or the L9 silver arrrow room(needed to get a heart from the blue wizzrobes, which I cant get if I finish them with a bomb). As I said in one of my earlier posts, for most of these little things, you can only understand why they needed to be done if you were in the situation itself and at slow speeds. To someone watching in the sideline, they just pass off as pointless mistakes.
To me, the only 2 real mistakes in this video are not switching to the candle after L5, like you said earlier, and maybe getting the key in L7 instead of L5 or L1. Still, I only see 4-5 seconds wasted there. Its a shame that TSA watched the AVI file instead of the fmv. Now its gonna be tough to convince him that it is really 26:56.
Now about the video time, I played both the FMV and the AVI side by side, and the AVI is playing significantly slower than the FMV file. Right now, I'm not 100% sure which one is giving the correct completion time. Does anyone know whats going on here?
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Bisqwit, I just downloaded the Zelda video and watched it, and theres a huge problem with it. The avi shows that I reach Zelda at 28:35 instead of 26:56. Well, I took my stopwatch, played the fmv file at normal speed, and timed it, and it is in fact 26:56. Dunno what happened there, but this problem needs to be fixed ASAP.
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Well, I redid the Ganon fight twice and it ended up being the same as my first fight (have to move a bit to land the last hit), so I just kept in the first fight. Tried getting him closer to the door again, but its still slower. Ganon starts off in the top left, then teleports to points in the lower half of the screen before up again. I also end the video 3 frames faster, but it still ends up as 26:56. Submitting now.
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Ok. You're right there. Anything else?
Edit: Besides the candle switch, do you think its good enough to be submitted?
On another note, even though the run took somewhat longer than expected, I think it sort of looks neat that its just barely under that 27 min mark. 26:56. It stresses the fact that its under 27 min.
As for a sub 26:30, I dont know where I can make up 26 whole seconds, and sub-26 is just out of the question.
Edit: Up+A after 7 would actually be a hair faster, but the thing is, I need full health for L9. Up+A takes that away.
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L9 Time = 4:18, which is 20 seconds slower than yours. I'm uncertain if this is a good time or not, also factoring in the one room cleared for the key. I think it is though, considering that a total of 10 rooms had to be cleared with a lesser sword.
I just thought of an idea. When you start hitting Ganon over and over, see if you're able to get him to be at the top of the room when you do that. If you're somehow able to do that, you would have a shorter walk to the triforce and save another second or two.
Already tried it. More time is wasted waiting for Ganon to teleport closer to the door than going straight at him.
Edit: It's sent.
Edit: Sorry, forgot to hit send. Its sent now.
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LOL, I touch Zelda at 26:56. I promised sub-27 didn't I? Talk about close. This is run was about 30 seconds longer than I expected. Im gonna look over L9 again then send it to you Michael and see if you give it the thumbs up.
Btw, the trick with hitting Ganon over and over again only works after the 2nd hit. It wont work on the first hit.
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Ouch. The new L7 = 2:30, 13 seconds slower. But lets see:
(13 sec) - (2sec for whistle switch) = 11 sec
- (2sec for bombs) = 9 sec detour for key
I guess not too bad since the L1 key or key glitch takes about 6-8? I guess even sub-26:30 is out now. Might even be a struggle for a sub-27.
Almost done L9.
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Ok, problem solved. I decided to get the extra key in L7 by bombing to the right of the first Digdogger. This takes a second or two longer than getting the key in L1, but I can also get bomb refills from the enemies there instead of killing the Dodongo later on. So it all works out. The video will be finished in a few hours.
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Ok, funny story.
I'm in Ganon's lair, nearing the end of the quest. I go up 2 rooms, and clear the room for the first key. I now have 2 keys (I came in with 1). Now I bomb left, take the stairs, go right through 1 locked door, go up through another locked door, and left to the second set of stairs. Now, I'm in a room with 5 zols and 3 locked doors, so I check the key guide:
Edit 2: Here's the new key plan:
Level 3: 2-1=1
Level 4: 1+2-2=1
Level 1: 1+4-4=1 (key glitch not used)
Level 5: 1+2-3=0 (skip the 2 keys in the rooms with 5 gibdos)
Level 8: 0+1-1=0 (skip the key before the boss)
Level 2: 0+3-0=3
Level 6: 3+3-2=4
Level 7: 4+0-3=1
Level 9: 1+2-3=0
Looks like I'm missing one key. So I check the map, and it looks like the last key that I need to unlock the last door is actually BEHIND the last door. And looking at the map again, I see no other keys in sight. Michael, where am I going to get this last key from?
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Its no problem. I know you just want the video to be perfect and all.
Anyways, here are the times for the last few levels:
L6 = 1:54, 4 seconds slower
L7 = 2:21, 4 seconds slower
For L6, about 3 seconds was lost in the Vire room because the enemies were just too spread out, but because of having a weaker sword, it is expected to be a little slower.
For L7, took about 2-3 seconds getting extra bombs from Dodongo, but the level is still slower.
I know I said I would have it done by last night, but L6 and L7 need to be redone. With the current times, I arrive at Ganon's level at 22:20, which is a little longer than I expected. I already know my time will be a little slower for L9. Michael took 3:58 for L9, so that gives me an allowence of 42 seconds to get a sub-27. Looks like a sub-26 isnt likely, but a sub-26:30 is probably what its going to be. I'm going back to see where the time went.
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OK, these are NOT mistakes:
Another mistake I forgot to mention yesterday is that in level 1 in the room above the map room, you could have bounced off the stalfos instead of stabbing him and then taking the key.
No, you cant bounce off that stalfos. Its no mistake. If you dont believe me, then just stop the fmv when you get to that room and try to bouce off that stalfos. You're wrong there.
Regarding Level 4 boss:
It doesn't matter because you have a certain amount of time to move in between hits, so you can spend that time moving up.
If you watch the video again, you will see that I'm in front of him for the 2nd last hit. That means the furthest I can move before he stops flashing is to his side. And once again, killing him in this position is gets me a fairy, which is actually important. So tell me again how I made a "mistake" here.
Like you said, the two extra sword swings and link walking an extra tile doesnt even add up to a whole second, so why is this a big deal when I'm doing a lot of the fights several seconds faster than yours and guaranteeing everyone a sub-27 time?
You keep bringing these points up as "mistakes" because you weren't in the situation. The point you brought up about the stalfos is proof. You just assumed I made a mistake there by not boucing off like you would normally do, when in fact it wont work in that exact situation. I know I asked for your opinion on it, but this isn't what I was looking for. I sent you the fmv so you can tell me if I made any real screw-ups, such as missing a key, etc. Not one point you brought up would save me any time or help me in any way, and you want me to redo all these levels just to make the changes? Then I have to take the time to explain why I did all these little things, when they shouldn't need to be explained at all. Not only that, you're giving everyone the impression that my video is so full of errors, when it's not, and the video hasn't even been submitted yet. So sorry if I'm just a little irritated here.
Bisqwit, regarding the attitude, I think I just explained it.
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Bisqwit wrote:
That's wrong attitude. Errors like that, when they cumulate, are sometimes a reason why I reject a movie.
Bisqwit, how can you believe that they are errors when you havent even seen the video yet? Only 2 people have seen it, Me and Michael. Michael thinks they are problems, and I think they are not. All the supposed "problems" Michael has brought up about the run wouldnt even save me half a second if all the changes were made. So how can you expect me to throw away 3 days work just because some things dont look "right" in Michael's opinion? I'm not a newb at this. If theres a real problem with my run, then Ill fix it, but in the video, theres no real problems, and I'm not going back to make those changes.
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Michael Fried wrote:
Edit 2: I might not have made myself clear enough, but I think that of all the things I mentioned, this one is the most important. If you haven't redone this already, I think it's very important that you redo this to save the Link-length of walking, even if it means redoing 3 levels (though I'm not sure if I would be saying this if I was the one making the speed run :). I understand it only saves a small fraction of a second, but appearance is everything (unless of course if a better appearance means a worse time, but that's not the case). I'm pretty sure at least some people will notice it, and someone might even make a comment about it.
Look, I'm not redoing 3 whole levels just because Link took an extra step or did an extra sword swing, and I know you wouldnt either. Nobody besides us would notice, or even care.
Sleepz wrote:
I was more looking for any mistakes that would waste maybe a whole second or more.
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I dont see these as significant problems at all:
>Edit: In the first dark room in level 4, if you had gone around the left side of the water instead of the right side, you only would have had to kill 1 zol instead of 2.
I only kill 1 and just moved the other, and the key is more on the right side. 2nd dark room btw.
>Edit 2: When you fought the boss in level 4, if you made the last hit from higher up and facing down, you would have had a shorter distance to walk to the door.
It doesnt matter anyways because if wanted to make the last hit from higher up, I would have to MOVE to that position first, so same amount of walking distance to the door, and the boss drops a fairy from the position I kill him in.
>Edit 3: In the room before the boss in level 1, you went half a Link-length farther down than you had to.
How much time is wasted walking half a Link?
>Edit 5: I have a question. Whenever you have to wait for an enemy to die or move out of the way, do you always test every frame to make sure you start walking as soon as possible? Also, did you test every frame to make sure you dropped the bomb to kill the level 3 boss as soon as possible?
For the level 3 boss, I had to move a little more forward before dropping the bomb. If I didnt, he drops a fairy instead of bombs.
Thanks for going over it though. I was more looking for any mistakes that would waste maybe a whole second or more.
Anyways, L5 = 2:23, which is 29 seconds faster. I timed the two blue darknut rooms seperately, and each room was 2 seconds faster using bombs. Looks great at normal speed too.
L8 = 1:19, which is 1:04 faster. The blue darknut rooms for this level were 2.5 seconds faster each, and the boss was done a hair faster.
L2 = 1:13, which is 8 seconds slower. I think that is reasonable. (8sec) - (2sec for switching to flute) =6 sec / (3 rooms cleared for keys) = 2 seconds per room cleared.
I exit L2 at about 15:30, and I'm 1:43 seconds ahead in dungeon time. Just need to finish 6,7,9, which will probably be done by tonight. Ill send you guys the finished run before I submit it. Ramzi, need your email.