Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ramzi, the route you came up with totals up to 7:29, which is 6 seconds faster than Michael's route. However, I think it would waste more than 6 seconds in lvl6 fighting the blue wiz rooms with wooden sword, especially since they take longer to kill than blue darknuts. I'm gonna keep trying more routes.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ok, Ill try your route next. The other route I was considering to try was 3415, then 2 or 8, 7,6. What do you guys think? Im looking for something that will give me closer to 7:00.
Also, in the test I did, I gambled 5 times, but in my actual run, it will most likely be 4.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
28:01 is the estimated time for:
Level 3, raft
Up+A
Gambling game 4 times (or 5 times, depending on whether you can get enough rupees from enemies)
Blue Candle
Level 4, ladder
Bait (if you do 7 after 2+8, you can also get this just before level 2)
Level 1, bow
Arrows
Power Bracelet
Up+A
Right 2 screens and warp to near level 5
White sword (it might be faster to get this after level 5)
Level 5
Whistle to level 3
Level 7
Up+A
Right 2 screens and warp to near level 5
Level 2
Level 8
Up+A
Right 2 screens and warp to near level 6
Level 6
Whistle to level 1
Level 9, silver arrows
The dungeons will probably be done faster and can be optimized. Right now, I'm timing to see which of the Overworld routes is the fastest. I still have a few more to check. Maybe one of them will be faster still.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ok, here are the times I recorded:
Michael's run:
Total Dungeon Time(1-8) - 16:28
Total Overworld Time - 11:00
Time from start to Level 9 - 27:28
Bracelet run:
Total Dungeon Time(1-8) - ?
Total Overworld Time(1-8) - 7:35 (give or take a few seconds for fighting)
This route getting the Bracelet is 3:25 faster than Michael's first route. Assuming all the dungeons are done just as fast, the Total estimated time, including level 9, would be 28:01 sec.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ramzi wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something totally obvious, but...
Level 5, whistle
Up+A
Arrows
Level 8
Where do you get the arrows? By the shop next to the fairy? That's a two screen detour.
I think its the arrow shop along the east coast, which is beside 8.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
It seems a new route is coming up every day, which is good. That looks like an interesting route. This is what I think we should do. We should decide on the 3 best possible routes, then Ill just do an overworld run through and record the times for each route. Then after that, we can factor in everything else to decide on the best route. I dont think we should rely on how many screens a route takes, since you walk a different amout in each screen. Its best to rely on actual run time.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Makou wrote:
Also, although it's irrelevant since a new trick was found, is there any benefit to using Mario in 6-3 instead of Toad, or was that done just to throw in another character?
If you watched my video, you see that when I used Toad, he has to do a squat jump to get to Tryclyde, but since Mario jumps higher, he doesnt have to. Genisto also used my trick of getting hurt and throwing the blocks from inside the enemy, but he managed to do all 3 hits with one block, which was nice.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Sleepz wrote:
Also, I managed to clear the darknut room with only 2 bombs, and in quarter the time. I think that using more bombs could potentially save a whole minute or more off the run. Thats a major time saver right there.
Shoot. Sorry, made a mistake there, probably due to staying up so long. I acutally wrote down Michaels time for the BLUE darknut room and was comparing to the red darknut room. The fact is my time using the 2 bombs was the same as Michael's time using the white sword. I still think using more bombs for fights will save considerable time though. Also, level 3 will still be done faster due to Up+A.
This is what I think of the times for the first few levels:
Level 3 - Will be faster due to Up+A.
Level 4 - Will be around 5-7 seconds slower because of using wooden sword for ladder room and Gleeok.
Level 1 - Will be faster because of more bomb use and Up+A. (Using Up+A after Bow means that you dont need to open 1 locked door, you can use a bomb in the compass room instead. This means that you dont need to detour and get the key from the skeleton in the side room)
Level 5 - Will be faster because of more bomb use and Up+A.
Even for title screens 15% is slow enough for me to enter names as fast as possible. It's more important to use autofire because Famtasia only displays one of every 3 frames and it's impossible to enter names as fast as with autofire. By the way, I hope you didn't enter your name as Sleepz. That would be so not cool since the name "A" is a lot cooler (and faster).
My Starting screen is as fast as yours. I used "A".
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
I saw the new Super Mario 2 video. Congratulations to Genisto on this new run. He really figured this game out and added some neat ideas for speeding things up. I like how he used the key instead of the egg in 1-2, which was a barrier for faster completion of the level on all previous runs. Thats the kind of stuff I like to see.
This video also confirms that the fastest time Wart can be beaten in is 35 seconds, no matter what you do.
I still wonder whether this trick could be used to save time in 6-3.
You're right Bisqwit, using that trick would be 4 or more seconds faster. Also, after watching Genistos run, I'm pretty sure the 7-1 POW block trick can be pulled off. Looks like theres still a small space for improvement after all. Anyone up for a sub-8:30 run?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
I think getting the key from level 3 will be faster than getting it from the skeleton in L1 since I'm already at the top of the screen when the bomb goes off. Ill have to check.
By the way, Sleepz, what speed do you usually set Famtasia at when you make speed runs? Bisqwit said he plays at 40% or 30%, and I was wondering if I was the only person who plays at 15%. I just can't imagine making a very accurate speed run at 40% or 30%.
Since Megaman 3, the speed that I have Famtasia set on is 15%, but for Title screens, Select screens or Sub-menus I use 10%.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ok, I just did lvl5 with wooden sword and bombs, and I believe it would be faster to detour get the white sword first. The blue darknut rooms, the mummies and the boss take way too long with wooden sword even with using bombs at the same time.
34152 is looking really good right now.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
Are you using the sword also? Using a combination of bombs and the sword is even faster (or maybe with the first sword it's not, I'm not sure).
I dont need to use the sword for the whole level, just once to move the blob aside. Bombs can kill red darknuts in one hit.
Michael Fried wrote:
Looks can be deceiving, if you count the screens, you'll be in for a surprize.
[1 to 5 (including the white sword)] + [start to 2] < [1 to 2] + [2 to 5 (including the white sword)
If thats true, then thats the path Ill use if I get the white sword.
Ramzi, I need to know if I have to get that key in the room above. I cant go forward until I know for sure.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
Doesn't that mean you'll have to wait for the heart to fill up when you get the triforce? You should time it to see if the time lost is more or less than the time gained.
No, because one of the darknuts also drops a heart.
Michael Fried wrote:
Edit: By the way, I haven't timed it, but I think it saves time if you do Up+A after getting the raft (I hope you remembered to check off both controllers).
Yea, both controllers are recording and so is up+A, and youre right, it is faster to Up+A for the raft.
Michael Fried wrote:
How about starting out with 3415 instead of 34125, and that way the white sword is only 2 screens out of the way instead of 4.
Maybe, but wouldnt that lose the shorter distance of taking 2 then 5? If you take 5 first, then its gonna be a long walk to 2 no matter what you do, so it will end up being more than 2 screens detour. Also, according to Ramzi, getting white sword for 5 might not even be worth it?
Also, I managed to clear the darknut room with only 2 bombs, and in quarter the time. I think that using more bombs could potentially save a whole minute or more off the run. Thats a major time saver right there.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ok, I'm in level 3. Got through the compass room 1 second faster than Michael by getting the bat to push me. Now in the red darknut room.
Question, do I quickly grab the key in the room above that? You counted all the keys and said that its faster to detor for keys in some of the early levels rather than the later levels.
Btw, I pulled a Bomberman and cleared the red darknut room with just 3 bombs, no sword, and in about half the time it took Michael using the white sword. Also, the darknut dropped some bombs I can use for the walls. Bombs=Fast
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ramzi wrote:
11.L2
12.Rock Heart Container
13.White Sword
14.L5
If you're going to go left to get the heart container, you're gonna have to go right again. I'm sure you knew that, but just pointing it out. Also, to get the White Sword before level 5, you'll have to walk there and back. As I've mentioned, I'm not too fond of getting the white sword, but if you want to, you could get it after doing level 5, that way you could whistle wherever you want after getting it, and you can skip the walk back from the sword to level 5. Granted, you won't have it for the darknuts, but blah blah blah. .
So you believe I should do 5 without getting the white sword? It might be faster. Most of the points about fighting that have been brought up deal with only the level of sword you have. My fights will be faster for the harder rooms because I will be using more bombs. How much faster will a blue darknut room be cleared with wooden sword assuming 2 bombs will be used in the fight.
Ramzi wrote:
The whole route seems very good to me, though. I was impressed. The only part of it I *really* had a problem with was:
15.Whistle to L3
16.Arrows
17.L7
Where are you gonna get the arrows by level 3? All the way up in the screen west of Level 4? And then back to 7? And this route is only 1 longer than Michael's? Are you sure? I didn't count screens, but if it is, um, go for it, I guess, but it seems too long for me.
Yes:
Michael's Route -
From Lvl1>Arrows>Lvl2= 2 screen detour
Sleepz Route -
From Lvl3>Arrows>Lvl7= 3 screen detour
However, I forgot to mention the extra heart container on route to lvl2. So, by getting the 1H and the extra screen for arrows, would the time wasted be worth it for Magical Sword in Lvl 8? 8 has 2 rooms of blue darknuts and 4 headed Gleeok as the boss. Might not be a major time saver, but a timer saver no less. But Im sure we are all looking for the major time saver on the overworld map.
Ill probably start recording lvl3 for now, since its for sure.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Ok, you're probably right. Touching any of the Heart containers on the east coast wastes a significant amount of time and its not worth getting the Magical Sword that early. You guys have put a lot more time into this than I have, its only now that I see how difficult it is. Michael's route is definitely good, but the only thing I dont like is that it only uses the Magical Sword for L6, when it would be a lot more useful for other levels like L8 which is darknut infested. Since getting any of the east coast heart containers wastes too much time, I came up with this route:
1.L3
2.Up+A
3.Gamble
4.Candle
5.L4
6.Meat
7.Tree Heart Container
8.L1
9.Up+A
10.South Heart Container
11.L2
12.Rock Heart Container
13.White Sword
14.L5
15.Whistle to L3
16.Arrows
17.L7
18.Magical Sword
19.L6
20.Whistle to L2
21.L8
22.Whistle to L1
23.L9
This route takes only 1 screen longer than Michael's route, but you will have the Magical Sword for use in both L6 and L8(where its more useful) instead of just L6.
In my opinion, this looks like a definite time saver, wouldn't you say?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
I'm doing 1-2 now. I did the first part of the level faster than Sleepz, but when I timed the Birdo fights, mine was almost a second slower, and I can't figure out what I did wrong. Does anyone have any advice for me?
Edit: I just noticed that in Sleepz video Birdo shot the first egg sooner, but I don't know why.
Edit 2: I just watched my video and Sleepz video a few more times and I have no idea what's going on in that Birdo fight. I can't figure out why he's taking an extra second to shoot the first egg, so I'll just give up and continue making the video with only a half second lead over Sleepz instead of almost 2 seconds.
Since you are willing to share your insight on Zelda, Ill share what I know about Mario 2. Hope its not too long a read.
>I just noticed that in Sleepz video Birdo shot the first egg sooner, but I don't know why. I can't figure out why he's taking an extra second to shoot the first egg.
This is how Birdo works, and you will probably disagree with me, but you can test it for yourself, Ive already done so:
Birdo is always moving and shooting eggs, no matter where you are in the level, and does it in intervals. In level 1-2, no matter who you use, you will be able to pick up the first egg at the same time. Doing random movements wont help. Even if you finish the level a second or two faster, that just mean you will have to wait a second or two more for the first egg. The only reason Toad finishes this level 0.5 seconds faster is because the throws the eggs and picks up the sphere faster. The only way you can do this level faster than that is if you can arrive at Birdo maybe 3-4 seconds faster.
Some examples to support my theory:
Level 1-1, you finish 0.5 seconds faster than me. That means you probably picked up the same egg I did, but because you used Toad, its 0.5 sec faster.
Level 1-1, Genisto and I arrive at the boss screen at almost the exact same time. Mine is 4 seconds faster because I was able to pick up 1 egg before him.
Level 1-2, even if you finish the level faster, everyone will pick up the first egg at the same time.
Level 6-1, because I get to Birdo faster than Genisto, he is further back than when Genisto fights him. Thats why I have to jump forward more where as Genisto falls straight down.
>I'm fighting Birdo in 6-1 and I can't figure out how to do the trick where the mushroom block bounces off your head. First I jumped in the air, then I dropped the block, then I got Toad under the block, then it dropped on Birdo, and then instead of bouncing off of Toads head, it just went through him and landed on the ground. Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong?
There are 2 ways to get the Block to bounce:
1. Drop it from a high location.
2. Take out an enemy with it. (See my 6-3, I use it on Birdos egg)
A faster way to doing 6-1 Birdo is if you can bounce the Block off his egg. That way, you dont have to jump high in the air. Dunno if that Birdo shoots eggs though.
>At the end of 6-1 when Sleepz threw the mushroom block at the eagle head so he could stand on it, was that just done to look cool or does it save time?
Its significantly faster. The way I finished Eagle Head and Triclyde is the fastest way.
>Similar is to be expected from Wart. Sometimes he's always far when the vegetables appear, sometimes he's near.
It doesnt matter if hes near or far, or how fast you hit him with the vegetables. The only thing that determines how fast you beat Wart is how fast you can hit him with the Final Vegetable. From the time you enter the room, to the time the white door appears, it will be approx 35 seconds, no matter who you use or what you do.
Other thoughts for improvement:
Level 4-1 and 4-2, when Im jumping around, I sometimes do jumps off enemies. If you notice, it slows me down for a fraction of a second. Dont jump off the enemies.
Level 6-2, you notice after my squat jump, I move backwards on the bird to get the 2nd flying devil thing to appear. You might not have to move back, you can just keep going forward, it depends if the 2nd flying devil randomly appears. Save maybe 0.5 seconds.
Level 6-3, I do a crappy ladder climb, might save a quarter of a second.
Level 7-1, the only way I can think of doing this level significantly faster is by accelerating the rocket. The plan was to go right and quickly pick up the POW block, run back and either double jump off the bird or double jump bug. If you can pull this off, you can save 1 or 2 seconds off the level. I had no luck pulling this off though.
Also, in random times and places in my run(see 7-1 on the clouds), there are slowdowns. Make sure you have none of these in your run.
If you can do all this, then you should have a fully optimized time attack.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
Do you know yet which route you're going to use? Here's the one I recommend:
First Sword
Level 3, raft
Up+A
Gambling game a few times, making sure to win 50 rupees each time
Blue Candle
Level 4, ladder
Bait
Heart Container from tree
Level 1, bow
Arrows
Level 2
Heart Container from rock
White sword
Level 5, whistle
Whistle to level 2
Level 8 (don't get the magic key, this was a mistake in my video, which also caused me too choose a much longer route because I wanted to get it early)
Whistle to level 3
Level 7
Magical Sword
Level 6
Whistle to level 1
Level 9, silver arrows
Another mistake in my video was that I didn't use bombs often enough in fights, which made my fights slower, so make sure you use some bombs in your fights, especially in the first few levels where you have the first sword. Also keep in mind that there are many places where you can use Up+A inside the levels, such as after getting the bow in level 1, the raft in level 3, or the whistle in level 5. There are also times that you might not even think of where Up+A saves time, such as after getting the first sword or after getting the key from the stalfos one screen right of the start of level 1. Also don't forget about the key glitch in level 1, which takes less time than many other keys (and also prevents anyone from trying to submit the video to Twin Galaxies since they banned that glitch). If you have any questions about how I did something in my video, feel free to ask because many things require very precise timing and it could be hard to tell what I did. One example is how I reentered level 1 instantly instead of moving half a link-length down and then back up. The way I did this is when Link was all the way out, I quickly tapped right and then pressed up, and this somehow let me reenter without having to go down at all. Also, if you ever want me to watch what you did so far to see if I have any suggestions for improvement, feel free to send me the fmv.
Ive been staring at the overworld map and making several different routes all night. You definitely have the right idea about the start off:
First Sword
Level 3, raft
Up+A
Gambling game a few times, making sure to win 50 rupees each time
Blue Candle
Level 4, ladder
Bait
Heart Container from tree
Level 1, bow
But after level 1 is where all the different paths open up. You can go the level 6 route, but level 6 will be very slow with a wooden sword. I was also thinking of getting the bracelet, Up+A right away, south shore Heart Container, Level 2, but getting the bracelet is actually slower path to get back at the Magical sword and lvl 6.
It all keeps coming down to the question "Lvl3 Sword Early, or Lvl3 Sword Later". Your route looks like it might be the fastest for "Lvl3 Sword Later". Last night I came up with the potentially fastest route for "Lvl3 Sword Early". After Lvl 1:
1.Up+A
2.Straight right for Heart Container
3.Right along the coast for Heart Container(east shore-two bridges)
4.Buy Arrow
5.Go through the forest to Lvl 2
6.Heart Container at rock
7.White Sword maybe(depends how fast lvl5 can be done with wooden sword and bombs)
8.Lvl 5
9.Whistle to Lvl 1
10.Magic Sword
11.Lvl 6
12.Whistle to 3
13.Lvl 7
14.Whistle to 2
15.Lvl 8
16.Whistle to 1
17.Lvl 9
With this route, you will have the Magical Sword for use on Level 6,7,8 and 9, of course only if the "Magical Sword Early" is faster. It just takes up a few seconds walking along the coast for the other heart container though, but the arrow and the other heart container are on the way. Also, Walking to Lvl 6 from Lvl 1 is actually faster than getting the bracelet, Up+A, Tunnel, Lvl 6.
Ive read the Twin Galaxies thread about the Zelda run, and they stress the use of the Whistle. Dunno if they mean "use it more", "use it more effectively" or "use it in a different way". Whistle is used 4 times in my route and Up+A is used twice. Wish Up+A could be abused more.
Im gonna spend a few more hours planning before I get started. Let me know what you guys think of this route. Hopefully, the route will be finalized by the time I'm done Level 1.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
I don't plan on making another Zelda speed run in the near future. I don't mind if you make a Zelda speed run that's faster than mine, but if you do, make sure the fighting is as good as possible. I don't want my video to be replaced by a video with worse fighting.
Well ok, since you dont mind, I have decided to go ahead with the Zelda run. Also, the fighting will definitely be top notch. Ill just keep re-doing each room until it at least ties with your times. Ill keep you and Ramzi updated on the progress in "The Legend of Zelda" topic.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Time - 25:11
Notes and points of interest:
-decided to go ahead and take damage which took almost a whole minute off the run. Took damage for any situation that would waste 2 or more seconds.
-took 1 hit on the first boss to make him stand still, in case youre wondering why I did that.
-Killed the 3 bosses much faster, and killed them all with the mallet >:)
-Gained maximum arrow strengh, finished all rooms in under 10 sec.
-found a good use for a platform bug on 2-3. Didnt have to wait for any platforms after that. Saved around 20 sec.
-Bought an angel feather in 2-3 for use in 3-2. Saved at least 10 sec.
-found a much faster way to kill Medusa without using doubleshots.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
Would this also apply if the difference is 2 minutes instead of just 2 seconds? What happens if Sleepz uses a better route to get 29 minutes, but the fighting isn't as good as in my video? Would my video stay on the page?
Ok, let's assume that each fight in his video is .5 seconds slower than in my video for each enemy in the room, for example in a room with 6 enemies it would take him 3 more seconds to kill all the enemies. Let's also assume that he uses a much better route than in my video and also uses Up+A, and ends up with a time of 29:29. Which video would you keep on the page?
Ramzi wrote:
Michael Fried told me he isn't going to make another video, because it took him way too long to make the first. I also feel the same way.
Michael, if you still wanted to do the Zelda run, then you can go ahead, no big deal. I have some other projects that I wanted to work on. Doing the Zelda run would mean that I would have to push them to the side again.