I wouldn't right it off too fast without some calculations and seeing how many bombs it usually takes. I know people thought I was insane when I said bomb hovering 15+ times to get into spirit would be faster than spending 5 minutes on bean, and they said the same reasoning, but now that's standard as people wised up and actually tested it. It really should at least be testing and some numbers crunched, takes like 5 minutes.
You wouldn't need to replace all the 20 you get because you could do less super slides, a lot of them only save 4-10s.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
here's the current WR speedrun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5GvPPBGKFw
obviously a TAS would use TAS movement techniques. probably use tektite hovering instead of using lon lon ranch. would probably RBA cojiro and manipulate a ton of bomb drops before DC so they could hover to the head instead of going through the dungeon.
How many bomb drops would you need? That seems like a plausible RTS strat even, since it takes 2:40 to go through and get bomb bag and light eyes. If you could get up with 10 or less bombs that'd have to be faster than 2:40. You could also use a bomb flower too. And maybe do some SSs to get to DC.
We still need to figure out how much tektite would save if any. I think the RTS is almost to the point where it should go for tektite if it wants to go faster.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
So you want to use an emulator glitch to pull off a trick not possible on the original hardware? I'd half wager it would be rejected on that basis, much like the original super mario land 2 glitched tas, regardless of console category.
The difference with this case and the SML2 case is that the SML2 could not be performed on any version of the game. Here, it can be performed on the Wii or GC version which what we would publish the run under if we did publish it.
And no, we want to use a emulation accuracy to use a glitch which can be performed on the original hardware, that being the Wii or GC.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Assuming we want such a run published at all.
Hophoolio wrote:
Also I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Waffle is just trolling.
Oh, I think it's pretty obvious he's not.
I suppose there are maybe a couple that don't want to see stick on B ever, even if it is faster.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
in my opinion, that VC can't/can run N64 games is not the best arguement, neither is the texture diffrences. The biggest arguement is that VC actually need to be inside a wii, or a wii emulator. The same goes for the N64 emulator inside the GC. These emulators use other ways of saving the game and got other inputs. Also I'm not sure about the timing rules for a Zelda OoT run on VC, but I would guess it starts when you turn on the wii, not when you start Zelda OoT in the VC emulator. IIRC, you can still have some Wii inputs like going back to the Wii homepage while playing on VC.
Sorry, but I can't see how you can ignore the fact that you actually need the VC to be inside a Wii emulator(or the parts you need to be able to emulate of the Wii emulator).
Also I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Waffle is just trolling.
Right, which is why I proposed putting inside a Windows emulator labeled a Wii emulator, or having Dolphin call Mupen when it emulates N64 roms. Standard rules for RTS run never use see the Wii screens, ever, they are only concerned with the N64 emulation, which I think TAS community should follow suit.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
which is what EVERYONE wants the run to published under
That's rather presumptuous.
Well I haven't seen a single person arguing that a stick on B run should be published under N64, and I've been following every post, so I think it's accurate.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm not calling a full fledged VC emulator, I'm calling a VC emulator that only supports N64 roms, which it seems to do a better job of emulator than it does an N64 because it's a has memory which allows for stick on B like the VC does.
Does a real N64 allow stick on b?
No, the N64 component of the VC emulator does though, which is what EVERYONE wants a stick on B run to published under, but there is opposition that wants the runner to use a more cumbersome emulator within an emulator for reasons of semantics.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Yes, there are more similarities than not only running N64 ROMs, it also it's get the right amount of memory so stick on B functions similar, thanks for pointing that out.
You mean Mupen and the VC both share a single emulation inaccuracy in a single game? Holy shit call me converted, let's label it as a VC emulator right now!
Spider-Waffle wrote:
This is all semantics, that's my point, we are forcing people to use an undesirable solution because of semantics.
We aren't forcing people to do anything. If they choose not to TAS Wii/GC games because the emulator needs a powerful computer to run, that's their decision. This is not semantics. Look the word up.
You are forcing them to if they want to publish their run here. It's semantics that some peopole call Mupen and N64 emulator and that only and others call it a VC emulator that only emulates the N64 component of VC as well.
So Far the only non-semantical argument I've seen for requiring Dolphin to be used is that The N64 component of the VC replaces the moon symbols with the gerudo symbol on the fly. I don't even know if this texture would be seen in this run, this wouldn't be the first time textural emulation inaccuracies have been accepted though, Goldeneye did as well.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
No, no it can't. It shares a feature with the VC in that it can emulate N64 ROMs. It cannot emulate any part of the VC itself. This should not be difficult to understand.
I'm not calling Mupen a full fledged VC emulator, I'm calling a VC emulator that only supports N64 roms, which it seems to do a better job of emulator than it does an N64 because it's a has memory which allows for stick on B like the VC does.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
No. It's a fact. It's not semantics that a car is not a bike. It's not semantics that a shirt is not a pair of trousers. It's not semantics that a keyboard is not a mouse. Why would it be semantics that Mupen is an N64 emulator and not a VC emulator?
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
Fun fact: Mupen doesn't emulate the N64 component of the VC in a very visible way. The N64 component of the VC replaces the moon symbols with the gerudo symbol on the fly. The ROM itself is unchanged, unlike the Gamecube version.
Okay, so we could add a texture swap to Mupen keep that accurate.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Mupen doesn't emulate the VC. At all. It never will. The similarities between Mupen and the VC end beyond being able to run N64 ROMs.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
It's not stupid because the Wii emulator we have is undesirable to TAS with because it's slow and my solution would be more desirable to TAS with and be faster, it's a smart idea.
THIS is semantics. This is you arguing for something stupid because you don't like using Dolphin because it requires a powerful computer. It is not a smart idea.
Yes, there are more similarities than not only running N64 ROMs, it also it's get the right amount of memory so stick on B functions similar, thanks for pointing that out.
This is all semantics, that's my point, we are forcing people to use an undesirable solution because of semantics.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
No. It's a fact. It's not semantics that a car is not a bike. It's not semantics that a shirt is not a pair of trousers. It's not semantics that a keyboard is not a mouse. Why would it be semantics that Mupen is an N64 emulator and not a VC emulator?
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Why do your questions need answering?
Okay, I'll answer them.
1.) No, that would be stupid because we already have a Wii emulator, we don't have a Windows emulator and writing a program that only emulates one program inside of a console is a stupid idea.
2.) You don't need to combine mupen into dolphin to emulate VC games because dolphin already emulates the VC by itself.
It's not stupid because the Wii emulator we have is undesirable to TAS with because it's slow and my solution would be more desirable to TAS with and be faster, it's a smart idea.
Dolphin emulates the VC slowly, Mupen does it better, that's why you need to do it.
And whether or an alternative emulator exist has never been grounds for not accepting a different emulator if it has benefits over the existing one, which we clearly have here.
So you've providing no valid reasons to reject the emulators I've proposed as solutions.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
How about we just stop trying to shoehorn Mupen into doing things it's not designed to do and instead use the emulator that IS designed to do these things?
That doesn't answer my quesions, and to answer your question, because it much more desirable to use Mupen to make a TAS than Dolphin, and the only difference is semantics.
Edit:
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Then it's not emulating a console and it wouldn't be accepted here. The VC is not a console. It's an emulator.
If say, you were running VC under a Wii emulator, say... Dolphin, then sure. Go nuts.
You know, like people have been saying this entire time.
Okay, so what if you Turn a Windows emulator into a Wii emulator which only tries to emulate the VC coponent of the Wii, then run the Mupen based VC emulator inside the Wii emulator?
Or what if you combine Mupen into Dolphin So Dolphin Calls on Mupen when you emulate the N64 games in the VC in Wii using Dolphin?
I'm going to continue along this line until you admit this is a debate over semantics.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
The only reason you Mupen does, and cannot emulate a Wii/GC/VC version is semantical. So what if I if set out to create a Wii/GC/VC emulator, borrow code from Mupen to do this, and then publish it as a Wii/GC/VC emulator with limitation is what it can emulate?
At what point can you accept that a emulator is a Wii/GC/VC emulator, what ultimately matters and what does it come down? I think that is only piece we're not on agreement here. We straighten that out and we can solve this debate.
Generally something is labelled as a console emulator when it properly emulates the console it's trying to emulate.
This should not be hard to understand and quite frankly it kind of saddens me that I had to say this as though it wasn't obvious.
So what if it's a VC emulator that only tries to emulate N64/GC emulation of the VC? Then it's a VC emulator that's emulating what it tries to emulate.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
This isn't a minor inaccuracy, and it is not unavoidable.
I think this is what you're not getting or pretending to not recognize, For a Wii/GC/VC publication, which is what we want to make, this is an ACCURACY, not an inaccuracy.
It's not about semantics. Being able to use a B stick without the game crashing is an emulation glitch. Actually doing so, is cheating. Mupen does not, and cannot emulate the wii version, and pretending it can is a lie.
The only reason you say Mupen does not, and cannot emulate a Wii/GC/VC version is semantical. So what if I if set out to create a Wii/GC/VC emulator, borrow code from Mupen to do this, and then publish it as a Wii/GC/VC emulator with limitation in what it can emulate?
At what point can you accept that a emulator is a Wii/GC/VC emulator, what ultimately matters and what does it come down? I think that is only piece we're not on agreement here. We straighten that out and we can solve this debate.
I think they wanted the debate to be here where it belongs and not a game thread where it clutters it up off-topic.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
The argument is basically that mupen behaves similar (but not the same) as a different version of the game, so they want to use it instead of dolphin, even though the only reason it works is because of an inaccurate emulation. They think this is justified for the sole reason of mupen being more convenient to tas in than dolphin.
That's the same straw-man you used repeatedly in the OoT thread, it's very misleading and fallacious.
What is a emulation inaccuracy for N64 is actually an accuracy for Wii or GC version, so it's emulated what we're trying to emulate properly and is good emulation. We think this is justified because as far we as know this just as accurate if not a better emulation of the Wii or GC version as what Dolphin provides. The Convenience has nothing to do with this justification, the convenience has to do with the cost/reward analysis. There comes a point where very minor inaccuracies have to be accepted just so we can get runs up here, which is the only why any runs have every been accepted here, not because they were emulated perfectly, but because cost/reward was such that it was worth accepting their emulation inaccuracies.
And uses Mupen so far wouldn't be extra cost of more emulation inaccuracies because we haven't objectively analysed the emulation accurateness of both emulators and there's not a reason to believe that one is more accurate than the other. Uses Arcum's razors the simplest and most obvious answer is just use Mupen and publish it as a Wii emulation, there's great benefit to go this route and no cost.
Rename Mupen to VC/GC/Wii emulator if you care that much other semantics, and publish the code as a emulator that was trying to be a VC/GC/Wii emulator.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
What emulators 'try' to do is self-evident. They emulate consoles. At their basest value, TASes are meant to be reproductions of what would happen if a certain sequence of commands was entered into a console.
Mupen 'tries' to emulate a Nintendo 64. It does not, in any way shape or form, try to emulate a Gamecube, a Wii, the virtual console emulator or anything other than a Nintendo 64. There is nothing subjective or arbitrary about that. It's a Nintendo 64 emulator. Trying to debate the semantics surrounding this is pointless. >_>
So if someone "Tried" to make a VC GC emulator and happened to write the exact same code as mupen, called it VC2000 and everything we started using that here, then that'd be okay? So it doesn't matter at all what the emulator actually do, only what it was trying to do?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
If it properly emulates it, then sure, why not?
But it's not going to.
So what's constitutes a proper emulation? Because you could say the same about Dolphin. It seems very subjective and arbitrary.
It has to at least try to emulate it, instead of just emulating something completely different instead.
How do you decide if "tries" to emulate it? That seems very subjective and arbitrary. So basically this comes down to what the emulators "Try" to emulate? Give me a break, so we're going to throw fit and get a values up in a bunch over what we think a an emulator tries to emulate, but not what it actually does?
How about this, whoever makes the run does w/e tf they want. Then a niche group consisting of rog, Adle, and a few others like can go to town a grand hearing on emulators are "trying" to do. That's ultimately what's going to happen. We wouldn't do something hardware couldn't because of what we thought emulators were trying to do would we, no, that would be worse than discouraging people from ever making any runs in the first place...
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
If it properly emulates it, then sure, why not?
But it's not going to.
So what's constitutes a proper emulation? Because you could say the same about Dolphin. It seems very subjective and arbitrary.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Mupen is not a "VC emulator", stop saying that. Usually it's a good idea to stop trying to trick people with clever wordsmithing when people have already called your bullshit.
A VC emulator is specifically not what you want. A VC emulator would be running an n64 emulator inside a wii emulator. Remember? Isn't that what you wanted to avoid doing?
Okay, So I'll rename A windows emulator Wiiemu2000, and Mupen to VC2000, and then run VC2000 inside of Wiiemu2000. So I have a Wii emulator emulating VC emulating N64, which would just as accurate as dolphin, the same situation with the real Wii, and not doing any glitches that the Wii doesn't do. Seems like a winner to me, that's what you want right?
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
For we all we know Mupen is a more accurate VC emulator than Dolphin. None the of emulators used to make any of the videos here are completely accurate and we'll never know all the differences and we can't definitively and objectively quantify how much better one emulator emulates the actual console over another. It's a very gray area we've just been trying to do the best we can. I don't see how using Mupen as a VC emulator is any different than what we've always done and always will do.
Imagine if Mupen was created as a VC emulator, still being the exact same code, I don't think we'd ever be having this debate, Mupen and Dolphin very well could have been switched.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
Why would that matter, it's not a N64 emulator, it's a VC emulator
Ok, hold up. Stop. VC is not a console. VC stands for virtual console, which is the name of nintendo's n64 emulator. If you meant something else by VC, you need to clarify. If not, then yes it is an n64 emulator.
A VC emulator would be an emulator that runs nintendo's emulator inside another emulator. For example, dolphin is a "VC" emulator.
Why would a VC emulator have to run VC inside of another emulator, that sounds more like a Wii emulator. For example a N64 emulator doesn't nest emulators, an emulator of an emulator can be one emulator.
How important is it that we add a layer of emulation to upload to "can be played on original hardware" and is it worth the cost?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
Why would that matter, it's not a N64 emulator, it's a VC emulator
And being outfitted for all our TASing needs implies it could run on a standard computer.
If you think it's too unlikely doesn't matter, it's still a relevant question to what should be accepted on this site. Must you require me to say "an enthusiast group makes it and opens the source" or do you just want to avoid intelligent debate altogether?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
