I guess I can make that too if you want. I thought this is what you were saying. It's a good thread none the less, I can't see why you complain or fill it with extraneous information.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
These are the values of TASvideos that we are trying to uphold:
"The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware."
While nearly every run published here fails this in technical sense, they come pretty close. I feel a run done on Mupen, published as VC or GC, does this as close as we can with our current emulators. It will give us series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware, that hardware being the VC or GC.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and outfitted with all the TAS functionality possible and said "here, this should help you guys make some TASes", should be allow it? Why or why not?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
What you want and what the site stands for are apparently two completely different things. ;p
What exactly does the site stand for? No one's answered that.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Okay guys, I don't see how this is so complicated. OoT N64 and OoT VC are different games (shoutouts to angerfist). The sole difference between them is not just stick on B (among other things, there are lag, loading time, and slight control differences). Thus modifying mupen to allow stick on B would not even be attempting to "play VC on an easier emulator" it would be playing your own creation. If you want to do that and call it an OoT hack, go ahead, but that -would not be Ocarina of Time-, N64 version or VC version.
Right, but by that logic No game here is it's official console version because there are differences in emulator and console for every emulator, everyone run is a hack then. Mupen is the closest thing we got now.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Why are you belaboring the quesion? What values are you trying to upload by providing such opposition to stick on B? How are you serving the community?
For the same reason i would argue against hacking a rom to instantly reach the credits. For the same reason i would argue against abusing any other emulation glitch that does not work on the original console. You want to do something that is 100% impossible on an n64, and i have a problem with that.
I can understand and respect that. But do you get that on VC and maybe GC actual hardware people use this in their RTSes? We're not trying to make a N64 TAS or publish a run as a N64 run, we're trying to make TAS of something people are already making RTS for, mupen can act as an emulator for such hardware, we want to make a run like the RTS and publish it under the same console category as the RTS. Currently Mupen is the best option to do this. No one here wants to make a N64 run that does stuff the N64 can't do. I think everyone here wants to see a GC/VC run like the RTS but TASed. We are trying to make that happen. Blinding upload values without realizing the actual consequences or what is actualy going to be done is not helping that happen.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It depends. Opinions are funny like that. Subjective matter generally is.
Depends on what? Also, my point isn't one of subjectivity, if it's of utilitarian society values. Our society functions largely on maximizing utility, and especially for certain things, weight of opinions is one of these. To maximize utility we should give most weight to the most informed opinions. Just like we should give the best flutes to the best flute players.
... right. This is a website about video games (look up what games are for, btw), not a utilitarian society. Entertainment is just as important as speed. (in my opinion) Since entertainment is entirely subjective based on who you ask because not everyone likes the same thing...
You get the idea. I hope.
Why shouldn't we uphold utilitarian values? Even something like Farmville does to be more successful.
Figure Skating a is a game too, it weights people's opinion according to how informed the opinion is, this maximizes utility.
So by that logic then any pile should be accepted as long enough people find it entertaining. So if someone wants their TAS to be accepted they just need to get enough people who think it's entertaining to vote, no matter how much of a disgrace to this site and the contributors their TAS is. And the fact that it says "goal fastest real time" is of no importance.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and said here, this should you guys make some TASes, we wouldn't allow runs that used it here?
Nintendo's n64 emulator doesn't have rerecording support, or even save states, so i'm not sure how that would even work.
Read the Edited post, suppose it they added that?
Why are you belaboring the quesion? What values are you trying to upload by providing such opposition to stick on B? How are you serving the community?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Quote:
Can't VC runs (not Wii) be accepted on this site? Why shouldn't they be?
When "VC" is defined as a rom dump that intentionally removes all parts of the rom that make it more difficult to tas? And then it abuses poor emulation in the name of being more accurate? No.
Your first question is a clause, I don't get it.
Your next question isn't a question, but I think a attempt to connect an emulation accuracy with abusing poor emulation from a different console and straw manning the argument.
So you answer No, are you the person who decides this or are you just speaking from the impression you have a dis-proportionally entitled opinion?
If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and outfitted with all the TAS functionality possible and said "here, this should help you guys make some TASes", we wouldn't allow runs that used it here? If so, why not?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It depends. Opinions are funny like that. Subjective matter generally is.
Depends on what? Also, my point isn't one of subjectivity, if it's of utilitarian society values. Our society functions largely on maximizing utility, and especially for certain things, weight of opinions is one of these. To maximize utility we should give most weight to the most informed opinions. Just like we should give the best flutes to the best flute players.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
If it works on GC and VC then why can't we put Mupen in a different skin as a GC or VC emulator if it is accurately functioning as one? Hell it might even be more accurate than dolphin.
Can't VC runs (not Wii) be accepted on this site? Why shouldn't they be?
What mission statements are we trying to uphold here exactly anyway? Why are we trying to uphold it, and is it worth upholding it every situation no matter the cost?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
You may know more about OoT than I do, but your opinion on a TAS of it is no more important than mine.
I can't see how his opinion wouldn't be more important. That's why we pick gurus on subject they're judging for judges whenever we can all throughout human society (I'm sure some animal societies too)
You mean to say if 11 people from an amazon tribe where shown the TAS and asked if they liked it and all said no, because it wasn't rainforesty enough, and 10 people who were gurus on such TAS all agreed it was the greatest TAS ever made, then we should not accept it because no one person's opinions matters more than another's with respect to accurate and relivent judging?
Is your opinion on what score a figure skater should get just as important as the figuring skating judges' opinions?
Is your opinion on economic policy just as important as Obama's or a world leading economist?
Is your opinion on academy awards just as important as a professional movie critics?
Is your opinion Video game movies just as important as a professional and video game movie critic?
Is your opinion on whether a TAS should be accepted just as important as someone is a guru on such TAS?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Spider-Waffle wrote:
So what's the difference between a emulator named dolphin running "N64 1.2" and an emulator name mupen running "N64 1.2"? Could we just make a copy of mupen and rename it "dolphinv2" a VC emulator that only works on N64 VC roms?
The difference here is one of how official the bug is. Mupen is not official. Any behavioral differences between it and a real Nintendo 64 are bugs, and any run that relies on those behavioral differences cannot be published as it would be cheating.
It's an emulation bug if it's being used as a N64 emulator, but if it's being used a VC emulator then it's an accurate emulator.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
What exactly is the difference between the N64 rom and the type of rom a VC runs?
The OoT VC ROM is N64 1.2 (the exact same ROM), run in a custom packaged emulator that does some texture replacements on the fly iirc. It's not the ROM that's different for stick on B, it's the emulator.
So what's the difference between a emulator named dolphin running "N64 1.2" and an emulator name mupen running "N64 1.2"? Could we just make a copy of mupen and rename it "dolphinv2" a VC emulator that only works on N64 VC roms?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It proves it's possible unless he cheated. I'm asking if you think that's the case.
I think it's very possible that he took some screws out and filed down the nub on the D-pad, this takes 5 minutes and was a very common mod among the SNES mario kart community. Also, I'm willing to wager that wasn't his first time attempting this on that controller, so through cyclic fatigue the plastic in D-pad could be pushed beyond it's elastic region and into plastic deformation, ending up with a warped D-pad that's very possible to press left+right.
Even if you get the benefit of the doubt for SNES, there's still plenty more consoles to go which TASvideos has published up+down for.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I know the game and the console sans-controllers accepts the inputs, my point was that hardware does not allow it. Yes, It might be possible with enough force to bend certain controllers without breaking them. I know the NES can be done. I didn't think the SNES could be without breaking the D-pad, His D-pad I'm guessing is warped now after many attempts so it can be done.
It's still somewhat of a hairy area whether the hardware allows up+down, I suppose NES and SNES might, not sure about the others though.
I guess you guys were just concerned with weather something can be done on the console with free range of input device, I had assumed you meant the physical hardware could do it also.
So I'm guessing the mission statement of TASvideos has the clause "what is possible on actual console without regard to input device" or "free range of input device" which is fine and I don't really care one way or the other, I just want to make sure whatever rule were jumping through hoops to uphold isn't being broken left and right on other games/emulators.
So to try so solve the problem, could we just make a mod for mupen so it can run slightly modded N64 roms that the VC runs, and the make it a VC emulator? It's kind of silly to go this trouble of semantics, but I just it's important to some people. Not sure what those people's opinions relevant contributions are... (yes I think in the grand scheme what ultimately serves the community and the viewers best is recognizing what ultimately matters is the opinions of the relevant contributors, if the contributors get the shaft, everyone gets shafted)
What exactly is the difference between the N64 rom and the type of rom a VC runs?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm saying you can't tell anything from that video, it proves nothing.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
You can't tell if he modded his controller from that.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Master Quest? I thought we all unspokenly agreed to pretend that didn't exist...
So the problem is we just need a better emulator that can run VC roms
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
The electrical hardware might allow it, but the physical hardware does not. We are doing something which is physically impossible I can't be done on the real hardware.
VC isn't an official Nintendo release? And why does that matter anyway? If the RTS that use VC are so popular and all the runners use that, why shouldn't TAS be able to as well. We run hacked roms on this site which aren't official Nintendo releases which the community and contributors want to see, why is this different? Why does it have to be run on Dolphin, why can't it use a different VC emulator?
Why is it okay for some things to not be official and impossible and others not? What determines that? Why don't the community and contributors get to decisions catered to help them contribute. We all want to see a VC run, people willing to make it want to a VC run, why don't we do w/e we can to let this happen. Why are we road blocking our on community and contributors, what do we stand to gain by doing that and is it worth it?
It's looking to me like this run is just going to get done on Mupen and stick on B and won't be submitted to TASvideos, it's really not worth it. What TASvideos stands to gain by not hosting the run really isn't much.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Where is this video? I've know you can have barely force the NES controller to do up+down, but I've yet to see it done in any sort of practical manner. That's the only original controller I know that can do up+down without breaking the controller. If you've got proof of this I'd love to see it.
I know the GE speedruns were well documented with emulation differences and were accepted.
Nevertheless, the single entity which holds the ultimate power here has said he think this glitch should not be allowed no matter what emulator you use, VC or GCN. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only that thinks that's a ridiculous extremist viewpoint. Basically the RTS of the game will be faster and use better strategies then. I don't know who is served by that decision, but clearly the runners and the viewers don't/won't like it. Why would I want to watch a slower TAS which uses inferior strategies when I watch a faster RTS nonetheless which is better.
Since all the emulators don't exactly emulate anything perfectly, what the rule that decides which emulator can be used to run which roms? If I'm not mistaken a VC emulator would run NES, SNES, N64, ect roms. So why can't Mupen be renamed and distributed as a VC emulator? What's to stop that and who's the know the difference? Couldn't everyone go home happy with that?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Actually, I'm starting to see slowking's point, but not in a way that will make him happy. If the VC 'version' really is just the OoT rom being emulated, then Deku stick on B should just be banned, outright. It is an emulation error. Does it matter if the emulation error is inside the Wii, which is also being emulated by dolphin?
Something seems very fundamentally wrong to me to ban something which can be done on multiple consoles, yet things like up+down are allowed. I can't see the consistency here, what is the mission statement of TASvideos, are these view points ones which were agreed upon by the consensus of the community?
What was great about this site back when Bisqwit ran it was that he listened what each community for each game and emulator wanted to be done and catered the decisions and policies to keep the community and most importantly the contributors happy.
When you start run things with a dictatorship and ultimate everything is based of the viewpoints and values of that one individual, ban major contributors and rule against what valuable, well respected community members want, you end up losing what was once so great. You get a shit-storm mess like lybia, people defect and make their own websites, the community gets split-up, grudges are held, and ultimately the community and the viewers suffer.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Console runners do not use stick on B on their N64, because in fact, it's not possible.
No console runners do runs on N64 anymore, so that's somewhat of a moot point which does not counter the point that stick on B is possible on console.
Also no one has responded to my post about what the official rule on emulation differences is. Everyone refers to this rule, but what exactly is it? Because almost all of the runs on this site take advantage of emulation differences. Where is the line drawn?
Also Mupen isn't an accurate N64 emulator for any N64 game and does have attributes of the emulator which are closer to VC than N64, at what point can you take the open source code for Mupen and rename and distribute it as a VC emulator? It seems like a lot of people are creating a big fuss over rules I see no official documentation for and semantics of emulator names. I can't see any reason why all this can't be directed the same way to the NES games which can't be played back on the NES.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
How are emulation differences in console and emulator handled anyway? Because I know there is a bunch for GE and PD, but those runs are never questioned. If you get right down to it, almost none of the runs done here can be done on the actual console, there's frame differences everywhere, hardly any of the NES (yes the simplest and most iterated emulator) TASes could be played back on the actual console, so those had emulation differences which could have given the runs slight advantages too by doing things which the actual console can't do.
Where is the line drawn and what is the clear rule for this? It seems like it's just what what some admin's arbitrary discretion is and what the said admin knows about the game and differences if any.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
