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For that number of frames it seems that more stats should be a big win. Especially early on. In Final Fantasy 1 I added a lot more than that to pump stats on the first couple levels. But after that I just went as fast as I could. Unless you have the whole thing planned out, it's impossible to tell. Since this is still coming together, it's probably best to keep track of how high your stats could be. If there's ever a question about whether higher stats would cut down a boss fight or something then you can hack a savestate and try it out. But for a few frames here and there, if it saves one attack in one fight then it is going to be a win.
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Watched this run and was very impressed. The cooking clearly doesn't add much time overall, but it is boring to watch them run around the kitchen. One thing though, is it necessary to go to wildcat's twice? Can you get chopchop the same time you go to get the ring? Looking forward to seeing this done all the way. In my opinion this game has one of the best RPG storylines and a lot of the plot elements are incredibly profound.
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Ah, the memories. Although sometimes I regret giving up on this game, in the end it's just more trouble than I have patience for. I'd vote yes again on this one mostly to get a published run. I'm pretty sure some spots used for leveling aren't optimal, but most of the action has been pretty well optimized. Unfortunately, because of lag and very strange random factors in enemy spawning and movement, you can spend A LOT of time tweaking fights. It's also not something where a bot works very well. tmont did a great job overall. So yes from me until some day when I get the nerve to obsolete it myself! Also, I don't really care whether it obsoletes the wild warp run or goes alongside it. If it obsoletes that one there will need to be a comment anyway because it is going to look funny to have a longer run obsoleting a shorter one.
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If you haven't done this already, you should play through each boss battle with different swords to see how much difference it actually makes. Then play through the areas where you get the swords with and without getting them to see how long it takes to get. Compare the frame counts to get your answer. You don't do much fighting except to move enemies out of your way so I don't see any other differences. Seems to me that 3 is probably the right number of swords, but it could be 2. You need battle sword and devil eye for sure. Kaiser or wing will definitely speed up the final battles, but you should figure out the exact tradeoffs. I'd guess Kaiser is a better choice as wing would not be powered up before Eborsisk. Plus you need to talk to two people instead of one to get it powered up. But I forget if it's mandatory to talk to the Wing clan. That could tip things. I guess the main point is this: Don't just guess, do the math and figure it out. If it's close then you probably have to play it both ways to know for sure.
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Congratulations on completing a pretty decent full run through this game! But with that said, I have to agree with others that you don't need to pick up so many swords. There's no doubt many other things here and there that can tweak out some frames. A lot of the same problems happen in other action RPGs. The first one that comes to mind is Crystalis, which I spent a lot of time on and eventually gave up on. Compared to Willow it is shorter with more glitches, more variety, faster action and an awesome soundtrack. But for some reason it's considered a terrible game for TAS. I'll vote yes despite the improvability as I enjoyed watching this old favorite. I think that two years or so ago this would have been accepted right away. But the quality standards are so high now that this is probably destined for the grue.
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Absolutely badass! I highly applaud your commitment.
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Awesome, this is starting to look like a real TAS! I like the overall plan and with a little more work on the dungeon battles it will be fairly watchable. The long wait by Vesper seemed out of place but it looks like you have some plans for that. I'll be looking forward to seeing the full version.
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You're bad! This is great, I was hoping someone would do this sometime.
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Usually when the results only change on different actions it means that each action uses the RNG a different number of times. But the RNG doesn't change with time or button presses. So if the action you change is the last one in the round then there wouldn't be any change. It might be worth figuring out what you can do to change your luck. Unfortunately, this makes RPGs more difficult to TAS, but it's usually still possible. Dragon Warrior 3 has a similar RNG system but with a little work it was possible to make a very beautiful TAS.
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I think it's generally considered a glitch that BANE works on everything. I've looked at the code that handles this. Internally, there's a flag that represents immunity. But rather than actually make it impossible to work, it sets a threshold to zero. So a roll of zero actually succeeds. There are three numbers in the randomization table that can make this work: two zeroes and a one that gets rounded to zero in some of the math. So that's how there's a 3/256 chance to succeed even when the monster is immune. Dark status is also glitched but it's not that big a deal. Some of the encounter-free step tricks might be arguable as glitches too.
Post subject: Gaming or other geek culture at your wedding
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I'm getting married in about a month. I think a lot of people on this site are around marriage age and I was curious if anyone else has stories about working gaming or other geek culture into a wedding. So obviously I am a total gaming geek. If you are familiar with my TAS work, you might know that I am a bit of a Square-Enix Fanboy. The bride is a prolific fanfic writer and has a huge collection of manga and anime. We've been together for over three years and have pulled each other into those worlds a bit. So it's only natural to find some way to get that into the whole process. But the ceremony is mostly traditional American and will be attended mostly by older family and family friends so we can't go too overboard. Anyway, I was actually able to work gaming into the proposal! I presented a blue feather a la Harvest Moon. This worked out very well as it allowed me to give something physical but shop for the ring together. I requested that we pick our first dance song from a Final Fantasy soundtrack. This was fine with the bride as FF actually has a lot of danceable music. We have some experience with several ballroom styles and won't be just standing around. We settled on "1000 Words" from Final Fantasy X-2. I know it's not by Uematsu, but we like the J-Pop energy. Another Japanese import item is in the decorations. We completed 1000 origami cranes and we're going to string them up around the room as part of the decorations for the reception. I'm actually fairly skilled with origami so getting married was a great excuse to do this.
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The shrine of humility is a good idea for maxing valor. If strong enough at that point the enemies aren't hard. But it's still a limiting factor. Especially because if we can get valor quickly we could use the skull to plow through the dungeons. I don't think shrine of humility will be fast enough to allow that. Ok, I zipped through your run. Very interesting. It looks like with one person there are 1-3 enemies in random groups but with two you get 2-6. So if you could always manipulate only 2 then it's all right to have multiple people. Otherwise I think it's crazy to have two people for most of the game. In general, I believe the formula for number of enemies is N to 3*N where N is number of people in your party. Need to figure out more about this. The dungeon fights in rooms with lots of tough enemies take a lot of time and are very painful. To really rub it in, you don't get valor. But you can escape without losing anything. Here's my idea for a solo mage run: Start at Moonglow. Steal herbs and maybe chests in Moonglow. Moongate to Britain. Walk to Minoc and get the rune. Walk to Vesper. If there's not enough gold to get the key, steal more chests. This would be a great time to get random battles in to get more gold. Now walk or gate to Trinsic. If possible get the paladin and sell his stuff for 1000 gold. Farm the 10 chests repeatedly until there's enough for the wand, or close to it. Go back to Britain. [ditch the paladin if he joined] Get the rune, learn tremor and max out with the reaper. Go to hythloth and the balloon. Take the balloon to everywhere it's necessary to fly. That means Cove and Serpent's spine, but maybe some other locations on the way. Hit Buccaneer's den too, refreshing the herb collection and picking up mandrake. Get the wand too. Now get back to Moonglow somehow to learn the spells. This might also be a good time to grab book of truth. After this we can assault the dungeons much more easily and not worry about side paths for gold. At some point after getting 400 exp, use death-warp to Lord British and get the levelup. Level 5 as in the test run is a waste as it makes the random battles harder. After getting all the keys, grab whatever other runes and items are needed and meditate for avatarhood. Eventually it will be necessary to get a ship and sail to the last few: the bell, horn and shrine of humility. There use the effect to fight enough enemies to pad out valor. Visit shrine of valor last. Then sail to abyss and finish up.
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Very interesting. I've played through this remake but don't know it nearly as well as the original, so I can't give you much specific advice. It looks like you are doing well so far though. I'm eager to see how this party fares as you get further on. The monk is an interesting choice given that his power is more closely tied to his level than other characters and you will only be fighting bosses. Also, I forget how the magic works, but I thought that you still need higher levels to get the higher level magic. I suggest you plan out gold and experience so you know what you can get. With the ability to move faster and avoid random battles you could get much more treasure from the dungeons and either sell or equip it. I know that unlike the original, weapons that are strong against certain monster types actually work properly and might be useful. But then again maybe not considering your party. Good luck!
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Looks like you figured out the dungeon treasure respawning. Indeed, you need to either exit the dungeon to the outer world or go into the key altar room. That makes it much more difficult to get treasure from dungeons. Also, getting to the treasure usually involves getting past some powerful rooms of enemies. If you get to the bottom of shame, there's only one room of enemies between the key altar and the treasure. Unfortunately, it's packed with dragons and hydras, the toughest enemies in the game. One thing to consider is that if you could put them to sleep you could just walk by. Then 22 chests! If this is possible, we could buy all our herbs legitimately, saving tons of time building virtue. I believe you have honor and sacrifice switched. This is true in some of your other posts as well. Winning a battle raises valor and honor by one point each. So the big challenges are still valor, compassion and sacrifice, all of which have only one way to get raised. If you do the math, that means we need to give blood 9 times, give to beggars 10 times and win 49 random battles. The blood and beggars may not be bad if we can figure out a good way to reset the flag that lets things work again. Power cycle does NOT work but moongates seem to have an effect. Also, you talked about touching the orbs in destard to raise MP. But they only give strength and I believe you need to raise int to get more mp. That means you need to be in deceit, wrong, shame or hythloth. When you get people to join it looks like they have some virtue requirement. But there's also a limit by your level. The number of people that will join you is the same as your level. So at level 4 you can get a full party of 4. It's time to reveal how this game randomizes things. There is a type of linear feedback shift register in $0036 to $0039. $0036 is the value that's actually used for things like damage and gold from chests. So that's what you want to memwatch. However, it always seems to do an update before getting the random value so it's hard to tell from it. When you are walking around, the LFSR cycles once a frame. But when the menu comes up it stops. Unfortunately, the menu comes up on a 16 frame rule which means that we can only effectively change luck every 16 frames. In battle it doesn't change at all except when a value is used for something. This is bad, it means that the level of luck manipulation possible is similar to Final Fantasy rather than Dragon Warrior. So don't assume that you can make the enemy miss every time or do much of anything with a low probability. But we should be able to manipulate well enough to make sure the first round of tremor takes out a larger number. When you enter the menu to open up a chest, look at $0036. Take that value and multiply by 2. Subtract 256 if it overflows. Take the remainder after dividing by 99 and add 1 or 2. That's how much gold you get. Because it's a shift register, it's hard to predict at a glance how your luck will change after a certain number of frames. But it's not difficult to do programmatically. edit: Here is how the timers work that prevent you from doing good things repeatedly too fast to get virtue: When you do one of these timed things, it starts a counter value in one of the memory bytes around $68E0 to $680F. If you memwatch this, it becomes clear how to turn this to our advantage - the counter starts out at 16 and goes down one every step in the outer world. At 0 you can do whatever it was preventing you from doing. Note that this memory location is in the WRAM, the savegame battery, so saving and power cycling will not affect it. Anyway, this helps get compassion and sacrifice faster. All you need to do is leave town and walk 16 steps. It's still annoying but this does shrink the bounds on the problem. Now we just need a better way to build valor... Here are some counter locations: -Beggar - 68e3 -Sell weapon or armor - 68ea -Buy herb - 68eb -Give blood - 68ec -Talk to Hawkwind - 68e2 As you noticed, some things don't have any restraint. In particular, we have the reaper in Lord British's Castle that gives 5 to justice, honor, spirituality and humility and the flame in Yew that gives 6 honesty. So for these five, the answer is clearly to use those. Those five virtues cover the penalties for selling weapons at higher price, shorting the herb seller and even opening chests in towns and castles. So it seems that there's no reason not to go crazy with all of those early on. There is a ghost in Jhelom near the rune of Valor that gives you 5 Compassion. However, afterwords it disappears and will never reappear. The flag that gets set for this is packed in with the spell availability flags that are set permanently.
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I agree, the key rooms would definitely be useful for dungeons. However, we need to consider all the options from getting from one stone to the next: -The exit past the stone takes you out of the dungeon. From there you can cast Gate to get back to Britain. But maybe in some cases there's reason to walk somewhere? -You could go back down to the key altar and go for another stone. -You could die, probably by touching an orb. You'd end up by Lord British and you could jump back into Hythloth. This might get you some useful stats. The effect on gold could be good or bad. Popping out of the dungeons may be good if we need to stop by towns and build up virtue. We can always get back to the key altars quickly by warping to Britain and jumping into Hythloth. Squish and Tremor are both likely useful, but I don't know if it would be great in combination. Squish damages all enemies by half and Tremor kills a random number of enemies. If we get one manipulation wish each battle then we'll probably want to use it to have tremor kill everything. Squish would probably be followed by some cleanup attacks, maybe with quick. I guess it really depends on how much MP we have too. If we get multiple party members and pump stats then we could cast multiple tremors in a row and kill all enemies. One thing I'd like to figure out about multiple party members is how they affect random battles when you leave them in the British hostel. If that cuts down the number of enemies in random battles, then it might be useful to put together a party for the dungeon part of the game and then say goodbye afterwords. As far as the Tremor flag, I'm pretty sure about it. I did a memory poke to change just that one bit and that was enough. I also wandered around enough to see it on the list after talking to him, though I had talked with others too.
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I am resurrecting this thread to reveal the results of some research. Not many definites yet, but I am starting to get some ideas. This is a run that would almost certainly have to made completely through multiple times to really figure things out. Anyway, here's the goods: -There shouldn't be a lot of random battles. The key should be obtained early, even if it means stealing from towns. The penalty for stealing is pretty low and only affects easily-raised virtues. That lets you get into hythloth and get the balloon. Then you can fly around with no random encounters. Furthermore, you can fly to cove and get gate travel! Finally, the dungeons go pretty fast when you know what you're doing. -Figured out the issues with getting Tremor. The flags that control spell availability at Spells Unlimited are single bits in $68d3 and $68d4. The lowest bit of $68d4 is tremor. Now some of the spells are revealed in pieces by multiple NPCs, but I believe that only one conversation actually sets the flag. So among the three NPCs who mention the man in black that knows tremor ......*NONE* of them sets the flag!!! The flag actually gets set when you talk to a mage in Lord British's Castle who says "Disturb me not, for I seek to end odd-order intermodulation in linear power stages." This is great because it is an easily accessible spot that doesn't even require the key. In fact, you have to go right by there to get the rune of spirituality. -Undecided whether it's better to start with paladin or mage. Paladin starts out with much more experience - 325 vs 175. This is significant because you only need 400 to reach level 4. It's necessary to get the ship eventually to get a few items and reach the final dungeon. However, in most cases, the balloon can replace the ship for transportation. This is probably even preferable as it eliminates random encounters. There are still a lot of mandatory dungeon battles, certainly enough to get the 225 exp for the mage. But there's another issue with the valor virtue that may make it preferable to do more random encounters. Mage starts out in Moonglow and so she can get herbs for magic right away and use fire to nail small fry for exp and gold. The paladin can sell his starting armor and buy a bow, then gate to Moonglow or walk to paws for herbs. Then again, the mage can put this money towards the key. -You can increase your MP through the following loop: --Enter hythloth from Britain Castle --Cast exit immediately --Re-enter the other entrance --Touch the orb two steps from that entrance. This kills you but raises all stats by 5. Paladin gets 5 MP, Mage gets 10. Didn't check druid. --You get revived by Lord British and you're in his throne room. There's no impact to your virtue or exp, but your gold gets reset to 400. --Repeat as many times as necessary. This is probably about four times for a paladin. Of course, this would work well with multiple party members. Each would touch the orb and die before the main char does so. Everyone would get high MP to tremor the crap out of all the dungeon battles. -I went through all the towns and castles and did a few other things to see how I can build the virtues. They start at 50 and you need to go up to 99. Three of them are problematic: Valor, compassion and sacrifice. --It seems that the only way to raise valor is to fight. It goes up one point every battle, along with a point of honor. Also, it does not go up in the battle rooms in the dungeons, only on random encounters. If anyone figured out a better way to raise valor, please speak up! If I am right about this then a solo run is probably best as there are going to be a lot of random battles -- at least 49. --Compassion only goes up when you give money to a beggar. It doesn't matter how much, 1 gold is just as good as 1000. You get 5 points either way, and one point of humility. The ghost near the rune of valor gives 5 points for talking to it, but it disappears afterwords. --As was noted before, sacrifice only goes up from giving blood. You get 6 points of sacrifice and 3 humility. --Other virtues are easy. Honesty, justice, honor and humility go up just by giving the right price to the item vendor. You can also sell an item for the right price. To facilitate this, you can buy a bunch of staffs and cloths early on and sell them off over the course of the run. As with other things, there's a timer, but it seems to be separate for herbs and weapons. Meditating at shrines increases spirituality. There are also several NPCs that can raise these 5, the best being the reaper in British's castle. --By the way, using the skull drops all virtues by 10. However, if this causes them to go below 10, they get set to 10, so 10 is effectively the lower limit. Still, unless there's a better way to get valor the cost is way too big.
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Thanks. The luck did turn out pretty funny. When playing normally I take out Kary last too. Or at least a little later. There's nothing to stop you from going on and not much useful treasure in the Volcano either.
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Could be the savegame file. I forget if that affects things when you play a movie. An interesting aspect of the battle random number generator is that the seed is stored in the WRAM, the savegame file. So it stays when I do a power cycle. All the information for encounters is in RAM, which allows me to manipulate encounters with the power cycle.
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Ok, here's an IPS for my hack: http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/tas/FinalFantasyTAS.ips Making the hack was actually pretty easy to do with ffHackster. Anyway, if you play on this version you can see exactly where around Coneria there are no encounters.
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Thanks everyone, glad you enjoy it. Caitsith2, I don't know how it desyncs for you. I have tried FCEU 0.98.28 and FCEU 0.98.15 and it is fine.
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By the way, I just remembered (so I don't know whether you did this) but it's actually faster not to get a pre-emptive battle. You save 20 frames by not getting the "a chance to strike first" message :p
That's in the submission text, but I understand if you can't find it because I wrote too much! In fact, I actually counted about 29 frames for preemptives: 19 when the battle starts up and 10 more after the battle. In the submission text you'll also see how I manage that. For more research on the "can't run" flag, I highly recommend that you run ffHackster. It's available from many locations online. But I can answer your question with the offset for the battle data in the ROM: 2C410. Starting there, every 16 bytes describes one of the enemy groups and each group has one "can't run" bit.
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I used frame count as the unit in all my cost functions. There was a mapping for every enemy group as to what gets added to the cost function when they are encountered. If I could run then the cost used an average of the total time needed to run from battle. I didn't go into too much detail in some cases. For example, in most cases it wasn't important what part of the outer world I was in as long as I didn't have to worry about that "can't run" flag. I think this was accurate enough. The main thing I was going for was cutting out "can't run" fights and then the number of fights in general, so this accomplished that pretty well. The shadow group that has a 251/256 chance to surprise me is also very annoying and I tried to cut those down. Now when it turned out that I couldn't get through the last dungeon without fighting, I needed to estimate the time needed to beat those different enemy groups. Then I would set the cost based on my best guess on how long the fight would take and other things like obtaining healing if I needed to take damage. That's how it arrived at this route.
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Thanks dave! The algorithms that control which enemy groups you encounter and when/how many steps are completely separate from the in-battle randomization rolls. So when I planned things out I did know for certain that no matter what happens in the boss battles, the random encounters will be with particular groups and after a particular number of steps. The "can't run" flag is tied to the group and is not random. Now most enemy groups have a random number of enemies. The number of enemies that show up is controlled by the same randomizer as the battle algorithm. This also controls surprise and preemptive status, order taken in battle and rolls for success when running. My run analysis script had to consider all of this. For example, after the Phantom, I knew that I was going to meet Zombie Ds. But the number of Zombie Ds varies between two and four depending on the same randomization that controls whether bane sword works or not.
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qFox, you are very optimistic! Good luck finding 10 more minutes of improvement. It would take a really big glitch. Without the power cycle trick I am extremely skeptical that you could even match the old run. On Garland I really doubt that you can kill him in two rounds with no weapons. I would have done three rounds if I decided not to manipulate luck on levelup. Four rounds was best to get luck. Only a 25% chance to get it. But also remember that the goal isn't fewer rounds, it's less time. Having my guys run unsuccessfully takes a lot less time than a hit and also affects the randomizer differently. So my scripts considered all the options. In the pirate battle you should count the hits. The pirates get the minimum number of attacks. This would be completely impossible to do without taking a lot of damage like this. Also, you do have a good idea with trying to have only one person survive the pirate battle; you only have one person to get the levelup text and run from the rest of the battles. However, the second person is helpful when fighting the wizards. As I said in the submission text, there are a limited number of outcomes and getting both wizards to miss while I hit actually only happens when you have two people and even then there's only a 1/256 chance! With only one person, the best way to proceed would have been to use the inn on the way out of Pravoka as a solo guy would have to take some damage against the wizards. The time to use the inn negated the benefit of having one guy alive! Another possibility is picking up iron armor in the cave, which again takes time.
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I seem to lose information on power cycles in my FCM with this. This program is awesome and I'd like to keep using it for a run I'm working on, but I need to have power cycles during the run to manipulate luck. Is there any way to add support for that?