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I am also a fan of this game for some reason so I vote yes. This run will only impress those who have played the game and know how hard it is to keep the skateboard. The food is well planned and FODA was able to hold right pretty much the whole time so the run is good. The fireball pickup while skateboarding is probably the only non-trivial trick.
Actually playing through this game on the console is really freakin tough because the slightest touch of an enemy or misjump can kill you. You also lose your weapon on dying and in the last few levels you can only get it back right before a boss, which means making lots of crazy jumps through those stupid spiders. The second-last level where you have to jump from one falling platform to the next while bats fly at you is also very tough.
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Holy cow, I wouldn't have thought there were anywhere near six seconds to spare in this, congratulations. Also, anyone who disses this game has clearly not played it enough! It's very fascinating to me.
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Ah, this is sounding more and more hopeful. But why bother with the golden claw? It's a good weapon but the encounter rate increase would kill that and there are better ways to get gold too if drops can be manipulated.
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Also an adblock user, I hadn't noticed. Donations is a good idea, but it seems to me that many of the regulars here are students or recent grads who probably don't have much to throw around. The google ad is a pretty easy way for everyone to contribute.
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Ok, back on topic, I have been thinking about this and there are several ways to get the killing power needed to finish this game. However, SAW is the only way to instakill the final boss, so I think someone in the party really must have this. It can either be a monster (beetle) or a human or mutant that equips it. The monster can be acquired at any time, but unfortunately the same glitch which allows this to work on the final boss also prevents this from working on any monster in the first world. SAW can't be bought until world 3, which means Sei-Ryu would have to be defeated normally.
STONE and DEATH magic slaughters whole groups of most enemies but doesn't work on Ashura or Creator. Stone can be bought in world 3.
I don't think breeding a beetle in world 1 is practical because it would require going from one side of the world to another multiple times. It wouldn't help until Sei-Ryu anyway, so the mutations could be spread out.
But if an easier Sei-ryu is the only advantage to breeding a monster instead of waiting until buying a SAW, then it might be best to just forget about monsters and take all mutants. The POWER ability seals the deal if it can be manipulated, since it would make all battles fairly easy. The best party might just be four mutants.
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1)The lack of time
but most importantly
2)The complexity of planning
Sorry, can't help you on 1. But after successfully TASing big RPGs myself I can tell you that the solution to 2 is iteration. Don't aim for absolute perfection the first time through, but make a reasonable attempt. You may not even get it the second or third, but you will get closer. Of course you'll find tricks as you go which will make the test run look uneven, but I don't think anyone cares. During this process you will also get a feel for timeattacking the game so the next time through it will be easier.
I know it sounds painful to make multiple runs which are all very long and complex, but in the end it just isn't an option to get it right the first time. I did three test runs of DW2 and though it was a pain, the final result was so worth it.
Posting a full test run is also very valuable, no matter what the quality. Not only can you use it as a baseline, but other people can too. With so many people interested in this game I'm surprised no one has done this yet. All the different strategies can be discussed and theorized but this is no replacement for an smv which shows it.
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Ok, this is sweet, but I have a question about when you run out at the abyss stairway. Why not just wait a bit after killing the Hellhound before you turn on the fast run DSS?
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I may have saved a few frames by giving one or two more wings to ! instead of Ollisa, I didn't calculate this at all. If so, it's under the noise of luck manipulation frames and may not have made a difference anyway. Here are the tradeoffs:
*moving to Ollisa in the shop and item dialog takes 6 frames
*on using the wings it takes 5 frames to print "Ollisa" instead of "!"
*for each item in the inventory it takes 2 frames for the list of items to come up (so every time I use a key...)
*takes 3 frames to move to each item in the list (Ollisa has fewer items)
It doesn't matter if you equip the broadsword right away or move some first, the menu takes the same amount of time.
-Getting wings from drops to save time from buying them
Yup, that's exactly why this is done
-Using dragon point was restarting the quest was awsome.
It does look pretty cool
-I didn’t know you didn’t have to be facing a door for the key to work.
Yup, just like in DW1. Thanks to Blinknot for this advice.
-You put a woopin on Atlas! I remember that being a problem spot for you at one point.
I guess I had problems with Atlas before because it is difficult to dodge his attacks. Also, it wasn't until later when I figured out how to use dialog boxes to manipulate much better.
Were you able to manipulate the stats you got at level up?
Levelup stats are fixed and are in fact the same every time you play.
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Yes! I love this RPG series and it's my favorite game of the series so of course I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Once you get Rand you'll be able to avoid all outer-world battles. Also, I'm surprised you didn't use Bow's shot ability, is it easier just to get special hits? Anyway, it looks cool for now, but I suspect there will be trouble areas. Good luck!
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Thanks everyone, this was a lot of work.
On crit waiting, it does seem that for some reason it is more difficult at lower levels and on certain enemies. Also, there is no advantage to varying when you hit the button for some presses, in particular the fight command vs selecting the enemy. Still, there is probably some way to reduce wait time in some cases. The longest pause is on the fight in Lianport and I accepted that because after that there was almost no wait the rest of the fight. It seems the only way to really change luck in battle is to change the order everyone goes, which isn't always acceptable.
Another problem is that once a fight begins, the following variables are set:
A) The enemy group (if it's a random battle)
B) Enemy HP
C) Did not see/enemies attack first/normal battle
D) The order of everyone's turn in the first round
E) The randomization seed for the first round
So basically, I have to find a tradeoff between these because you can't get absolutely perfect values for all of them. In random battles I can actually only manipulate the enemy group, I have to accept whatever it gives me for the rest. For many battles enemy HP was a priority because I needed to manipulate their hp down to get them in one hit (or 23). This is a bigger factor than you might think, I was able to spawn gremlins with under 45 hp out of 60 and Malroth had only 189 out of his 250 max. I know the pauses seem long sometimes, but when I compared to adding extra rounds to battle or letting an enemy attack me first, it was faster.
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This will be pretty sweet, I'm looking forward to it. I forget, is there an upgrade in the secret area? If so, maybe you can just beat Strong Arm and get it without killing all the enemies in the secret area.
Are you going to take hits this time through? There will probably be more spots where you can save time by taking hits in a 100% run.
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Back on topic, I've learned about a new glitch involving equipment and stats. Apparently, the attack and defense stats only change when you use the equip command or when you get a levelup. So they do not immediately change when you throw away or sell the weapon or armor you had equipped. Unfortunately, I don't think this is useful for the run, at least not with any of my plans. In fact, it actually hurts because it makes it more difficult for me to kill the hero off. But it's not too bad and I'm pretty certain that it's much better to simply manipulate more damage than to bother with the equip screen, since it takes about 200 frames minimum. This would be useful if I didn't have to worry about levels because I could buy the broadsword, equip it and then turn around and sell it, saving a good amount of gold. However, I need the power for quite a few fights across many levelups so it won't work.
Also, I've learned the memory addresses for monsters in the current battle. The first one is 0693 and the next is 069A. This is very useful as it will allow me to manipulate lower enemy hp. I am about 30 minutes into the run now and I'm hopeful that I can finish under 48 minutes.
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Edited the movie description to name the Seiken series. Final Fantasy and Seiken diverged a bit more after this game and kept different elements, so I'd say they're different worlds.
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Hey, it's a little too late, but I think I know how you can beat that skull thing in two passes. You don't need to change anything in the fight, just kill more enemies in stages 2 and 3 so you reach him on a higher level. At that point you aren't too far from a levelup and there are at least a couple times when you die with gems in hand.
It might be possible to add more kills to later levels and reduce the buildup time at the end. But the walls give so much xp, it would be tough to make too big of a dent.
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Back on topic, I have been following this run's development and I personally love this game so it's an easy yes for me.
Bisqwit, the first 15 minutes is definitely not the most entertaining part of this run. The first few worlds and the first one in particular requires much more backtracking to and from town than the other worlds. In fact, it looks like as the game progressed the designers skewed more towards action and away from going back and forth between town and dungeon. Indeed, freeing people to build up the town and going back to talk to them is a big part of this game, but Kaz has done the best he can to fix this.
The soundtrack to this game is also profound but again, the good tracks don't really come up until the second world. My favorite is the lab in level 5.
Something Kaz didn't mention is that he skipped quite a few elements which are normally more or less mandatory to finish the game. For example, you are supposed to obtain the Mermaid's Tears and use them at the top of the volcano to cool the lava. He also skips all of the souls which reveal hidden enemies or passages--they are easily replaced by toggling the emulated background layers.
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I think it would make sense to have some sort of links in the submission or workbench area for movies that aim to obsolete a published movie. It's usually mentioned in the submission text but it would make it easier if this was displayed automatically. For new movies, perhaps there should be separate ratings for the movie and for the game.
Also, I keep thinking of that Abraham Lincoln story where he took a vote among his cabinet. They all disagreed with him, but as the story goes he said "The ayes have it." Bisqwit has done a great job building up this site, so whatever he decides is fine with me.
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Glad you could use that info on the RNG. But once you start with Eliwood, don't the stats for all characters you had with Lyn reset? If not then by all means any levels you can get early on should be good. Also, I expect that early on you will have to choose between getting a crit at under 5% and getting good stats. But if you don't level that fight or don't need the stats then it probably is faster to crit. Of course if there are lots of things to control during the enemy turn then that will also make it hard to get those low probability crits.
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Sweet! I was hoping someone would pick this up since I honestly don't know this game very well.
Turning off animations is probably a good idea, at least for testing, because it makes producing the run much easier. Due to how this game randomizes, it should always be possible to convert to animations later. I like how you tried a few different tricks in the earlier levels. On low levels with iron weapons the crit chances are so low, I wouldn't try too hard to get them when it doesn't save any turns. I don't know if your kill-em-all strategy on the protect mission is worthwhile timewise, but you do get some nice advantages by powering up more characters.
It looks like you have managed Eliwood's story pretty well so far. It's surprising how easily you can make the battle go your way. You had to sacrifice some stats on levelups, but hopefully what you get should be good enough. I like that you are able to powerup a decent variety of characters, though in most cases only cavalry characters are relevant. It will be very nice when you need to clear out large levels with lots of enemies. It's surprising how effective Pegasus/Falcon knights are when you can pump their stats. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of this, though it definitely isn't going to get easier. But then as long as Marcus has enough strength to slaughter everyone, you are set. You've probably seen the SDA run, but I hope you find some new strategies which are only viable in a TAS.
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For the Hamlin fight, when you run it goes back to the town, with everyone in the exact same positions as when you started. Then the girl repeats her line, "Evil has come!" and the battle restarts.
I hope that the lighthouse gremlins don't disappear forever and the king of Osterfair gives you another chance, because you can't beat the game otherwise! I bet in both of these cases you can leave the tower/castle and go back for it, though I haven't tried this. If you use an fcm from one of my runs you can check yourself pretty easily.
By the way, I am working on the final run and am about 40 seconds ahead when I reach the Dragon's Horn.
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Wrong thread, dude.
Even on the NES there were many ways to randomize. Perhaps you could experiment with doing different things on the level before or before going into the sewers or before going into the door. Although once you've started the level it seems to be fixed, so I would start by beating Mouser slower or taking an extra hit or something. Good luck.
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ledauphinbenoit wrote:
It seems to me that if Malroth could be manipulated without the use of Surround, then getting Erdrick's armor and killing off the princess would be faster.
I definitely agree with this, but I think that even if it is possible to beat Malroth without surround, it might add so much manipulation time that it's not worth it. One possibility is to always have the hero attack first. The timing of the fight command would control damage and Malroth's action, which would lock him into an attack. Then there would be a separate manipulation to dodge. When Malroth attacks first, the first timing controls his action, whether he misses and much damage. Then with the second timing I can go for more damage on my attack. Anyway, it's definitely possible, but I think it's more significant to beat Atlas solo. After checking a bit more, I believe this is possible, which is a big step.
I have been experimenting with a few things, one of them being running from the required battles. You can, in fact, run from a few of these and as far as I can tell it does no good at all. When you run from the gremlins in Lianport, the battle basically just starts up again. If you run from the Ozwargs in Hamlin they are still there, blocking you from getting the crest. When you run from the four gremlins in the lighthouse tower, they disappear, but you don't get the crest. Finally and most interestingly, you can run from the saber lion battle in Osterfair, but when you talk to the king for the crest, he tells you "Thou art a poor excuse for a warrior. Get thee gone!"
My next run will be for a submission, I think I have it all figured out. I've made up a spreadsheet to calculate gold, experience and some other stats to plan things out just right. The main thing was working out the fights to reach the end with my hero on level 13 and the princess on 6. I plan on picking up Erdrick's armor, which will add about 47 seconds. The princess will die earlier and the hero will solo all the final bosses up to Malroth. Then the princess will come back to life, cast surround and die. The upside is that I will save tons of time due to not having to heal for the damage squares (about 1:30). However, I will have to get past Atlas solo, which may or may not be tough. Another big advantage is that I will not need a wizard ring--I think I can get by just on the princess's original 28 mp. This saves about 25 seconds on the lottery, though I'll still need to play once for something to sell. So if everything works out, I think I can cut out another minute, maybe more.
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http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/DragonWarrior2-TheAxeManv0.4.fcm
Ok, completed this run which finally takes me under 50 minutes! I made several strategic changes and haven't figured out the impact of all of them. However, I'm certain I can improve even more on this and get under 49 minutes.
One change would be reaching Malroth on level 13 instead of 12. I don't need much more experience and this will let me do 8-9 damage a hit vs 5-6. Since Malroth has about 250 hp and I can't crit this is a pretty big difference. The difference would be worth doing an extra fight, but I had the idea of letting the ozwargs call in two more buddies. This would also give the princess inferno magic for the four gremlin battle, speeding it up a bit.
One of the more confusing things I do is use the dragon potion instead of dying once I have the princess. This way I can keep her alive and get the same effect as dying.
I need to look at this a bit more, but I'm pretty sure it was better to take two trips into Rhone. The reason is that I don't need to save in Rhone, so I can warp straight to Beran after beating Malroth, saving about 20 seconds.
Still to check is whether or not I should get Erdrick's armor. The time needed to get it drops slightly if I get it in the first trip through the Rhone cave. If I can dodge Atlas' attack then the princess can stay down all the way from the beginning of Hargon's castle to the final battle. Even better, I might be able to work it out to avoid needing a wizard ring, which saves quite a bit of time in the lottery.
