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Posted: 3/2/2006 8:39 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Congratulations on a great run, Matty! I watched the whole thing and was very impressed. Not only have you used some really surprising warping glitches, but the little tricks sprinkled throughout are very impressive as well. For example, hitting chests to place them on switches, manipulating enemy positions for the snowman switches. The boss fights are also impressive. Voted yes, of course. Perhaps someone else fix up the nonwarping run, Matty deserves a break.
Posted: 3/2/2006 4:42 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Of course this was pretty sweet, the speed is amazing. So L+R gets you negates the backward jumping penalty. In NG2 it lets you go through walls. Anyway, in NG3 hammering the A button actually gives a slight increase to midair backwards movement, but it's definitely not full speed. If you can figure out any more ninja glitches feel free to do some other NG games.
Posted: 2/27/2006 1:22 AM
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TheAxeMan
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See here, and do a search next time! http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2805&highlight=7th+saga&sid=5348e86867bd9476c2d34e2b85d6a836
Posted: 2/26/2006 10:08 PM
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TheAxeMan
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In my last post I wrote:
My current thinking is that the best place to use the leaf is after dying on the ozwargs. I'll keep her alive after that.
Well, I was wrong. At first glance, dying looks better, but with all things considered, it looks like the ozwarg death glitch just isn't worthwhile. Some time is taken to levelup, but it doesn't affect the level I'll finish on, so I can ignore that time. A big factor in this is how much the sleep spell speeds up fights. There's no animation and no manipulation pause because it's very easy to get them to sleep and keep sleeping. I'm working on the four gremlin fight now and expecting to get a nice little timesavings. In fact, I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to bother with the leaf at all. Even when I sail right by the world tree, I lose about 5 seconds to pick it up. Then another 2-3 to use it. One more thing to consider. The animation time for the damage squares might be a factor I should consider. It's 16 frames/square and of course it only happens when I have one or more living characters stepping on a damage square. I left it out because I don't think it's going to be enough to make a difference though. Oh, I did find another method to manipulate enemy groups. When walking around, everything seems to happen in 16 frame increments, so I can only re-randomize once every 16 frames. But by doing something with the submenu I can delay when I cancel out of that with a granularity of one frame. I don't think it will actually cut wait times by 16x, but it should help. Edit: Wait, it doesn't take that long to pick up the leaf. It may still be useful. I've abandoned the plan to levelup enough for defence magic. The fight and levelup time will add up to more than the entire Malroth fight (2-3 minutes) so no matter how much it helps it's just not worth it. Also, I just don't have enough control over enemy groups to get the fights I need without long manipulation pauses. The trick I mentioned before doesn't actually help that much. I'm almost done with the current run, but I can't yet say how it will compare. I had some bad luck with enemy stats and critical hits, which didn't help either.
Posted: 2/26/2006 6:27 PM
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TheAxeMan
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I'll buy that for a dollar. Actually, I'll just vote yes for free. That was pretty sweet, an excellent job was done showcasing what is possible to use and abuse. Hell, just seeing the ending of this game is enough, I never thought it would be possible to win.
Posted: 2/26/2006 5:58 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Mart wrote:
let the princess die on the first floor's damage tiles, and revive her with a leaf as soon as you get in the tower.
Ah, this is a point I have been considering, and it's a pretty complex calculation. Here are some variables: The electric fence-looking squares take off 30 hp. The diagonal lines take off 15 hp. Swamp is only 2 hp. To get to the Rhone cave, I have to cross three fence squares and some swamp. In the beginning of Hargon's castle, I need to cross five 15hp and five 30hp squares. Just before Hargon there are seven 15hp squares. I need to figure out the exact frame amounts, but it's about 2.5 seconds to cast healmore or use the wizard ring. Erdrick's armor is 50 seconds out of the way and only protects the hero. But wait, there are more complications. The princess doesn't have to step on all of them because she is last in the lineup and as soon as the first person steps on the stair the party enters the next area. This cuts out two 30hp squares from the Rhone entrance and one 15hp square on Hargon's castle. Another thing to consider is that I want the princess alive for all the end bosses to get experience--they are worth a lot. It takes at least 20 seconds to manipulate and kill a metal babble, so that is important. Also, in my current version I am planning on leveling up a bit more, so I'll have over 60 hp with my hero. So no, Erdrick's armor isn't worth it under this plan. My current thinking is that the best place to use the leaf is after dying on the ozwargs. I'll keep her alive after that.
Posted: 2/21/2006 12:18 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Ok, here's my second attempt at this. Instead of keeping the princess alive for her magic I buy the light sword and use that to get the surround effect on Atlas and Malroth. In fact, I beat the game without ever casting a spell! However, at 51:02 this is only slightly faster which can be explained by other optimizations here and there. If you watch you can tell why it is slower: seven lottery spins just takes too much time. So now I'm pretty sure that it will be better to develop a plan which has the princess alive until Malroth. I'll use her magic to speed up battles. I will still be using death as shortcut quite a few times, so I'll probably pick up the leaf of the world tree and might work in the Rhone shrine too. Since I have to keep the princess alive, Erdrick's armor looks less attractive, I might skip it. There are more possibilities to speed this up so I bet I can get under 50 mins. http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/DragonWarrior2-TheAxeManv0.3.fcm Edit: Ooh, I forgot about the dragon potion, which becomes much more useful when the princess needs to stay alive! Basically, it will have the same effect as dying without actually dying (I save my game and reset, when I load it up I am at the last town I saved at.) Having the princess alive more will speed up battles as sleep and infernos will be useful, particularly fighting four gremlins. I think this time around I will go for defence magic, which requires killing six metal babbles in addition to the required fights of the game. An optimization here could be finding fights with multiple metal babbles. Also, I will skip Erdrick's armor and use two trips for the Rhone cave. This trades off going through Beran to the cave entrance a second time with the advantage of not needing to save in Rhone, so I'll teleport all the way back to Beran at the end. updated outline: --Start off the same as before, but will re-examine wings usage. Only need two lottery tickets which will both yield wizard rings (one to sell, one to use.) --After getting Princess, keep her alive. Fight a metal slime in Dragon Horn as before, get an iron helm. --Sell helm and one wizard ring, buy broad sword (this will be hero's weapon until near the end.) Beat gremlins for ship. --Sail around to collect items, may get the leaf this time though. --Warp back to Hamlin as before. Then I'll need to figure out if I want to die on the ozwargs or not. If I use the death trick as before this could be where I use the leaf. The princess must survive this somehow. --Climb star crest tower, beat gremlins for crest. Go to Beran as before. --Go to Tuhn for the watergate, then do moon tower. Here is the first place I can fight metal babbles, and I will beat at least one for a dragon potion. --After getting the moon fragment, use dragon potion to save, then reset. Continue game in Beran. --Sea volcano cave. Another spot for metal babbles, and I believe this is the best place to see groups of two or three of them. Since I used the dragon potion, the princess will be alive to get the exp. --Deal with evil clowns and get eye of malroth. Use dragon potion again to get back to Beran without dying. --Go to Rhone cave, get life crest. Two options to get out I need to test: use dragon potion again, or just walk out and use wings. --Get final crest and charm of Rubiss. Wings back to Beran. --Back into the cave, go clear to Rhone. On the way, fight a green dragon for the sword of destruction. --In Rhone, go straight to Hargon's castle. Tear through all the bosses. Beat Atlas either with surround or use a leaf to bring back the prince to take one for the team. On beating Zarlox the hero will be at level 14 and princess 10. Use surround and defence on Malroth. --Use wings and end up outside of Beran. Sail to Midenhall through Zahan as before to finish.
Posted: 2/13/2006 10:13 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Thanks for the comments Mart, I had forgotten how much the golden card would save. In order to be worth it, it has to reduce the number of wizard rings I need. At 25% it will cut two wizard rings, which is nice. Before the discount, the total gold I need is about 20,000 for a broad sword to beat the gremlins in Lianport (1500,) the Jailor's Key (2000,) the light sword (16000) and some wings of the wyvern. The golden card discount cuts this down to 15,000, which I can get with an iron helmet and seven wizard rings. Unfortunately I have to shoot down the Staff of Thunder idea. Besides the trip to Midenhall and dealing with the damage squares, getting the Staff of Thunder would require the silver key, which I don't need otherwise. I had considered the Dragon Potion which can be obtained from metal babbles, but it would be pretty far out of my way to fight one of them before going to Wellgarth. Getting the defence spell is tempting, but I'm skeptical that it would be worthwhile. It would take 12,000 experience and I'd have to keep the Princess alive. This would mean at least 7 or 8 metal babbles, even if I let the princess tag along in the other mandatory battles. Of course this would also give me surround so I wouldn't need the light sword. A good reason to do another test run, I'll see just how nasty Malroth will be at an even lower level. Defence maxes out at some point, -100%, I think. So the most I can expect is to cut the battle time in half. Edit: By the way, on the topic of name and stats, one FAQ lists stats for each character for each levelup. It matches what I got, so I believe the stats are hardcoded in this game. Your name has no effect on it. So because this run will be so long, I think it's fine to personalize the hero's name.
Posted: 2/13/2006 4:19 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Completed test run (51:34): http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/DragonWarrior2-TheAxeManv0.2.fcm It took a lot longer to beat Malroth than I thought (no criticals), so I didn't finish until 51:34. However, the end part was hacked together so I didn't have to redo the run and there is quite a bit of improvement possible. Still, this is well ahead of choco-mint's 55-min run, even after adding in the three minute prologue. The trick to beating Malroth on low level is surround. Sleep does not work. Now the princess of Moonbrook learns surround on level 6, but the light sword casts it when used as an item. The only way to obtain it is to buy it in Wellgarth for 16000 gold. That's pretty steep, but if it means this game can be done solo, it just might be worth it. The light sword is also the most powerful buyable weapon, so it will cut the number of hits in some battles. I still think it will be worthwhile to pick up the sword of destruction later though. In my next attempt, I'll try to clean up a few loose ends and grab the light sword. By cheating the lottery repeatedly, it should be possible to get the gold without too much trouble. Wizard rings sell for 1950. I'll have to check what the discount for the golden card is, it may be worthwhile at this spending level. As far as the route, I'm pretty happy with it and probably won't make any big changes unless someone points out something I haven't seen. This still needs to be a test run because I'm not sure if it will work.
Posted: 2/13/2006 2:55 AM
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TheAxeMan
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What I've found in DW2 doesn't seem to be regeneration, just a random variance in HP. It seems an enemy's stats can vary by some amount. I'm not sure how easy it is to manipulate them. It definitely exists though, watch my WIP for proof.
Posted: 2/12/2006 10:58 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Published before I could vote! But I still wanted to say that this is pretty sweet, great job slotermeyer.
Posted: 2/12/2006 10:52 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Sweet, this looks great Kaz. Seems to me that you've closed up all the obvious holes and found some new tricks. Keep going, I hope you can finish this!
Posted: 2/9/2006 4:52 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Ok, I made it almost to the end before my solo strategy breaks down. It doesn't look like I can dodge Atlas's attacks, at least not on level 9 with no magic. There was a similar problem on the green dragon, but I could control the damage better. Atlas always attacks, and twice each turn. Otherwise the route worked out rather nicely, I probably would have finished right around 50 minutes with at least a couple minutes of possible improvement since this is a pretty rough test run. http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/DragonWarrior2-TheAxeManv0.2.fcm This is where some hacking might be necessary. How do dodged attacks work? Another thing that needs to be figured out is manipulating first hit in battle, since it seems to be determined before other things. Oh one more thing, I've watched choco-mint's run but couldn't understand what was going on in the battles since he was playing the Japanese version. I know he used some magic, but which spells? If sleep works then that is how I would roll. I think I will hack something together to pull a finish out of this test run and find a strategy to beat the bosses. Sleep comes at a pretty low level, I could get that without keeping Kailin alive through most of the game. With her alive I can also forget about picking up Erdrick's armor. She needs a wizard's ring though. Edit: Ah, it could be possible to do with a preemptive strike. Atlas, Bazuzu and Zarlox should all be killable in two hits. That leaves Hargon and Malroth, who I think can both be manipulated to miss. But is it possible to get a preemptive on those three? ("But the Enemies did not not see thee") Another edit: Another possibility with some limits: Use one of my sidekicks as a meat shield. This is especially attactive if Atlas is the only one who can't be manipulated. I could use a leaf of the world tree specifically for this purpose. Ok, I tried sleep and there doesn't seem to be any chance of it working on Atlas. Of course it is possible to beat Atlas just by sacrificing someone, but Malroth even more mean. Malroth is immune to critical hits, so the battle will go on for many turns. Also, his actions seem to be limited to: -breathing fire (min damage around 37) -undodgeable and unsurvivable attack (at my level) -healall--restore all hp Obviously I can't let him use healall if I expect to beat him, so I need some way to nerf him. Actually, looking at choco-mint's run it seems that he used Surround, so that's looking like the best option. I'll have to keep the princess alive after all.
Posted: 2/7/2006 9:18 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Yeah, for testing I am trying to err in using too many wings. After I finish I can try to analyze where they actually save time. In the spring of bravery cave it is definitely faster to die when you can do halfway decent job manipulating luck. An optimization for this is to walk through some swamp on the way to Cannock. In other cases, like simply warping outside from the King of Cannock, I'm not sure if the wings save time. After factoring the time needed to sell items and buy the wings, it may not be faster. It is important to get rid of unneeded items since only the hero will be alive. This is a pretty complex issue, I'll have to look at when I need the wings, when I'm going by item shops, what I have to sell, etc. Perhaps there are some chests not far out of the way? However, once the wings are obtained, they are almost certainly faster. You don't have to start the fight or wait for any hits. You don't have to listen to the person who revived you (No breath, cold as a cod. Yes, AxeMan, thou art truly dead. I suppose I should revive you, though thou deservest less.) There is only one fadeout and you go straight to the outer world which is what I want in most cases. Now for luck manipulation, the only thing I've gotten results from is waiting. Buttons in the middle don't seem to have any effect. This would seem to point to smooth walking not being possible. Does anyone have more insights on this? There are also some things I can't seem to manipulate. I tried to get iron helms from two metal slimes and the second one would only give me gold in the chest no matter what. When is gold vs item determined, or is there some rule like alternating? The other thing is stats. Power is all I have to worry about, though maybe hp too. Can I pick a stronger name or are the stats always consistent?
Posted: 2/7/2006 4:25 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Hehe, I haven't figured out smooth walking either and I am also having trouble manipulating encounters when I do want a fight. But I consider these details that can be worked out later. The main thing is getting a route down. If you watch this you see that for gold/exp/weapons I got a wizard's ring and beat a demighost for his chain sickle. But really I think the ideal case is to forget about the lottery and beat two metal slimes, both dropping iron helmets. My level will go up a bit more and I will use the proceeds to pick up a broadsword at the Lianport weapon shop which will be an acceptable weapon all the way until the sword of destruction.
Posted: 2/6/2006 5:27 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Ok, reviving this thread because I have been thinking about this game. Is anyone still working on this? Anyway, had a few ideas to cut a few more things out: Instead of healing to get past the spikes, just use medical herbs. Unfortunately, it will take a while to buy enough of them. However, not many items are needed to finish the game, so there's plenty of room across the three characters. I think the time to get and use them will be offset by not needing anyone else alive ever. So the lottery won't be necessary, I'd rather pick up an iron helmet from a metal slime. Edit: Here's the start of a run, up to getting the keys. It's pretty rough, really I'm just trying to see if this strategy is going to work. http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/DragonWarrior2-TheAxeManv0.1.fcm I've learned more about manipulating battles, there are some good and bad points, but I think there's enough flexibility to make the battles turn out very well every time. If it's not clear, my plan is to use lots of wings and only keep the hero alive. I can pick up Erdrick's Armor at the end to avoid damage squares, but I might need medical herbs in the volcano dungeon. Another edit, here's my fancy route plan, from the ship. Note that at this point my last save is in Hamlin. -sail to Zahan, get gold key -visit fire shrine, pick up sun crest -Wellgarth is next. Cash in items and buy jailor's key and more wings. Get watergate key and immediately use wings, saving lots of time -Arrive in Hamlin, go to dungeon and get past ozwargs to get water crest -Go to the lighthouse and beat four gremlins (they drop more wings) to get the stars crest. Jump off the tower and back to the ship -use the shrine warping network to reach the shrine north of Beran. Walk tdown to town. -Save in Beran and use wings to get the ship. Sail to Tuhn. -Use the watergate key. Sail around to the tower of moon. It may be faster to wing back to Beran, but maybe not. -Go through tower of moon and get moon fragment. Then get jumped by enemies and die. Might need to kill a metal babble for a load of exp and gold. -Revived at Beran. Sail west and stop in at Osterfair for the moons crest. Don't save, get back on ship and go to the volcanic sea cave (use the moon fragment) -Navigate lava dungeon, get eye of malroth. Either die or possibly pull a trick with dragon potion. -Revived in Beran. Use the eye and take the road to Rhone. Pick up the life crest and Erdrick's armor. -On reaching Rhone, save at the shrine there. Take the portal back to Beran. -Sail to Rubiss' pad and get his charm. Use wings to warp back to Rhone. -Storm Hargon's castle, picking up a sword of Destruction on the way. Use it to wail on Hargon, Malroth and the henchmen. -Epilogue - wing back to shrine, take the warp to Beran. Sail to Midenhall. Game over.
Posted: 2/6/2006 4:16 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Voted yes as I think it's good enough to publish. Of course if there are improvements then I hope to see an improved version, but overall this was good enough to impress me.
Posted: 2/3/2006 9:41 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Took a break from playing DW8 to watch this and was very impressed. May the light shine on thee, Acmlm.
Posted: 1/24/2006 12:53 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Right, there are very few ways to reduce the number of battles and the options are far less than Dragon Warrior. It's a bit more complicated than simply deciding how many steps until the next fight though. There's a predefined sequence of numbers which you cycle through on each step that has random encounters. If the number is below a certain threshold, you get into a fight, so low threshold means fewer fights. The threshold varies between outer world walking (highest), sailing on the ship (lowest) and walking through dungeons. I suspect that the threshold varies in some of the dungeons. Anyway, sometimes you can avoid a battle when going from a lower threshold area to a higher one. For example, if there is a number on the list which is above the ship threshold but below the outer world one, you can do some extra sailing to avoid the fight. But this is highly dependent on the next few numbers on the list. Furthermore, that list is always cycling, so those extra steps before disembarking will affect things later, potentially adding another fight. Now some spaces mysteriously don't have random battles and thus do not use up a random encounter variable on the list. For example, just north or south of doors in dungeons. But also the grassy area south of Coneria. Sometimes there are several spaces in a row. Doors and walls are the only clue I've been able to use to find these spots. So overall the tricks don't put much of a dent into the number of steps where you have to push through the random encounters. The big problem, however, is battles where you can't run. Unless the trick is just enough to move the encounter into the next area (which changes conditions to make the battle runnable,) the only other option is to take extra steps and have the encounter in an earlier area. If this is being done, then any steps which don't burn up numbers on this list amount to wasted time. Basically, just because it's possible to reduce the number of battles in the short-term doesn't necessarily lead to an overall improvement.
Posted: 1/3/2006 8:05 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Well, I'd say humans in FFL1 are out, but a mutant could be useful. As I said before, POWER can beat early bosses easily. Also, if there is some way to get stats up every battle, a mutant could build up very quickly. But in FFL2, stats only go up by 1 when you get the message, which is tough to get. It still might be possible to get a lot of mana quickly, which would turn a mutant into a killing machine with magic spells that don't have to be bought. Also, FFL2 mutants can learn high-level spells from mid-game bosses, which leads to some strange glitches. If the spell selection and mana stat can be controlled well, a mutant could be pretty powerful. Finally, FFL2 robots are powered up by their equipment. Consider also that enemies can drop items in FFL2. If this can be used to get useful or expensive items and all items and money goes toward one robot, it may not be hard to put together a powerful robot. Monsters are much better in FFL1 because you can build them almost all the way to the top in the very first world. There's no way to do this in FFL2, so monsters don't break the game as badly. However, FFL2 monsters are generally more powerful than FFL1, so they are still likely to be easier to use than humans or mutants. I bet it would actually be fairly easy to TAS FFL2 with four monsters, assuming random encounters can be avoided and meat can be manipulated.
Posted: 1/1/2006 5:00 PM
Post subject: Final Fantasy Legend
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TheAxeMan
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I actually played my old gameboy a bit while travelling over the holidays and finished an all-monsters quest in this game. Anyway, I noticed a trick which can be exploited to avoid encounters and make a decent TAS on this game. Of course, it's possible to run from random encounters, but not possible to manipulate the run to work. First, if you save your game and run into a battle, then power cycle your gameboy and try again, the same thing will happen. However, if you run into the battle, then do a soft reset, the steps-to-battle counter will reset. So here is the sequence to go anywhere without having any encounters: --Walk until the next step will be a battle --Save --Take the step, going into battle --Soft reset (A+B+Select+Start) --Walk on through to the next fight Still to do is to see if this can be used to manipulate luck. It may be faster to run if that's possible, but it isn't always. However, a TAS on this game won't need a whole lot of luck since there are attacks which can kill any boss pretty easily. Anyone with a lot of experience at this game can figure out a plan to nail the bosses using the SAW glitch. Unfortunately this won't work on the first few necessary fights (all first world fights,) but these fights should be easy enough to beat some other way. My first guess at the party was two monsters. One monster will become a beetle to be the SAW man and the other will get an instant death attack to finish off everything else. All battles would be easy, but this would be very difficult to build up. Perhaps a better idea is one mutant and one monster. The mutant hunts down meat to get the monster to beetle and uses POWER to kill the first world bosses.
Posted: 12/20/2005 12:22 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Hehe, I guess this has kinda slipped. However I have pretty detailed records written down for everything and the TAS process for this game is very automatic, so once I do start it will go fast. I'll have to hurry if I want to match this to the US release of FF XII. Lately I've catching up on some more recent PS and PS2 games.
Posted: 12/16/2005 8:11 PM
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TheAxeMan
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Very impressive, not only do you manipulate things very well, it appears to be almost effortless. You've clearly worked very hard at finding the best order to visit towns and talk to people. One thing I wonder though, can you use the medical herbs in the colliseum, even though Alena has full hp? Does it matter either way to have those in your inventory? I would think you'll need the inventory space in chap 5, but maybe not.
Posted: 12/16/2005 7:06 AM
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TheAxeMan
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Wow, this is pretty sweet. Your manipulation is great, but I suspect it can be even better in some places. So it's a definite yes but I'll hope to see an even better version in the future.
Posted: 12/13/2005 8:31 AM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player (698)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Well, it worked fine for me, and I must say that was pretty neat. You've certainly covered quite a few of the angles for this game. As you said, the lab and airship fights are great, I definitely wasn't expecting that. The trick with the teleporting wizards is also very cool. It does seem like the magic and gem usage can be played with quite a bit to optimize things. Early on, it didn't seem like you ever had too many gems, so more deaths shouldn't be a big problem. In the last few levels the magic is great, so death is probably tougher to handle. On the last level, it looks like you could have killed some more enemies as you battle through, which would cut down on the ending buildup. Also, you ended the input after killing Deathtoll, but there are a couple spots in the ending which need input.
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