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groobo wrote:
The second bottle in dan's crypt would definitely be a waste of time since the fight with zarok only takes like 30s or so and you need like 5-10s total to pick up the vials. The bottle in the graveyard would be worth it since turning the statue and taking the route with the bottle is slower than the normal way by less than a second and I guess it'd save more than that during the fight with zarok.
I'm all out of ideas for now so I'm going back to playing around the gauntlet.
edit: For the gauntlet, I guess we could also get onto any of these blocks in order to progress to the right one from there and finish the level early.
I'll try, but, if we don't get anywhere soon with this... I guess I'll just make the TAS and forget about skipping the gauntlet :P
Edit: Invisible wall this, or invisible wall that... This level is FULL of them, I've tried literally everything. I, somehow, actually managed to get enough speed to jump (lower ofcourse) to were we jump over the brick wall (where the star rune goes) but... believe it or not there's... an invisible wall there! The only reason it works in the skip, is because we jump over it.. Also, appearantly, depending on how dan faces.. Decides how some invisible walls work (That explains why some spots you can walk on at one point, but if you do something else, you fall or.. die or etc) ... Really, it's been fun trying to do the impossible, but... Unless you can figure it out, this level is basically unskippable. I've tried everything known to man, even using a club! (literally, lmao)... So... Idk, if you can't figure anything out, I guess it's just time to start the thing.
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I'll test that about return to the graveyard here in a second...
Really though, I've got a proposal that might work, and i'll check that afterwords. Though whenever I can, I'll have vids showing things.
In the any% TAS thing, I suppose it could be reasonable to get 3 life bottles, the 2 in Dan's Crypt and the one in the Graveyard... That way we can extend the time further. And, it probably would save time in Zarok's lair like you said.
All will be done in testing ofcourse. I'll probably do 3 complete any% TAS, with different ways of doing it, and whatever's fastest, will be the one I submit.
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Man I've been testing the thing out non stop forever, but I've also some more ideas on things that could work now with that knock back daring dash.
I'll edit this after I get some of those spots tested out, and give some pictures, and maybe a video of things.. I don't know yet though.
------------------
Edits: I've found out that I did something wrong, because I've managed to get the running speed knockback dash from 56, to actually 65! And that's without using the daring dash. With the daring dash knock back dash, the speed is actually around 86. (From what I got, I've tried numerous times, but this isn't my cup of tea to do lol).
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skychase wrote:
Torn338 wrote:
19. Pools of the Ancient Dead - I've tried it, and every time I try, I kill the zombie, and can't get it onto the platform.. Can you explain how to get it on the platform? :P
Push him to the edge of the platform with the sword and dash into him (you probably already guessed this ^^).
I can't wait to see your next WIP
o_o I've done that and it keeps dying xD... Maybe I'm just shooting it wrong. or at a weird angle.
Next WIP some :p
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Okay, I've updated all the tricks that we know of, they're the 3rd post on Page 1... If I've left anything out tell me :P... I've got a few ideas of my own right now... So here goes...
1. Scarecrow Fields - If there's any way we could clip parts of this level (such as the beginning gate before the fight the robot imp), it'd save atleast 30 seconds off of the 100% run because we wouldn't have to go around to get the Earth Rune. (I at first figured the robot imp did not count as % to the chalice, but I was wrong :P). As well, if there's any skips usable at the Death trap machines, that'd help too.
2. (Useless though) I believe it's possible to enter the spot where the chalice is in The Pumpkin Serpent level (before killing the boss)... Though, like the beginning of this sentence, it is rather useless :P.
3. The Asylum - I wonder if there's a way to clip into the yellow door with the straight jacket zombies? Also, I wonder if there's anyway we could possibly get a loop going somewhere in this level, maybe it'd save time, if it's possible?? Though only useful if we are never able to skip the gauntlet.
4. The Asylum Grounds - Clipping through gates here would be useless, however, entering loop mode, and falling straight to where the chess pieces are would be extremely beneficiary. However, the sad part is, chances are, we'll figure out how to skip the Gallows Gauntlet completely, and won't even enter this level outside of 100%. And in 100%, we have to kill what is necessary for the chalice, and some enemies don't even spawn without Jack's dialog triggering them.
5. The Crystal Caves - (For 100%) I wonder if the Dragon just automatically is given a set path to move based on the RAM that you have when you entered the level on x frame. Or, if based on when you hit it, on a certain frame, or where you're standing, have to do with that? (If so, we could make him stay at the top platform every time, definitely saving time).
6. The Ant Caves - (For 100%), I came to the conclusion that some people will say that it's not 100% if we didn't get the chicken drumsticks, and I do completely agree with them, so... I'll get a path (this probably won't be a big deal) that gives all the amber we need, and all the fairies. As for the Queen, she's severely weak to Spears and lightning, so we could probably post pone doing this level until then. And with the map from the guy over at IGN, I don't have to worry about "Where the blank am I? o.O)
7. Dan's Crypt - (For 100%), It'd be faster to complete Return to the graveyard before getting the life bottle here wouldn't it? :P (A question I know).
8. Gallows Gauntlet - Use the knock back dash to get onto the pillar where we do the skip at maybe.
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groobo wrote:
So (assuming we're talking about jumps): 28 is a running jump, 52 is a dash jump, and 56 is a knockback running jump (without dash). If my logic isn't flawed a knockback dash jump should be AROUND 100 at its peak (you can tell that there's a huge difference between this and a normal dash jump, speed-wise, just by seeing it in action). I assume you did the knockback trick the right way. You can either kinda do it (when the hit registers after the jump) so it enables you to cover a little bit more distance with a jump, or do it the right way (not really sure without testing with frame-advance, though I always attack before jumping) - then it gives you that little bit of distance at the start AND doubles your speed as it seems. Yes a knockback dash jump is possible. That's how I covered the gap in the crystal caves and I can do it pretty consistently.
Here's a dummy-proof tutorial:
Step 1) Let's assume that you're running straight against a wall in front of you (hold UP).
Step 2) When you're ready, tap SQUARE (club equipped) for a single frame while still holding UP (maybe you have to release it here, I dunno).
Step 3) Now you release UP and hold the opposite direction.
Step 4) In the next frame you push and hold BOTH - TRIANGLE (shield/dash) and CIRCLE (jump).
Step 5) Celebrate.
That's how I do it in real-time anyway. I can be massively off with the timings (what input goes to what frame), but I'm positive that the button sequence is right. So it's attack -> change direction -> dash jump.
As for using this to maybe clip through something: maybe at a higher speed the game would basically brute-force Dan to go through. Nobody expected Dan to move this fast and I guess we can gain even more speed with a push from an enemy (a knockback dash jump with a push from the snake guy from a chest would go to at least 150) so we can at least give it a shot. This wouldn't be the first game where high-speed, brute-force clipping works, you know. Just change and freeze the ram value for speed at a different level each time (start at, say, 100 and work your way up from there) and try jumping through different spots. Two good spots for this test would be the fence clip in cemetery hill (the one that you go through after getting the talisman), and the cage wth a health vial near the yellow rune holder gate in the gauntlet (there's no sign that you can clip through it, but I did it once before and could never replicate it).
EDIT: It appears that you don't have to nail the real knockback dash jump in order to cover the gap in the caves. I was able to just barely make it with a pseudo knockback dash jump where after hitting the wall I merely got some extra distance instead of the full speed bonus after dash jumping. I guess this proves that you can approach the wall at various angles to prepare for this (and probably only this one) trick, instead of locking yourself in place between stuff.
I played some more around return to the graveyard and I found that you can hit some non-solid invisible wall or something while standing on this tombstone. I couldn't get a full knockback jump to work, but (very rarely, but still) I pulled off a pseudo one. It appears that the few extra pixels is enough to get up the cliff if you'd move in a straight line. I tried doing it in a couple of angles, but because of the crappy camera I basically always moved in zigzags. Here's a shot from above the area in case you want to know what's approximately the best angle. I measured the distance for each angle, starting at an optimal position on the tombstone for each one and ending where the trajectory meets the cliff. The dots above the numbers represent the cliff's altitude at each angle's end (blue is the lowest, yellow the opposite, green is somewhere in between). So the distance you'd have to cover for each of those is as follows: 1 - 111pix, 2 - 114.5pix, 3 - 106pix, 4 - 106.9pix, 5 - 133.5pix. No. 4 appears to be the best one since it's less than a pixel longer than the shortest one and it ends at the lowest altitude. Of course unless you somehow manage to pull off a full knockback jump, then you could even move alongside the cliff for the most of the jump and still get onto it.
You're... quite amazing ;D .. And definately overwelming ^^, but I suppose thats a good thing really... I'mma rearrange the way I have the first 3 post (later) that way post 2 and 3 join together... And I can use the 3rd post to list the tricks. List things that I need help on (mainly from you, and you're dummy proof methods :P), and things that I can well. And what I can actually do myself without major trouble. No. 4 seems to be the best one like you said, and frame advance helps alot truly, I'll see what I can do lol. I'm actually being lazy today :[ , but I do promise to have updates from my side by tonight, and I'll use your new trick to see if theres any progress on the Gallows Gauntlet as well.
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groobo wrote:
Ok, at the crystal caves I locked myself between (still not sure if this is necessary) a goblin and a wall near the gap, did the knockback dash jump (let's call it that) from there, and it was more than enough to cover the gap and finish the level without going oob.
Oh and the most important thing on the to-test-list right now is to check if speed does matter when trying to clip through something.
I'll check the speed of the knockback dash then...
The normal dash speed has a speed max of 52. It uses the running speed of 27-28 max, by adding 8 or 9 speed values at the use of the dash button (triangle), to make 36, then adds either 7 or 8 values to make either 43 or 44 (depends on the frame, really the value of the speed that we use dash on, preferably 28 speed), then 9 or 8 to make 51-52. Whenever it reaches the max speed of 51 or 52, it keeps the speed relevant for a few frames (basically 52 for 2 frames, 51 for 2 frames, 50 for 2 frames), then it decides to decrease the speed down by 1 every frame thereafter. So in general, it will either decrease it back down to 27-28 or 0 if you stopped moving.
Using the clubs square attack gives the speed from value 0 (that means me standing still obviously) to value 22, it then decends by 7 the next 4 frames to 15, then 12, 9, 6, 4, then finally reaching 0.
Using the knockback dash while walking:
Can be 30-35, but usually is 31 or 32. Not sure why. But it really don't matter, because I really don't think we'll be using this while walking :p.
Using the knockback dash with running:
56 when running maximum. So IT is faster (in terms of moving speed atleast) than the daring dash ability. Though I really think that the time it takes to actually make the speed go up by 4 points (using the knockback dash instead of using the daring dash I mean :P). So this is a good thing, but as for a time saver, I don't know. It'd definately help if those 4 extra values of speed could help us skip the Gauntlet, and maybe get over spots before we get the daring dash (such as in Return to the Graveyard). Like, it'd help in spots where we need to get over chasms that are basically a pixel off (like in the crystal caverns) but... Yeah you know what I mean xD.
And, really, just from common sense that I know of.. Not really tested it, but I do not think that speed has anything to do with clips, it really just has to do with moving dan, into the clip zone. Because the clips that I've tested, I could do them standing in place and just barely moving clip through something (not all of them, but I mean a few).
Well there's the stuff I'm sure you wanted, I'm rather confused on how you do the knockback dash trick while also using the daring dash, if it's possible?
Edit again: Nevermind on the edit thing I just said if you read that.. It works on all of them :D.
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groobo wrote:
I discovered two new tricks. The first is pretty minor and I dunno if it'll be useful for the any%, but the second is possibly HUGE.
You can replenish any weapon with a percentage/quantity to the point as if you just picked it up for the first time (100% club, 100x daggers, 150x xbow, etc.) with this little trick. Remember those pesky goblins that steal your weapons? Go into the inventory at the exact frame when the "something stolen" message appears - the game will register the weapon you were carrying as stolen, but you will still have it in your inventory. Now (still in the inventory screen) choose the weapon that just got "stolen" for it to stay in your inventory for good (only exceptions are the club and the hammer - the former will be destroyed since the percentage/quantity of a weapon drops to 0 after performing this glitch, while the latter will still be equipped but will disappear from your inventory for some reason). Now simply kill the goblin and pick up the goods. This might be useful at the entrance hall or the crystal caves if we need more durability on our club for zarok's lair (assuming that there's no chest with a new club somewhere on our way - couldn't remember any). I tried overflowing the memory or forcing the goblin to drop something else by retrieving like three small swords in a go, rebuying the "stolen" weapon from the shop, overkilling the quantity of daggers/bolts, or forcing the goblin to steal your arm - but there was no apparent result, except the replenish trick.
Now for the big news: I found a way to jump with speed similar to a dash jump, but without it. And after you get the dash ability, you can basically dash jump with insance speed, covering pretty big distances. You'll have a better chance of learning the restrictions of this technique with frame advance, because the timing is really strict. Basically what you'll need is a club (the only weapon with which I got this trick to work so far, because of its square button instant-hit, but I guess you could do it with the small sword and such) and something you can hit that will put you into motion, like a wall (if the timing allows it I guess you could also get it to work with a push from a monster instead). You basically have to be running towards the wall/whatever you want to hit (also, I only managed to do it while locking myself against points where two walls meet so I could run in place, using frame-advance you should check if this is in fact necessary), push the attack button, and at the right moment hold the right combination of directional keys as if you wanted to go the opposite way (Dan does his sliding animation) and jump/dash jump. You should gain a shit load of speed, when done correctly.
The first thing you should test is if we can use this technique while running alongside a wall, instead of straight against it - this would allow us to cover the gap in the crystal caves without going oob. I found a spot where you could lock yourself against a wall at the right angle and just barely miss the ledge on the other side with this trick, but that spot was between two diamonds close to where you even enter the cave, so if we could do this just a tad bit closer to where the yellow rune holder is. Oh, and you could go straight for the exit trigger in the pools of the ancient dead, without luring the fat guy. And probably enter loop mode in the ghost ship with enough speed to get to the exit trigger in a single loop a bit earlier (assuming I'm right, thinking that you move at less than walking speed after entering the void with the inventory glitch).
Another thing you should test, as I already mentioned, is if we can do this trick with a push from an enemy instead of hitting a wall with a weapon. This would easily get you onto the cliff from a tombstone in return to the graveyard. Unfortunately the tombstones are the lowest point from which you gain enough height with a jump - and I wasn't able to hit anything while standing on top of them.
This opens up new possibilities for skipping the gauntlet: now we can also consider getting onto the blocks way infront of the yellow rune holder gate or any blocks that are close by as a valid option. Speaking of the gauntlet: try changing Dan's horizontal speed values and check if clipping through shit that you know is already possible is a result of only the right angle, high enough speed, or a combination of both - maybe with higher speed we can clip through more stuff, so in case it's true you should test what's the breakpoint and if we can reach it with this new technique.
Later I'll play around with this a little more. I'll keep you posted if I actually get somewhere with it.
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groobo wrote:
Wouldn't low% be essentially the same as any%? Given that you have to pick up the club anyway, the only difference would be killing the mausoleum boss with your arm instead of the daggers. Unless tasvideos accepts runs with obscure goals like using only one weapon for all of the game, even though you have to pick up a way stronger one and use it at some point anyway. I'm not really sure about the rules around here. I'm not even mentioning (look what I did there) that an arm-only run would be a real pain to watch - think zarok.
There are shortcuts which are probably only useful in a 100% run, so I'm looking forward to helping you with that.
New ideas...
Need to...
Test...
(not related to the gauntlet... ok, maybe)
Dude, seriously... Wtf :P I was seriously just thinking that before I got on here... I was like, groobo.. Has.. seriously made the any% run, basically the lowest% run. Though I suppose great minds think alike.
Uhm, I think I might just skip the crossbow and just go with throwing daggers, use the club, and what not. I'mma test a few things, and then I'mma start on the real legit TAS after I test those. I'll finish the 1st 4 levels (remember level 0 being dan's crypt, and level 4 (return to the graveyard) is one of the things I need to test)... Then I'll mess around with the Enchanted Forest, seeing what it best and what not, use the pools of the ancient dead skip (Thank you :P), The lake skip (I do think it's faster than using the loop trick, but if push comes to shove that it really isn't, I'll just redo it, it truly isn't a big deal), Crystal Caverns Skip, then be on the Gallows Gauntlet.
I'll be testing as I'm playing, take short breaks... Tonight's going to be a long night :)
Edit: I, basically, could just obliterate the lowest% run, since... Our any% run, is now, the lowest% run too.. As the games percentage really counts for the chalices collected... So technically, it will be pretty much 0% :P, though.. In the 100% run, that little fact, won't stop me from getting everything, because I do feel it's not 100% unless you get everything.
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groobo wrote:
Had some new ideas.
Unlike the catapult in the haunted ruins, the boat in the pools of the ancient dead is NOT the exit trigger, so to speak. After you give the boat guy all the helmets, a cutscene starts where Dan rides the boat and after he goes off-screen the level ends. It appears that the exit trigger is somewhere along the boat's path all the time, even if you don't pick up a single helmet, or never speak to the boat guy. The problem is was that even with a dash jump at a perfect angle, you miss the trigger by an inch or so. You can go around it by luring/pushing the closest fat-armored-undead-thing as close to the platform next to the boat as you can, then dashing into the bastard in order to get him onto that platform without killing him. When you dash into him at the right angle the game sometimes registers two hits instead of one, which enabled me to do this trick in real time (dunno if you really have to double hit, that's the only way I managed to force enough momentum on him to cover the gap, though). From there you just place him as close to the boat as possible, while avoiding the conversation trigger. And finally you dash jump with a boost from his belly-attack like this (the blue line is where the exit trigger is, the arrow is basically the general direction you want to go in).
I also played around zarok's lair. If you enter the first cutscene on the arena with the inventory glitch and turn it off a couple of frames before the last piece of dialog ("for gallow-something!"), for some reason, only half of the enemy skeletons will spawn. Just don't go to close to where the gates and zarok are because that will spawn the remaining enemies. Your soldiers basically gang up on the helpless enemy skeletons and you can complete the fight without even picking up the good lightning while loosing maybe 1, 2 at worst, of your guys. This will probably force you to reconsider the amount of health bottles you'll want to get for the TAS - I'm guessing none.
You can also make the game finish the battle before it even starts by NOT going out of the inventory glitch and keeping it all the way through the cutscene, but it'll always consider you as the loser. Tried to make the game declare me the winner by entering the cutscene at different angles, starting the inventory glitch sooner/later, dropping the inventory glitch at different times, watching/skipping each dialog - but every time zarok was all about "harhar told you", so I guess we HAVE to kill at least half of the enemies, unless we find a way to spawn at least one of our skeletons and none of zarok's. The latter only happens when you don't go out of the inventory, and even though your guys spawn a couple of frames after the cutscene, you're still declared the loser, because the game first checks if there aren't any of your guys left and you lose if that's true (which it is because they spawn AFTER the initial check) and THEN it does the same check for zarok's army. This basically explains why you'll always lose if no skeletons exist during the check.
You can also delay the next boss' entrance. If you go out of the inventory after you gain back control over Dan, the boss will just then start walking out of the cage and do his intro. He's vulnerable to your attacks during that time. I could nearly waste him with the club before he even got a chance to fight back (got him to like 200hp, maybe less), but I guess that won't be a problem in a TAS. I couldn't delay zarok's intro. It's controller strictly by timing, instead of waypoints like the previous boss.
Speaking of the bosses - I finally had a while to check how many chalices it would be worth getting. I'm 99% sure that getting ANY chalice is a waste of time - doesn't matter if we manage to skip the gauntlet or not. First I checked if at least getting the xbow would be worth it. After giving it some though it turns out that it's only useful for the boss at the mausoleum and that's because, at this point, we can only reach him with projectiles. We can 2-round him with the xbow, or make it almost as fast with a 3-round fight using the daggers. Just to be sure I did two runs up until after the mausoleum, one getting the chalice in the graveyard, the other without it. For measurement I used the in-game save function, which doesn't give you seconds so I'm not sure how much faster the no-chalice route is, but it at least proves that it is in fact faster. The time after the mausoleum using the route with the chalice was 0:07, and 0:06 without it. Just for some trivia I continued with both runs through the next level and the gap between the two was still a minute, so even if it's not really a FULL minute I'm guessing the difference isn't small. That closes the xbow book.
As for getting any higher weapon, like the hammer or broad sword - this would be an even bigger waste of time. The club is all you need for insane damage output. It's only slightly worse than the enchanced broad sword. We can kill the boss(es) in return to the graveyard in 3-4 seconds using the club, before they even finish their first attack. The one pirate officer we have to kill in the ghost ship goes down in like 3 hits. And assuming that we skip the gauntlet, we add zarok and the boss before him to the enemies we have to defeat in the entire game list. The first goes down either during his intro or the first chance we get to harm him after that - no matter if you're using the club or the broad sword. For the latter I checked the exact damage output and assuming we manipulate him into only doing the move during which he's vulnerable to our attacks for the entire fight, the club vs anything else dispute ends right here: you deal about 400 damage/round (let's say that zarok's vulnerable state is a round, each lasts for about 3 seconds) with the club, 600 for the first and 500/round for the remainder with the enchanted broad sword. Even without testing you can tell that zarok's lair, among all the levels in the game, is where a higher weapon saves the most time - which in this case is only a handful of seconds.
Sorry for the huge blocks of text.
This is TRULY fantastic news :), I'm exited that it's the weekend too so I can drop all the work I have to do for school (Chemistry and Algebra 2 really are horrible classes for me :c), and can finally start testing everything. Now, even though the TAS I'm making, probably won't be as great of one as if we did this a year from now, but, I do feel that after a little bit more testing, we can figure this out.
The Gauntlet, still stands in our path, but I WILL break that level before too long (before I die hopefully.... lol) =P.
Also, after I finish the any% TAS, the lowest% TAS, will actually be quite funny... Beating the entire game with just Dan's arm... I truly, will laugh making it. Then the 100% TAS, someone over at IGN made some maps, so I can finally do the Ant Caves, and the 100% One will b a blast to make. So I should have everything finished by the beginning of december. And then, I can start on my amazing dream (MediEvil was my dream, but, this is my next one lol) TAS - Crash Bandicoot 3 Warped :P ... Lol
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Sticky wrote:
oh very nice! Just don't burn yourselves out, you two! ;)
Lol, na.. That possibly could NOT happen with this amazing game :P
groobo wrote:
Well, we already know how to get ONTO the pillar. We just have to figure out a way to clip behind it first, which I think is just rare, but possible. Also, once you get onto the first piece of wood, you can jump onto that square thingie connected to the wall and dash jump above the gate from there, so there's no need to jump to the second piece of wood.
Welp, I'm trying to get kinda oob there to be like if we were already on it and fell into the little crack there.. But no luck.
Also, I'm trying to figure out a way to instead of getting oob and doing it that way, to simply be able to jump on it. This was also used with the club's square button use, to be able to push me back when I jumped, hoping to be pushed onto the ledge.. That is very possible to do, but I've had no luck with it as of yet.
Finally, I suppose I'm needing your input, and help as well. This is something that seems to have trouble with, and if you ever find anything out about getting onto it, just tell me :p.
Thanks :P (Yeah, I'm still trying as I'm trying ;P)
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groobo wrote:
Well, we already know how to get ONTO the pillar. We just have to figure out a way to clip behind it first, which I think is just rare, but possible. Also, once you get onto the first piece of wood, you can jump onto that square thingie connected to the wall and dash jump above the gate from there, so there's no need to jump to the second piece of wood.
=P Same thing, lol I'll work on the clip of that later
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Man... I regret to say................................................................
THAT IS HAS FINALLY BEEN DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VIDEO OF AWESOME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPtsoOFpr10
Haha, I'm smiling hugely, now the only thing to figure out in this level is how to get onto the pillar (the one I start on in the video), I used the camera to get on it, but still yet, this is the only way I see us finishing this level, so it should be no hassle for us to figure this out :).
Now, finally at rest, just have to figure out a few respective tricks, get onto the pillar in the gallows gauntlet, clips.. sweetspots maybe in spots.. optimize all skips that we've found.... And the any% TAS is ready for publication :]
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Some news on the Gallows Gauntlet:
BAD News:
- Getting into the cage with the star rune is impossible. (Invisible wall blocks it)
- The cage, is unclippable (its just there for looks) [See Debug Dan only]
- (From above) The real thing stopping us, is the said invisible wall which disappears when the switch is activated.
- If, somehow, we could loop into the spot with the star rune, yet found it impossible to reach the exit, it would be of no use, because the invisible wall blocks us from both side (Test for yourself with free camera).
- The level has MANY walls, invisible and visible, blocking the oob areas.
- The inventory glitch that you found, does not work on the "early exit", so, we can't even try to get oob there.
- Looping the level isn't impossible (YAY!!!!!!!!!), because I've done it (with cheats though), however, the level seems to be very close to itself (maybe all levels are like this, idk)... So, we don't have much time to really maneuver to the exit (though possible I'm sure).
- MANY, if not all, of the oob spots I've found, are indeed out of bounds, but... The level pushes you back into it.
- There seems to be a very Huge Invisible wall above the yellow star rune gate however (view the first good news) ... it's not all bad ;).
Good News:
- On the left of that big huge invisible wall, is a pillar... WHICH can be stood on, and frankly its a very big area too... Really question is, how can we get on it? I've thought of that and came up with 2 solutions. (see below)
- (Kinda personal note) I've managed to clip into the dragon fire gate for myself, from the left side... Here's how it works, the fire itself, is UNpassable without the dragon armor, obviously. But, if you go oob, even an inch, you're not in its "zone" and you can move right past it, which is fantastic! However, controversial, we need to step on the switch to open up the gate which holds the yellow rune... So, we can't stay in oob the entire time.
- But heres the good news on that, say, that we could get a boost past these invisible walls, (1 solution here for many things), find a glitch where, instead of going in a rainbow style motion, we could go in a upward motion, starting from the top... What I mean is, say we could find a spot, in this level, that... At the top of the level, we could "jump into" it, NOT fall, but could still walk/run... I have found one spot on this level like that, but its near the bottom of the level (near the early exit, in the door shaped thing, the right pillar of it, just jump when you get in it and you'll see what I mean)... Now, it will be sorta like that, be the glitchy lag walk I'm sure, but... It could also get us in a loop if nothing else.
- It IS possible to get out of the dragon fire room after clipping into it, the thing about it though, is that unless we can "proxy" jump to the top past the dragon fires, we're stuck in there, UNLESS we can get oob (does not even have to be a loop), or have Kul Katura push us into an oob area, or push us with great force that we ACTUALLY clip through the dragon fires (probably in the center of it).
- This level is still, 50/50 on being able to be skipped, but even though it is getting harder as everything being tested, its being easier to figure out the last big of ideas of what might work and might not, as well, it's also letting us figure out what is possible and not.
Pretty much that's what I've found so far, still no luck as for getting any where past where you've got, but if there is any way at all for us to be able to stand on an enemy, it'd seriously help alot. Also, it'd help even more if we could figure out how to proxy jump in this game. There has to be a way to skip this level, nothing is perfect, and I don't care if it takes weeks, I will figure it out >:) ... And sorry, I do feel a bit, sick, so, all I really want to do is try to skip this level for now... I'll have the video soon enough, but I can't be bothered with doing it tonight :(
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Cemetery Hill
Yeah forgot about that lol, still won't know til we try it out :p
Care to mention any of the spots you found?
Nope I don't care to mention at all, but actually instead of typing I story I'll make a compilation video of all the spots I've found (aside from The Gallows Gauntlet).. And then hopefully you can figure out whats what from the video.
Hilltop Mausoleum
Wow that... sucks lmao, thats very ironic really, but no big sweat if we can't ever do this.
The enchanted earth: but in the old method you had to ride the second lift all the way up before going into loop, which takes what, 10 seconds? Now you can start falling after getting off of the first lift. You only need to loop once anyway, no matter where you start the loop. Oh, and the fall would take less time since our starting position is way lower than the old one (I assume that Dan loops after hitting the lowest vertical position possible, which cannot happen any sooner, unless we find a way to fall faster - one way or another, AFAIK, your horizontal speed has nothing to do with how soon Dan loops).
Okay, your point about that is, it'll save time, and it will, but... Everytime I try to do it from the 2nd lift (the second you get to it), I end up dying when I to even get into the void.. Care to explain lol, how to do it? o_o
I actually got into loop mode on my first try in the lake, but went in the wrong direction and ended up somewhere on the opposite part of the level to where the exit trigger is, without encountering any solid kill triggers. That's as far as my research went for this level.
We know that the level loops vertically, but I wonder if we could loop it horizontally too, for example, what I mean is... Think of a piece of paper, say you're at the center of it, move your finger to the right, and eventually you're at the end, we'll instead of "falling off" you start back at the main beginning of the paper on the far left. In my experiences with making (not professionally, just a hobby :P), I know that the level is a predetermined huge grid that you've got to work with, however, I figured that about the layers too... Until we figured out the loop trick, now I'm skeptical if the level designers actually didn't start with a predetermined grid, due to the fact that we can "loop the level", so thats why I'm wondering about the horizontal looping.
Yeah, for the pools of the ancient dead you really just want to go as far as possible in a single loop. I'm not really sure what's Dan's horizontal speed after you do the inventory trick, so I can't tell how far we can go, but I'm sure this saves time one way or another since we can at least skip that annoying battle.
Hmm, it probably will, but with Kul Katura we can massively speed up the battle :p, though ofcourse, it is faster just to skip it entirely.. All will have to be tested :).
You can start looping in the room where you get the dragon armor, so it's a bit sooner than what you said, but I still doubt that it'd be faster than just running for the exit, unless the room is located horizontally-wise near the exit trigger.
Also, I never said that I got into loop mode in return to the graveyard - all the pits I've tried have solid ground underneath them (all the ones before grabbing the yellow rune, even if we could do it after that it would end up being slower than just proceeding normally).
:( ........
Yeah, I'mma try to do the skip, if so, no need to find oob areas because they'll really be no need for them. I'll showcase if I can't.
Also, thanks about that, I didn't know, I just assumed the conversation trigger stopped you :p.
And finally... You can do that from both sides, but I've found it faster to do it on the side without enemies.
I'll post back if I figure something out.
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Sticky wrote:
Congratulations! I didn't bother to read the essays, but it looked promising! :D
Lol, it's just cause we're trying to get to know the game inside in out together =p...
Anyways, groobo, I'mma go to bed for the night pretty soon, I've spent about 1~-2 Hours on trying to find an oob spot.. I find several that were in bounds of the level, but were never intentional for you to be there, which are near there oob borders... in the spot that I found that completely actually does go oob, it pushes you back into the level ( the one you found I'm sure), but you can get around that and go even further, which makes you lag walk but.. still no luck. But I won't give up til I find it!
Welp, i'll record a video tomorrow showing you all the spots I found, and what they do, and I guess you could help me figuring out whats what from there. Also, you DID say you got into the flaming gate without the dragon armor right? If so, can you show a screenshot of how? :p If I can get in there, chances are I can get out :P ... I'm assuming this level is near bullet proof, and I hope to God I'm wrong :P.
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I can do the time rune thingy in pumpkin Gorge, it's pretty easy to do, even in real time :).
Hmm, for Cemetery Hill, it probably would save time, because we've got to get the club and catch it on fire as well, with this skip we could skip that, get the talisman, and get out.. Getting the club in the Hilltop Mausoleum. Speaking about that level, I was wondering if you could fool around with the gate when you first enter the level (near where the boss is), if we could clip in there, it'd definately save quite a bit of time =p, but anyways.. back onto subject, though it'd only really help if we can't skip the Gallows Gauntlet, otherwise, it's obviously useless.. And for 100%, we need to get the chalice as well, so the point of it saving time, is if we can't skip the Gallows Gauntlet and if it's not on the 100% run.
With your new select thing I've figured out several several (yes 2 times) spots that you can use that, to where you'd normally die, but now "Loop" the level.
I'm pretty sure that you can start the loop sooner in the Enchanted Earth, but how I did it in the video is I dash not the way you showed how, but to actually use the frogs to up my speed to be able to dash farther than normal, which goes into the tree (where the exit is), and I just loop in that exactly same spot for a few seconds until the level loops. Which resulted in doing it in under a minute. Yes, possible to start the loop sooner, but for it to actually save time like how you're meaning, I'm not sure.
For the Lake, as to what I've understood, if you skip the death trigger and go into loop mode, it takes too long to get over to the exit, as well, the water in the level counts as solid ground, so... Whenever we loop the level, we will die when the level loops the first time.. Not even near the exit trigger, so our best bet is to go with the first trigger. (I may be doing it a slight different way than you if you managed to actually get there in loop mode faster than you should).
About pools of the ancient dead, I.. Hmm, I'll still try it both ways, and with the loop trick, I'll try to land right beside of death, but if not, it may just be faster to land right outside of the place where you get the helmet with the battle.
About the crystal caves, where the water is (say that you've just now got the dragon armor and are going to the exit) you can do the inventory glitch to perform the loop glitch there, but still yet.. It is, massively faster to just do the level by normal. So that means, we've got to do it right where you would use the star rune. As for what I've tried, nothing works, but I'll massively try non stop on the publication TAS if I've not figured it out before then.
I'll try to optimize the ruins as well, a simple version I'll do by maybe tomorrow night, and the flat out optimized one for publication.
Same goes for the ghost ship. And for return to the graveyard, I think it might be risky to try to skip that by going into the exit trigger if possible, because we don't know if it'll let us have dash.. I truly doubt it, and really the boss only takes less than 10 seconds to kill anywho. But, now that you figured out this amazing glitch, i'll have to mess around with it on alot of levels, and I'll give you my feedback after I test all of it out :). Same for the Ghost Ship. And Time Machine.
Now, for the rest of the night, I'mma finish my homework, and just try to figure out how to skip the Gallows Gauntlet, I feel that it's now possible with your trick. :) If so, I'll cry (in a good way :P)!
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groobo wrote:
My cpu overheats in like two minutes when running pcsx, even if I'm not recording. And when I try to record in epsxe with fraps/hypercam/camtasia/whatever the framerate drops to like 5-10/s. So basically my pc is too old to handle that crap - screenshots will have to do.
You'll really need some way of monitoring dan's coordinates while navigating through the void in the haunted ruins and the time device. The enchanted earth and ghost ship skips are pretty simple, compared to those two.
It would be worth checking if the pools of the ancient dead trick and the first trick in the lake are really faster then just grabbing the red rune or going through the building, respectively.
Yes, we can skip the boss in the ghost ship. And yes, we don't have to be on the train to trigger the exit in the time device.
For the gauntlet you'll have to try and get back from the dragon gate with frame advance and all that stuff. I've spent countless hours trying to make it work without those things and I never got even close. I was eager to try it out myself, but you know, an overheating cpu and having to reboot every two minutes isn't a good thing. My best bet will be to try and have the game misfire and somehow put me on one of the mentioned spots. IIRC the game does that from time to time.
edit:
Revisited the rest of the levels.
Pumpkin gorge:Go here (it's behind the hut on the right in the first area with buildings) and do a running jump towards the wall from the marked spot and drop in the exact same place (Dan should kinda slide up the wall during the jump). If done correctly, Dan should do his about-to-fall animation every full second. Now between those animations start running and make this jump so that you end up here and can jump in the arrow's direction. In a couple of steps you should encounter an invisible wall. It's not really a single wall, this screenshot should explain it. You have to clip between the walls towards the arrow's point (this is pretty random for me), otherwise you won't be able to go any further. If done correctly you should be able to run for a fair distance before getting to this spot. You have to jump above the blue line and after passing the house continue alongside the very edge of the wall you're on - if you fail to do any of that you will be warped back to the normal playing area. This basically allows you to run straight for the green rune. You complete the rest of the level as you normally would.
The sleeping village:
Although we can get up of the roofs and drop right by the gate with the exit trigger, I haven't found a way to clip through it and the last pack of soldiers that you have to kill to open it doesn't spawn until you do two things, though - so we can't complete the level early. The two things you have to do are: pick up the golden head item in one of the houses and flip the switch in the house with the safe which holds the shadow artifact. You can do those tasks in any order, but both have to be fulfilled for the last pack of soldiers to spawn. There's no trick to getting the golden head statue, but just today I found a way to get to the house with the switch early. Here's the sweetspot where you can clip into the tree (it's located on the road on your right when facing the fountain from where you start the level). Just make sure you don't overshoot it and clip through the tree entirely, so you don't get stuck. Just clip as far as you need to trigger the gate to open and simply run back. Remember: you only need to get the golden head statue and flip the switch in the house with the safe - from there you run straight for the last fight and exit.
Those are the last shortcuts I know of for this game, so unless you find out how clipping exactly works and we can implement it in more areas, if the gauntlet can be skipped is the last thing left to figure out as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks for helping so much, I'll first be able to make sure I can do all of these skips. I'll write down the 2 address that need to be watched here...
-000EE7AE (walking?)
-000F87F0 (walking speed?)
Those really, just tell you to make sure that you're moving, and in what direction, where the camera tries to constantly move (it may not be the same, but it surely helped out doing the Enchanted Earth skip).
The last thing we can hope for is just to skip the Gallows Gauntlet, because everything else is just trying to save maybe a second or 2.. Where as this knowledge can help us save 10+ minutes... I'm going to head over to my emulator and try and try and try... Wish me luck :D!
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Wren wrote:
*rolls eyes*
I knew it would only be a matter of time before somebody asked that. Personally I find the idea simply idiotic, always have and always will. If you want to enjoy the story you have three options. Option 1, go play FF9. This is the best option as you can actually talk to all the NPC's and such. Option 2, watch a Let's Play. This is in case you don't have the time or the game or whatever. It's basically the whole point of Let's Play's anyway. Option 3, just play the video back slowly during text. The logical option!
I perfectly agree with you on that, obviously there's no need at all to sit there and wait long enough to let others read what the characters, even in TAS speed (maybe a second to let them be able to pause) to read... Seriously, If I was watching the video, I'm not going to pause a 3-4 hour long video every second someone talks... So in the end, that really... Just don't even make sense.. If you want to see what they say, play the game yourself.
Also, no one is forcing you to watch anything... If someone wants to watch a TAS 12 hours long, they will do so. Even if in parts, they will do so... I surely can watch over 170 or more Naruto episodes in a month or 2, each being 23 minutes long... So I don't think that 720 Minutes is alot at all (we go double that in a day) compared to those 3910 minutes I've spent on Naruto, it's all about patience, and if you don't have it, don't watch it.
Also noted... A perfect game is defined as being perfect, logically, that means get the most of everything, while getting Excalibur II, in as little time as possible. This site usually demands full game plays, from power on to end of credits, but obviously, I'm pretty sure that this run in general, is really just focusing on getting Excalibur II, while doing the perfect game run. If so, then the run should end at the moment we get Excalibur II, and chances are, they'll accept the run (They do give special permissions)... That's how I'd put it. 99 of everything that you can buy, should be bought, otherwise it's not perfect, because you can improve it (by getting more)... Truly it is, for the most part ones opinion, but I think with frame advance, it might take maybe... 5 seconds? To buy 99 of buyable items... Just about routes really.
I really just think the point in the matter is people is saying it's too difficult, I truly don't think anything (logically speaking :P) is impossible... Even if it would take me a few days, I'd sure the heck watch this :)
Edit: If you guys are having desyncs, you could try on a BIN version of the game... I've had no desyncs ~at all~ doing my MediEvil TAS... So, maybe PCSX just hates ISO's? >_>
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Skychase my reply to you is in the one above where you posted.. The reason why I'm posting here is because I'll be posting the url of The Enchanted Earth skip (Yeah we finally did it man :D) ...
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMcMucXSsug
But (omg :D) (OMG) (OMG!!!), still for groobo, man try going into the TAS Graphics Plugin and click use system memory, maybe that'll work!! (Btw, if you didn't know, you gotta use KKapture to record PCSX .. Go File -> Movie -> Record AVI Help for more info :]
Welp time to record and upload the awesomeness.
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groobo wrote:
These were the settings I was using, so I just gave up on pcsx. Epsxe works great for me, but my pc still nukes whenever I try to record something so screenshots will have to do.
I would advise monitoring Dan's coordinates while oob with RAM watch or whatever. Without that you really won't know what is going on in the void.
Enchanted earth:Go here and do a dash jump at the last frame possible in the pointed direction. Once you pass the kill trigger you're on your own. Two things, though: While oob you have to be moving horizontally at all times (your hspeed has to be anything other than 0, to be more precise, otherwise Dan will die for some reason) - if you want to fall straight down, move in small circles. If your destination is too far away to reach in a single jump, make sure you don't land on anything and let the level "loop".
Pools of the ancient dead:
You can skip the red rune here. Do a dash jump and curve around the gate, like this. You do it exactly the same on your way back.
The lake:
Go to the general area where the exit is. You can skip going through the building with this jump - same method as the previous shortcut. For reaching the exit trigger early, jump between the crystals and the fissure on the left side of the door, then jump towards the fissure, then onto the roof. You should hit the exit trigger in two or three steps.
The haunted ruins:
You can't fall straight to the exit trigger in this level because it isn't loaded until you return the crown to the king's ghost. After the chicken herding, go up the wall, and do a jump like this - you won't fall but you will still trigger the demons to run for the switch which opens the gates (it's important to do this, otherwise you'll be stuck later on). Now go back to the bridge and curve around the side of the entrance with a dush jump to avoid the kill trigger, like this. You want to drop to the room with the crown and complete the rest of the level as you normally would.
The ghost ship:
Get to this spot, dash jump avoiding the kill trigger, fall straight to the exit.
The time device:
You can drop down avoiding the kill trigger right where you start the level. The lower part of the left-side wall isn't solid - you're safe to fall straight to the exit trigger once you go through it.
That's all for the levels we have to go through one way or another. I'll try to remember the shortcuts for the rest of the levels probably tomorrow.
I played around with the in-game cheat codes and found out that you can teleport anywhere with one of these babies, so I can do even more crude researching! Theory time: There are no invisible walls above the walls around the last gate in the gauntlet - this means we have to get to one of those spots. I already tested it and we can get to the exit from there. Also, going out of bounds is out of the question: this is one of the levels where the game warps you right back into the level's boundaries the moment you get out, even if you teleport 10k units away from the playing area.
I also had an idea for a small shortcut in the return to the graveyard level which would skip the yellow rune and all that stuff. Maybe it's possible to jump from one of the tombstone's on the lower level up to the cliff. With a dash jump I can easily do it - it's a whole different deal without it, though.
Wow, this is... Stunning, If I'm not mistaken, you've spared about 15 minutes off of the run just by finding this! lol I feel lazy now! I shall try your methods man, thank you very freaking much :) , I'll post back after I try all of this!
Edits: I've got 2 values which deal with Dan's speed, I really don't know what they mean... but atleast I know that they mean he's moving lol.
I'm working on the Enchanted Earth Skip, I... Edit: OMFG :DDDDDDDD I DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Video soon!)
Thanks for the tip on pools of the ancient dead, it'll save maybe a second or 2 :)
Thanks also for the tip on the Lake, this'll save some time maybe... 2-3 seconds, if that.
(The Haunted Ruins) Hmm... Couldn't we just shoot a shadow demon with the crossbow? It has the same effect =]. So basically, we can drop into King Peregrin's Room and just do the level as usual. Not bad :) Definately will save like 10 seconds or so.
For the ghost ship: We can skip the boss too right? xD
For the time Machine: We can complete this level without being on the train right?
For the stupid level (Gallows Gauntlet) that is standing in our way of pure awesomenesssauce... I really, just don't know... Our best bet is the flaming gate now, I suggest we just keep trying on it!
And for the return the graveyard, the level is definately suboptimal.. I like your idea, but, Idk about your idea without the dash jump (which we get at the end of the level)... It may work without it, but, I just really don't know, I'd have to try it out alot. The boss though is optimized :D (lol I know that had nothing to do with what you're saying, but just saying ^^).
Welp, Video of me Skipping the Enchanted Forest coming up within the hour!
skychase wrote:
The first official tas isn't even finished and you two already broke the game, it would be funny to find somekind of BLJ, Medievil in 10 mins xD.
Well you've helped some as well :). The reason why I want this TAS to be basically flat out optimized before I publish it, is because, this is one of those TAS's where, the author (me) wants it to stand, for as long as possible... Because this game is much more to me than just a game, because along with Spyro it's one of the first few video games I ever owned (still do). As for a BLJ lol in the sense of Super Mario 64, I don't see it happening x), it's possible with MHS but you know, it's not allowed xD... And like, I believe the end time of this is going to be somewhere around 20-30 minutes in the end :).
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Sticky wrote:
Did you ever try out charging daggers vs. releasing individual daggers against that one boss? I am curious if the programmers, in their finite wisdom, lowered the damage output of the daggers due the charged rapid fire. If they did not, I would think charging the weapon would be faster.
skychase wrote:
I skipped the shadow artefact !!! go to the bird nest and dash jump to the up-right corner of the screen, hold, wait few seconds, press jump again. You end there.
It's not the exit, but at least we have something to improve now.
screenshot.
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk227/skychase2rebirth/theere.jpg
can't do it again... FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...
forget it
ALWAYS record when trying things out. Comicalflop did the same thing, except in OoT, where he was able to zip up a ladder. As far as I know, he has still not reproduced that glitch. This was from 3+ years ago XD
Charging the weapon is faster, also it's faster to charge up the daggers, throw them at the boss's heart, then switch to the crossbow, and rapid fire.. So that saves some time ;) .
And, I do realize you're directing that at skychase, but I should be doing that as well, so I can figure out how I'm doing things ;), thanks for the tip sticky :D
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groobo wrote:
Turning on that cpu something option makes the game work, but basically kills my pc. Pcsx runs at 40fps top and that's with massive frame skipping and the no sound plugin, so any advice for getting better performance on this piece of crap would really help.
For now I figured out the boulder clip, here's a screenshot. Just make a running jump towards the marked spot - works every time. I'll try to get some videos up tomorrow.
Here's the settings I use:
PCSX RR Version 0.1.3
http://i55.tinypic.com/1zv66ia.jpghttp://i56.tinypic.com/63zo78.jpghttp://i52.tinypic.com/1ytqx0.jpghttp://i53.tinypic.com/2hcj9yh.jpg
With a BIN version of MediEvil.
And it works pretty good!
Note: Click Run CD, instead of running through the BIOS.. just in case.
If it doesn't work with those settings, I suggest going into the task manager of your computer and closing settings which take up use of your memory, definately do not try emulating while you have internet explorer, firefox, or another browser up. Just have the emulator up =p, If still nothing, It might just be your computer.
Edit: Thanks for explaining how to do that clip, It works everytime like you said! :)
Ps - Ever get it working :P??
My, it's like they aren't even trying
