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Relax :) maybe he works as a project manager in real life. The good fact is that this project could easilly die forever if Hat didn't help it's resurrection. And the other important fact is that Tee-N-Tee is way too skilled in terms of optimization — his level at this game is unreachable for most others, so, I can understand if Hat doesn't want this to turn into Tee-N-Tee's solo project after dedicating it incredible amount of time and patience.
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Guys... I want to explain why I call this glitch "monitor madness".
Just a few days ago I was sure I was a very experienced Sonic TASer who knew the game very well. Then I saw Kiske's TAS.
That TAS exploded my brain to a level, similar to what I felt after watching the famous bortreb's TAS of Pokemon Yellow the first time. Why? Because... I could maybe expect just some kind of a new strategy. New zip, for example. But what I saw was like a bomb. It destroyed all of my knowledge about the game's physics. A flat ground. A monitor. And Sonic running into it. Before that day I was 100% sure that there were no way to break that monitor without slowing down because of the RSC. What I saw looked crazy. I have no words other than "madness" or "insanity" to name that kind of thing. Because that thing had proved that Sonic game is just so complex that even very basic tricks are still discovered from time to time.
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Aglar wrote:
About the monitor thing, if you're 1 pixel in front of it on the frame before you hit it you'll catch some air and thus run again once you land. The adjustment of position needed for this is the answer to your others questions, except for the loop one which I simply didn't spend too much time on. That's the reason why I suggested you to work further on it, have fun ^^
Ok, boss, we will ^^
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WST wrote:
Beleive me, someday we’ll see Sonic finally break into the 0:14 area
Aglar wrote:
Here's something for you to work further on
Hey, Aglar! Out of curiousity, why did you miss a chance to take an extra boost at 0:04.49? In all honesty, I do not quite get it.
Anyway, congrats on finally aglarizing this being the first person on Earth beating EHZ1 as Sonic (ha! Sonic and Tails, not actually Sonic alone =P) in less than 15 seconds.
Also I really want to know, what’s the trick to break monitors in this crazy way, without getting affected by the rolling speed cap? I think you guys somehow roll for only 1 frame, but how does it happen?
And the last question: at 0:12.19 you jump, but can’t you just apply the “monitor madness” trick once again and then run up a slope and finish the zone exactly like in the current published TAS?
(upd) one more question: in the second loop, you let the rolling speed cap affect you for a few frames, doesn’t that slow you down? If so, is it done in the name of proper alignment or something?
Sorry, friend, I have so many questions… :)
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Here it is, Kiske. It is only 1 frame ahead of you at the point where it ends, but note that the X speed in the end is 4926, which is higher than yours (4745), which may allow further improvement.
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feeuzz22 wrote:
To me (and LTRP may confirm), the fastest pattern (considering subpixel climbing) as far as i remember is:
… … …
I made measurements some time ago, but I was writing all the data on a sheet of paper. I took the certainly best pattern, which gave (if I remember it correctly) average climbing speed of about 1.4 pixels/frame, and I applied it in my Knuckles TAS — in MHZ2. However, soon after that feeuzz22 had redid my part, and replaced climbing with his own. MHZ2 ending became completely his own job, and I did not care of it anymore. And, as you can easilly guess, I lost that sheet of paper since that time. Apologies about that. And also about the fact that I am lazy to redo it — the weekend is too short even just to relax, no mood to do such a routine work. So it’s better if one of you makes it.
The important fact about jump-climbing is keeping [^] pressed, which was missed (but later noticed) by TheYogWog during his work on his ring attack TAS.
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Economic crisis has strong effect on the quality of soldering alloys here. Since 2014, I notice heavy growth of the number of extremely bad alloys. Most of them seem to be pure lead. Even the ones marked as “lead-free”, can be pure lead — crazy.
(upd) damn, I hate solder mask… After a year of attempts, I keep doing it as crappy as on this picture…
(upd2) this is what happens if you use an operational amplifier with too high supply voltage. Happened to me yesterday, and I decided to reproduce it for YouTube.
Link to video(upd3) a little surprise =D sincere apologies about imperfectly etched traces
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Sorry, Kiske, I have to say that aglarizing this TAS is beyond my abilities.
At first, I went some pixels ahead of you, but then I saw how you broke the monitor at 0:05.43 and my brain exploded. The only thing I could say was “lolwut?”. Yeah, in the whole my experience of TASing this game I never saw something like that. So my improvement went to hell — I had no idea how to reproduce that madness. And I deleted the gmv and took yours.
Then I went to the loops. I couldn’t do it as good as you probably expect, and my final result is 0:15.21
Beleive me, someday we’ll see Sonic finally break into the 0:14 area. Amy and Knuckles already did that. :)
Anyway, now I only have one question: if I give you a gmv, which is very slightly (1-2 frames) faster than yours in the very beginning, could you please redo your monitor madness, because I have no idea how come that is possible :-D
This is my gmv without the beginning improvement — only second half improved. But if you help me to redo the “monitor madness”, I think we can make it in less than 0:15.20 :)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/552447788/kiske-wst-sonic2.gmv
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Hat wrote:
If you know another pattern faster and you can apply it, you are welcome to show it. Any improvement is accepted for a good submission.
Sadly, most time I am far away from my PC where I can TAS. So I cannot tell you exactly when I’ll have time to check it. Better if Tee-N-Tee answers that question himself; also, given the quality of most his runs, I think he knows what he is doing, so, the climbing may already be perfect.
Hat wrote:
And as for the capsule in CNZ2 is interesting moving the screen up to delete the animals fastly and show score bonus. Could be done at all stages, I'll try.
Sadly, in most places it’s not applicable, but you can try quickly spindashing (or flying) to the left just after breaking the capsule, this will make R-animals to disappear quicker, and then quickly move to the right, to make L-animals go offscreen. However, I did not actually measure if it saves any non-ingame time, as I used it only in just-for-fun projects, like this run:
Link to video
(upd) I have just checked it, and it does not seem to save any time for me. I simply got exactly same result. By the way, you usually cannot spindash when you break the capsule as fast as possible, because you are staying on it’s edge.
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Мне кажется, фраза «Посмотрите мувик по Super Mario 3, это идеальный пример» должна быть ссылкой. В остальном перевод годный, было приятно почитать, спасибо. Советы тоже хорошие — я эту статью на английском не читал, но в целом примерно такие выводы для себя самостоятельно и делал, когда учился.
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Good job, Tee-N-Tee! Just to clarify: are you sure that the jump-climbing pattern that you used, is the fastest? Some time ago I was doing some measurements and I think I used other kind of pattern, can’t remember all of the details though.
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I'll check it out and look if I could do something on weekend. I cannot promise you successful result, but I will do my best… :)
Btw you probably missed one place near the beginning, where you could take a slight boost, I will check it up as well.
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I think Tee-N-Tee could help us. He proved himself able to aglarize runs without Aglar. I could try myself, but I don't think I can do it — in fact, I already tried this route (will add a prooflink later), and got a result worse than yours.
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Oh, what a surprise!
The acceleration in the loops is based on utilizing as many short-jumps as possible, there are small corners which allow you jumping and immediately landing again, I think you already noticed that. Also, an important part of getting the speed over 5600 is using the slope before, which isn’t available in your case, so it may not be possible to get that kind of speed in your run, but well, your run already shows that Aglar’s TAS needs an update. BTW, there are also at least 2 improveable stages:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSiPFgAZX08
This is my testrun. CNZ2 boss is badly done, so, CNZ2 can be done in 0:37 or even 0:36.
Btw, the improvement is less than 60 frames, no?
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I am slowly working on an improvement of Sonic 3 & Amy any% TAS. And I managed to improve AIZ1, AIZ2 and HCZ1 by 5-10 frames. HCZ2 is not improved. I am proceeding to MGZ, which is improveable by at least a second, as DMTM claimed he had improved the current TAS time by 40 frames. I have no idea how long it will take to improve this stage, as I don’t have that much spare time and thus I TAS really seldom.
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Tee-N-Tee wrote:
WST, I don't quite get it. Are you implying that jpeg is a bad format?
Don’t take it too seriously, please. :)
Tee-N-Tee wrote:
Thanks, nice Freudian slip btw, this reminds me of a [URL=www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-nNgUfRf6E]Dean Martin song.[/URL]
Well… This was kind of intentional… And I think you could guess that, looking into my signature…
Love all of your improvements, are you going to polish the whole run? :)
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Hi Kiske. Please forgive me for the absense of activity here. I think the strategy used in the ringless run is the best known one. I suggest you doing it yourself, if at some point I decide to contribute, I will do it
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In HTZ2, I do not see a reason why it is not possible to use the ringbox zip, like in the current published Sonic 2 TAS. Knuckles has exactly the same hitbox size as Sonic, so, it should be possible, though I do not actually know what are the exact conditions to trigger it. Anyway, I am trying HTZ2 myself and I am more than a second ahead of you at this point, so, I will soon post my gmv, even if I fail that particular zip myself. I think it is worth to ask Aglar, Tee-N-Tee or marzojr how to do it.
(upd) here it is, feel free to improve it or leave it as is
Please note that the boss fight was done in hurry, so I may have lost some frames on the boss (1st hit), or the capsule. You may want to verify it.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
(upd2) this is what happens if you use an operational amplifier with too high supply voltage. Happened to me yesterday, and I decided to reproduce it for YouTube.
Link to video
(upd3) a little surprise =D sincere apologies about imperfectly etched traces
Nice improvement amyway. I wonder how much you can shave off from other parts, including mine, if you improved probably the best one (done by Aglar).