Posts for ais523

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Masterjun wrote:
ais523 wrote:
There's a reasonably clear routing error in this TAS, as far as I can tell. Isn't getting the trinket in One Way Room is faster than skipping it?)
It probably is faster non-TAS, but I tested it and this way was 4 frames faster than getting the trinket. The reason the non-TAS uses the other route is because there are these floors that move backwards. If you don't jump frameperfect it is easy to lose time :)
I was wondering about that. (Also if there's an in-game time / real-time distinction.)
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More thoughts about Water and Astral: If we can't use conflict on Astral, then bringing a tame monster through the portal with us isn't useful, so we won't need so many eggs on Water; one is all we'd need, and only to be able to drown faster. (We're using safe_teleds to aim for the portal, not enexto.) Having a peaceful or tame monster around would help with luck manipulation, but doesn't seem necessary otherwise. We could make the existing strategy work using the monster-push technique (which we've proved is possible but mindboggingly hard to manipulate) in order to give us a free action on Astral before the turn boundary. That way, we could put on a ring of conflict (we'd be in natural form at the time, so no problems with lack of hands), and still get to the altar by the end of turn 2015. Alternatively, we could dispense with the existing Astral strategy and use a figurine to create the following monster who'll attack us that we need. This would make monster-pushing impossible, AFAICT (unless we can do it off a tame egg-spawned monster who isn't used to conflict-attack us, or a Rodney summon); but it wouldn't matter so much, as we wouldn't need to spend the last action of turn 2014 putting on a ring and we could use it to just manually step next to a wall. Finally, is the possibility of triggering enexto off a random spawn on Astral, rather than dragging one from Water. We are, after all, spending a turn boundary to hatch the eggs, which should theoretically be possible to charge the monsters. I thought this was impossible because none could charge fast enough, but that actually seems not to be the case; vampire lords are both a legal spawn upon Astral level generation, and can legitimately appear arbitrarily near the player. I just thought of this today; there's something to be said for using the "crazy luck" approach rather than the "crazy preparation" approach. I haven't had time to test it yet, but it's looking like quite a serious possibility.
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There's a reasonably clear routing error in this TAS, as far as I can tell. Isn't getting the trinket in One Way Room is faster than skipping it? (As such, this run is a low%, not an any%.)
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In TAS terms? Even in realtime, most of the maps can be won in 3 turns, and I think 2 may be possible under TAS conditions even in the big one. (The secret is getting Guardian Charms early, and soloing as many maps with your starting units as possible on month 1, with as much recruitment as possible. Then you get your recruits to solo the remaining kingdoms.) Sometimes this requires recruiting specific Pokémon for specific Warriors, but that should be easily doable while you're unlocking the final story.
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Hmm. I just can't concentrate on watching this TAS all the way through. There are two problems: a) there's so much brilliant stuff going on that you can't keep track of it all, and b) the game's too long. Neither are the runners' fault, of course. But if I just sit back and try to let the game wash over me, I get bored. And if I try to focus on what's going on, I get exhausted. Perhaps the TAS would be better split into episodes, or something like that. (And now I don't know how to vote…) EDIT: (Oh, and my other problem: the music's good for a while, but it gets repetitive quickly, and there's not much the runners can do about that either.)
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The experience formula means it's sometimes worth considering a second Pokémon for fighting, as well as for PP management; unlike in previous generations, having to split experience between two Pokémon can sometimes be worth it. (I guess you could use a legendary, if there are any that aren't too far out of the way, but it might not be worth the effort.) Is it possible to get Bianca's Lilliup to oneshot the Purrloin? (Game Freak made that mistake back in Ruby/Sapphire. Perhaps they made it again; it's worth testing at least.)
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dwangoAC and I have both been busy, but what progress there's been has been debating how to handle Astral. We may resort to the figurine method after all. It only has a 1 in 9000 chance of working, but those odds aren't completely out of reach for a TAS, and luckily we have two degrees of freedom to line it up correctly (the RNG seed, and the turn we obtain the figurine). So the next step would be figuring out how to set it up, and then testing that it works.
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I was entertained (except while flying over or under the level). The level design isn't very Mario-like, but it does at least give a lot of opportunity to show off glitches in a condensed way.
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Heart piece duplication goes against the whole concept of a 100% for me, if you use it to fulfil the "100%" part of things. (I have no trouble with using it to get more maximum health, but the heart pieces are some of the most obvious optional objectives there are in Zelda games.) Glitching the percent counter to 100 != getting 100%.
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I think normally Nach handles those sorts of problems. Try contacting him.
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If you're going down that route, may as well just aim to display all the text in the game. (This would require playing on (U) so that it would be readable.)
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100% in the vast majority of games doesn't mean 100% map. Normally it translates to achieving all the optional goals of the game (as well as all the mandatory ones, but people normally assume those are required). The problem is defining exactly what an optional goal is, in the case of OoT.
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VarSword's brokenness depresses me :( You have to work with what the game gives you, anyway. Definite yes vote.
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I'd like every item to be obtained legitimately (see, for instance, Metroid Prime 2, where you can skip one item by glitching the percentage counter, and that's enough to completely change the route). I don't have any objections to using RBA to glitch the legitimately collected items out of your inventory and then back into it again. (The file should probably finish up at 100%.) I don't object to using it to restock on bombchus either.
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by putting on a ring
That takes an action. We could just about spare an action there, but it'd mean a lot more manipulation in order to get set up for Astral, but we'd prefer to investigate approaches that don't waste actions first. If we do spend an action, there are probably more effective ways to use it (in terms of reducing the luck needed).
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I think this is the perfect example of the sort of run we want in the vault. There are almost certainly people out there who'd want to know what a perfect SSB speedrun would look like, and no doubt some of them would even be entertained by it.
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And I haven't forgotten the run either. I've been really busy at work recently, but dwangoAC and I are still up for continuing, and might even have time for it soon. We hit a bit of a snag recently; it doesn't seem to be possible to manipulate the entrance to Earth correctly while using conflict. This is a problem with the current plan because we need conflict both earlier in the ascension run (the Quest) and later (Astral). We've already arranged to be able to lose arbitrary items (other than bulky equipment like armour) on the way up through the dungeon, so it's quite easy to get rid of conflict after the Quest without losing time. However, Astral's proving more of a problem. We're probably going to need to change our strategy for that; our current idea involves cursed figurines, but we need to check to see if the timer on the figurine can be stacked correctly with the egg timers to make it appear in the right location on Water.
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You can never prove that, unless the movie's so short you can brute-force. There might always be a faster way to do menuing you missed, or some glitch you didn't expect.
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nmaster64 wrote:
5+ Hour Prep File, still timed. Man up.
I am both amused and happy that someone would make verification runs in a single segment run, where you have to redo them on each reset (because otherwise it wouldn't be single segment), in order to count the time against the total time. Lends some perspective to the "a verification movie would take too much time" argument. I'd imagine for most games that are interesting to TAS, you can complete a game unoptimized, with occasional savestate use, way faster than you can make a remotely optimized TAS of it. (From my own experiences TASing: it's been over two years TASing NetHack so far, it takes me around 10 hours to complete single-segment.)
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Toufool31 wrote:
Also, how is this not different from getting 6 banana fairies to be able to FWG in DK64? ITS THE SAME PROCESS
I'm actually more inclined to think that the versions of FWG that rely on banana fairies should be banned, rather than this be allowed. In this case, there's more of a direct relationship between progress in the secondary save file, and progress in the game, though, so this case is even more dubious. (I guess if in the DK64 example, banana fairies were needed to unlock the weapons in a save file, the glitch would be dubious to the point of probably being rejected by the game's speedrun community. They aren't, though.) EDIT: Oh, and voting No just because a game's community is being annoying is not a good reason to vote. I haven't voted on this run yet, and am unlikely to before I understand all the issues.
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Cfox7 wrote:
It is not "copying" anything from the file. It is loading the overworld from the Tracks menu. The Tracks have their own overworld. The 47 file is only needed to have the tracks menu fully available. nothing is loaded from the file itself.
But the glitch wouldn't work if those tracks hadn't been unlocked. And the secondary save file is one from which the game could be completed very easily, right? Is the Tracks menu shared between all save files? Would it work if all the save files were erased after being created? If so, this is a bit more legitimate, and I'm more torn about whether it should be a legal category or not? If it wouldn't, then clearly something is being loaded from the secondary save file.
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Cfox7 wrote:
This glitch does not load the 47 balloon file. If it did then it would say that he had 47 balloons and all the amulets. It is loading the new file. He has 0 balloons and no amulets. The game is simply loading the state that the overworld is in and uses the Wrong Warp from a track to keep Player 2 in a plane in an area it is not supposed to be so he can fly over a wall into the final boss. Please don't accuse someone of cheating if you have no idea what this glitch is doing.
I agree that it doesn't load the entire file directly. It loads/copies parts of the file, via glitch, and those are the parts that are relevant to reaching the ending of the game. As such, the fact that other parts that aren't relevant to reaching the end of the game are not copied over is irrelevant.
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@Guga: don't worry, there's been a shitstorm on IRC, which we might paste into the thread. (I'm mostly arguing against the category, rather than the lack of a verification movie, which is fixable. It is, of course, important to check that the SRAM is legitimate, especially because there have been past submissions in which it wasn't *glares at RingRush*, but that's something that's irrelevant to the main thrust of my point.) EDIT: Swordless didn't want the IRC conversation posted, so I'll re-make my case in the thread here instead. I'm complaining about the category used by this run. Basically, what's happening here is that the run's copying information from another save file, and using it to complete the game, while apparently aiming for speed. First, if this were actually allowed within the game mechanics, it'd clearly be rejected as a run. It'd be the equivalent of loading up an SM64 file that was already completed, running up to the top of the tower, and beating Bowser to complete the game. Or loading up a Pokémon save file that was already complete, flying to the Elite Four, and beating the Champion with a squad that had already been ground up to level 100 with competitively relevant moves. OK, so technically you could call this "newgame+ completion", but it's not interesting; it skips the part of the game that you actually care about. And in particular, you can't consider this a sensible category for a speedrun, any more than "fastest death" is a sensible category; it's not even playing the majority of the game. In this case, a similar effect is happening via glitch. But we can look at similar glitches from other games, both tool-assisted and unassisted:
  • In the Super Metroid publication [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12, a glitch that relies on accessing uninitialized RAM is used. In order to set up the contents of the RAM, the run uses a second save file, and loads it and dies just before performing the glitch. Now, this isn't exactly the same sort of glitch as is used in this run, but noticeably, the second save file is produced during the run, via use of an in-game save, and the time it takes to produce that save is counted against the run. (And as this is the "fastest at all costs" category for Super Metroid, a very heavily competed game, it would make no sense to spend that time if it wasn't necessary.) The run is also considerably more entertaining completing the game on its own merits, without having to produce a second save file via magic (or dirty SRAM).
  • Donkey Kong 64 (which is sadly nonTASable because Mupen) has a glitch widely known as the "Funky Weapons Glitch", which is very similar to what's done in this submission: what FWG allows you to do is to start a new game, but with information from what you were doing immediately preceding starting that game to carry over. If you have a save file that's already complete, you can load and quit that save file while doing the glitch in order to have your newly started save file already have keys 3 and 8 (which is what's required to unlock the final boss), then merely buy moves and go defeat the final boss. The unassisted glitched speedruns of DK64 do not do this; instead, they copy over information from the game's multiplayer mode, in order to start with the weapons that are available in multiplayer, and still have to play through the game itself as a result (although that game is so heavily sequence-broken by now that it doesn't look much like a normal playthrough). And the reason, clearly, is that copying over completion from another file, even if it's done via glitch, defeats the point of completing the game; you already did the work of completing the game, but you're not counting it against the timing, so you're basically just misleading people about the clear time.
  • The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has a glitch (that also exists in several other Zelda games) known as the Back in Time glitch that makes the title screen playable. However, unlike other Zelda games, it's possible to use menus under Back in Time to the extent that it's possible to load a game from the title screen, and save the game from an in-game save point inside the (glitched to be playable) title screen, simultaneously. This causes the game to get confused and merge some information between the two save files. If the second save file is one in which much of the game has already been completed, it's possible to copy over cutscenes like this, which is valuable because cutscenes can have effects on the game (e.g. unlocking areas much later in the game), and a large proportion of the game can be skipped like that. However, Skyward Sword runners restrict themselves to using save files that they created during the run itself (which is still useful to unlock a couple of specific cutscenes, and to confuse the game as to Link's X/Y position as a particularly convoluted method of glitching through walls; interestingly, these uses of the glitch are typically called "speedrun-legal"). Again, this is for the same reasons as before; if you've already done the work of completing the game, and are merely copying your completion record across (whether via an explicit "copy saves" command, or via glitch), you're hiding a lot of time that's part of completing the run from the savefile.
So, what we've established so far is:
  • Newgame+ is not an interesting speedrun category in games that don't actually have a newgame+; at most, it corresponds to "load a savefile in which the game is already complete and go beat the final boss again", and it's even less interesting in games with no final boss.
  • Using information from another save file via glitch is no different category-wise from using it via a mechanism explicitly present in the game.
The conclusion here is that this submission is, if considered as a speedrun, lying about its time. It doesn't complete Diddy Kong Racing in less than 5 minutes; it takes an already-completed save file, and copies across information from it via glitch, leading to a game that's completed. (Such an apparent speedrun submission that lies about its time has happened before: #3519: RingRush's PSX Croc: Legend of the Gobbos "glitched" in 01:10.12 was an April Fool's video that worked via glitching the graphics so that it was unclear what was being done, and simply exited the save file and loaded a 100% save file near the end of the game while nobody could see that that was what was happening. It was a test of the system to see if the judge would catch the cheating.) This run is more honest about how the fast game end is accomplished, and is more interesting because it uses a glitch rather than loading the save file, but the time shown as a "completion time" is just as fraudulent. As such, this method of completing the game, because it requires the game to already be completed and then to do something extra, is clearly slower than just doing it normally, and thus isn't suitable for a speedrun. (If people that "fastest recompletions of a game using an already complete save file" is an interesting speedrun category, then they can feel free to make such runs for other games; it strikes me as hauntingly similar to the Speed Deaths Archive, and that was pretty fun too, with some interesting submissions, but the joke wore itself out eventually.) (Another example is the run linked from the postscript to the publication comments of [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12; I'm not aware of the exact circumstances of that run, but discussions with others lead me to believe that it glitches back to the start of the game from a file that's already 100%, and completes the game faster from the "start of the game" because it already has all the items. But the game has of course been played up to then in order to obtain all the items in the first place, so it makes no sense to consider this some sort of "fastest Super Metroid completion".) The other potential category that this run could be considered in would be as a glitchfest; although the fact that it completes the game is pretty much irrelevant, it does show off an interesting glitch. However, glitchfests should show off more of the game's glitches than this one does; a glitchfest that just shows off one glitch is about as interesting as a speedrun that only completes one level. That is, not without merit, and interesting to watch, but not worthy of publication. As such, I conclude: this isn't a real category, it's more of a WIP. Merely showing off one glitch, and not using the fastest route, does not a publishable TAS make.
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Thanks, I think I have a better idea of how the game works now. I'm not as convinced as Nach that discrete maths is so useful here. You can definitely work out routes through the level disregarding enemies like that, but there are likely way too many possibilities in even simple levels to brute-force it based only on the grid shape.
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Is this possible in S3&K, as well as just S&K? I love the concept, anyway; it's very different from the other runs, and if it were optimized, it'd almost certainly be accepted. Great testrun/routeplan run even as it is.