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Thanks for your comments.
Tristal wrote:
1) How exactly do you perform the de-equip glitch? I saw your first demo of this and still wasn't sure what was going on.
2) Why reset before Guardian (and Masamune), is it to reset the critical hit tables?
1)All right, I'll write down precisely about what was going on behind the trick. If you press R and ^ or L and v at the same frame on the equipment screen, it comes about that the previous character's equipment is remained on the left section. Under this condition, you can call on the left screen even when you don't have extra equipment, which enables to equip a character with nothing.
2) Exactly. As for the Guardian battle, Crono uses only three crits without the reset. To make matters worse, He will attack the Guardian at the beginning of the battle and trigger a counter-attack. There is no way to maniuplate it, which means you wouldn't use Berserker strategy and would lose a ton of time there unless you don't use save/reset before the battle.
The same goes to Masamune. If you enter the battle without the reset, Crono never get a crit on the first battle. Also, This reset is really helpful for getting probably the best RNG for Flea and Slash battle without another reset.
Saturn wrote:
The only thing I wonder is, why didn't you use Robo during the Reptite fight right after you visit 65000000 B.C. the first time, to kill them all with one single Laser Spin attack?
It's just as Nitrodon said. If Robo are in the party, Ayla walks around Robo in a circular path and extra dialogue happens. It causes the serious delay, about 950 frames or so, while it is at most 300 frames that you will lose on the two battles without Robo. So it will be optimal not to use Robo on those battles.
Hero of the Day wrote:
It almost seems like the characters are strong enough at this point to simply take on lavos right now. If dark matter does such little damage, Lavos' magic based attacks are sure to do very little also. Is this feasible, or much higher levels must be gained before challenging lavos?
Well, serious leveling up would be still necessary. The most reason is that the trick only works on Lightning, Water, and Shadow for some reason. As you can see, Door of Dome is based on non-elemental, very unfortunately. That means Lavos' attack will do four digit damage and sweep out your party as usual even if you use the de-equip trick. So I'm almost certain it is inedivable to continue soooo boring repetitive battles at Tyrano Lair for about 30 minutes. Sigh.
Dromiceius wrote:
I've written a Lua script, the purpose of which is to show interesting information during the movie.
That's awesome! I've tried out your script and found it could make the run very informative. Thanks a lot.
By the way, I just found an invalid enemie's Hp appears at Arris Dome Rafters if you press the down key there. Here are scripts to fix the problem, I'm not sure this is the right solution though.
local location = memory.readbyte(0x7e0100)
if location == 221 then enemies[3] = 0 end
Regarding the characters naming, Yes, it's true that it would save a lot of time from the whole run if you give all charaters one character name. But, to be quite honest, I don't really feel the need to do that. It's based on the same reason that I didn't choose using the Japanese version just because it has less texts. I remember seeing Earthbound run used the real names as well. So I don't think this is a weird case for RPG run at least. Of course, it's just my opinion, and I can see that Deign's statement also made sense. I may consider using it to achive lowest frame counts if I decided to make the skip-trick run for the future, but never this time.
And Aglar, you don't really have to feel rude or whatever at all. Any suggestion about the run is always appreciated.:)
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Sorry it took so long. As I've promised, now I release my test run WIP from begining to Magus battle. Here it is.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/604092559/inichi_chronotrigger_testrun_WIP.smv
To correctly play the movie, you need a Snes9x featuring reset-recording. I think improvement 11 would be fine. Also, as you probably see, this movie is completely different from WIPs that I posted in last Autumn. The reason is that new findings were so many that I felt a strong need to redo the run from the scrach to be of practical use when making the final run.
-Some time comparison
At the end of Magus battle, my test run is 79719 frames or about 22 minutes and 9 seconds faster than Hero of the Day's run, and also approximately 16 minutes faster than my console run on SDA on the in-game clock.
I'd say it won't be long before the next WIP is coming since now the most difficult part is over, and it will be far easier to make the remaining part. I hope I won't get lazy about the run:)
Enjoy.
SaxxonPike wrote:
That de-equip trick... are you planning to use it more than once?
Yeah. The trick makes it possible to pull off massive magic damage and extremely high magic defence, both of which are impossible to get in normal play. So it would be a waste not to use it more than once. I'm planning to use it a few times at different places, ignoring some time consumption.
For your reference, here are all points that I used the de-equip trick in my test run:
Before Yakra battle, at Melchior's Hut, before Nizbel battle, before Flea battle, and after Slash battle.
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Jamma wrote:
This de-equip trick, can it be used throughout the game, or just at certain points?
To pull off the trick, it is required that you don't have any extra armor and helm that a charcter you use the trick can equip. That is, once you use the trick, you never use it unless you sell the extra armor and helm or equip the non-equippd character with them. So, some equipment management will be necessary to properly use it.
I just made a demo so that you can see how the trick works.
here
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Thanks Saturn.
The deequip trick itself is a well known trick which is posted on some Japanese CT sites. However, I've never considered using it until recently, since I thought it's just a waste of time, though it has actually an amazing effect as I described.
So non-equipment is the strongest equipment in Chrono Trigger (U). what a game:)
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SaxxonPike wrote:
I'm curious as to the progress of this run. Any word?
Sorry for the delay. Magus's castle was much more troublesome than I had assumed, but that was almost done. Within a few days, I'm going to release my test run WIP from the start to Magus battle, including some new timesavers and a newly-found cool trick which only exists in the English version. As for the new trick, that is REALLY useful. Please let me explain about the detail.
First off, you'll need to take off armors and helms of your characters, using a deequip trick. Even if you are done with that in the Japanese version, nothing changes, while, in the English version, that will double your character's magic damage, and also that will cut about 90 % off enemy's magic damage except for Fire and Non-Elemental. Needless to say, that saves a ton of time for almost all the battles, especially for boss battles that magic is heavily used such as Heckeran and Magus.
I'd reckon this trick would shave off at least 6 minutes, perhaps more. I've seen many controversy whether to use (J) or (E) happening here and there. However, at least in Chrono Trigger, we don't need any more such discussion, since now the English version is definitely the best choice in terms of both time and entertainment.
All boss were beaten incredibly faster than usual, and some of them were improved on the minute time scale.
Just wait until you see it.
[edit]
I think I should introduce a new trick that Roydy, a Japanese speed runner of Chrono Trigger, found a while ago. That makes one enemy disappear from the screen on the first battle in Magus's Castle.
here
It's important to note that it's very hard to pull off this trick even with tool-assisted, but he did it on console. Also, you can see the Rocket Roll damage is boosted than usual. That's obivously a result of using the deequip trick.
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For you are interested in what Mister's new technique is like, that's actually exactly the same with what I've found. It seems he found it one day earlier than me, so I'm almost certain that it's not me but Mister who discovered first it. Funny I didn't notice that until I just read Gocha's post and visited Mister's HP.
Of course, that's not a big deal, since I think the most important thing is the fact that the as-yet-unknown trick has been revealed, which will push one of the most highly optimized run to another level.
Let's look forward to seeing it.
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Saturn wrote:
I actually used the Berserker alot on boses in my 8-segmented unassisted 100% run, which was done a year before hero did his any% TAS here. I think he mentioned to get this idea with the Berserker from my run at first.
Did you ever! Then you are a really leading pioneer in CT run. Robo's perfect Crisis Arm strategies sound fascinating, so I'll probably watch your 100 % run within a few days, hoping to get some hints for my any% run like Hero did it. Thanks for the link.
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Floogal wrote:
Sorry to be treating you as an encyclopedia, but I have a few more critical-hit questions:
No problem :)
- Wondershot, Valkerye, Siren are diff. from Marle/lucca's normal weapons?
Yes, those weapons boost their crit rate from the ordinary one to about 123/256 or about 48.04%.
- Robo's Crisis Arm has a low crit rate?
Yes. Crisis Arm cuts Robo's crit rate by almost half in exchange for its powerful attack. A new crit rate is 18/256 or about 7.03 %, the worst crit rate of all weapons.
- Crono's Kali Blade have higher rate?
Yes. Kali Blade raises his crit rate to the same level with Marle, Lucca and Ayla at level 19-23, 63/256 or about 24.60 %.
- Apparently, Ayla gets fist upgrades (with higher crits) at levels 24, 48, 72, and 96...?
Yes. Her crit rate changes at the levels that you just stated. Specific values are like this.
Lv18-23: 63/256 or about 24.60 %
Lv24-47: 78/256 or about 30.46 %
Lv48-71: 93/256 or about 36.32 % (Same with Crono with the Swallow)
Lv72-95: 108/256 or about 42.18 %
Lv96-99: 33/256 or about 12.89 %
It is interesting to me that her crit rate increases at a rate of about 6.14 % each upgrade until the 3rd one. As well as the weapons mentioned above, Slasher 2 leads the change of crit rate, which increases Crono's crit rate to 69/256 or about 26.95 %.
- Does the Beserker actually increase the Crit Rate?
No. Berserker actually doesn't affect the Crit Rate at all, though the fact would still remain that it is the most useful accessory in a CT run because it allows an equipped character to make an instant and massive attack. It's one of Hero's great findings, I think.
Also, I have to admit that what I told you about the relation between the Berserker and the Crit rate on SDA was just an assumption, sorry.
To be quite honest, I'd love to hear all of your hacking results. If I share this with anyone, I'll be sure to credit you.
I wish I could, but I don't have a detaild knowledge about that kind of thing, so that's almost all I got. Of course, if I find something new and interesting in the future, I'll be glad to share it with everyone.
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moozooh wrote:
Can this data be used to improve the newgame+ run?
Well, it may be difficult because of Shiva Edge's poor critical hit rate, though I don't think it is impossible.
For now, here is a critical hit table of Crono with the Shiva Edge:
1 9 10 13 18 46 54 57 69 74 76 110 122 123 142 152 154 168 176 183 184 212 215 218 24/256 or about 9.37%
In order to improve my new game + run, it is necessary to get one more ciritical hit somewhere in a timely manner.
Just a thought, select the savedata on the timing that 7E29AD takes 121 (For your reference, in using new game + mode, the value you can take on the fastest timing is 13 instead of 5.)
And then use Marle's one critical hit, Crono's two critical hits and Ice Sword 2 on the Shell Lavos battle. It would be probably faster than my run until that battle, though I have no idea if you are able to get critical hits on the preferable timing on the other two battles.
Perhaps, I may try to improve it after I finish making an any % run or if someone is interested in it, I'm willing to support him/her.
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Jamma wrote:
You have another fan :)
I've viewed pretty much all of the testing so far, and I'm impressed to say the least. Anyone who puts in this much effort into a lengthy game like this deserves a bit of support, so here's mine.
Thank you Jamma！ your support is really helpful.
Floogal wrote:
Wait, if I'm counting right, does that mean Crono and Robo have an almost 13% critical hit rate?
Yes. More precisely, it is about 12.89%, and that table is also shared with Magus and Ayla with the Bronze Fist.
I'm assuming that those listed crit-tables change if, say, Masamune-Frog equips the Hero Medal, or Crono equips the Rainbow?
Yeah, if you equip Crono with the Rainbow, his critcal hit rate vaults from about 12.89 to 197/256 or about 76.95 %. Masamune-Frog with the Hero Medal also gets a higher critical hit rate than usual, which is 153/256 or about 59.76%.
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Bisqwit wrote:
Hi, how's the progress?
And 新年あげましておめでとう :)
Hi, Bisqwit, sorry for the late reply, and 明けましておめでとう though it's too late to say it. :)
As for my testrun, sorry it has made little progress. The reason is mostly my laziness as you probably imagined, but other than that, there are.
Yes, I revealed critical hit tables of all characters, and found another three avoidable fights that you normally can't run away, which forced me to reconsider all boss strategies from the scratch.
First, here are the critical tables of characters who are directly related to any % run.
Crono and Robo:1 3 9 10 13 18 37 46 48 54 57 59 69 74 76 96 110 122 123 129 142 152 154 156 168 176 181 183 184 212 215 218 235
Marle, Lucca and Ayla (Level19-23): 1 3 5 8 9 10 13 18 27 28 33 36 37 38 46 48 52 53 54 57 59 68 69 74 76 77 81 88 96 105 106 110 113 116 119 120 121 122 123 129 139 142 152 154 156 164 168 176 181 183 184 190 197 212 215 217 218 224 226 235 239 241 255
Frog: 1 3 5 8 9 10 13 18 20 27 28 33 36 37 38 42 46 48 52 53 54 57 59 68 69 74 76 77 80 81 85 88 96 100 105 106 110 113 116 119 120 121 122 123 129 139 142 152 154 156 163 164 166 168 173 176 181 183 184 190 196 197 212 215 217 218 224 226 235 239 241 255
I'm not sure this is the right explanaion in technical terms because I'm newbie about those things , but here I try.
When a fight starts, 7EB3E6 takes the same value with the one stored in 7E29AD. That's a starting value of the battle and correspond the above chart. Also it increases one by one everytime your character attacks. For exapmle, When the value is 8 at the beginning of a battle and you use the 1st attack for the battle, Frog and Lucca's attack will always be a critical hit, while Crono's attack will never be a critial hit. On the other hand, you will always pull off a critical hit from all three characters for the 2nd attack because the value 9 guarantees all characters a critical hit.
A value stored in 7E29AD is the same with the one that 7E0026 took when the last battle finished. And, when a fight starts, 7E0026 also takes the same value with the one stored in 7E29AD and it'll add some numbers in itself every time your character and enemies attack. So, it will be necessary to be careful of what value 7E0026 takes in a battle in order to pull off critical hits as much as possible on the next battle.
It is also important to note that a value 7E29AD corresponds one-to-one with a timing that you select a save data. For example, if you save the data, reset and select it on the fastest timing it'll take 5, on the next frame, it'll take 6 and so on. That is, you can raise the proportion of critical hits in a battle, using the save, reset and load method in advance, that won't save a great amount of time though because it takes 400 frames at least to do a series of actions. In addition to, it is impossible to turn all attacks to be critical hits as you can see the above chart.
Second, about another three avoidable battles. One is in Cathedral and two are in Reptite Lair.
CathedralReptite Lair
Unlike other avoidable battle I found, you can't normally run away from those battles, so you'll lose some exp by avoiding those battles, which makes a party's level on some boss battles lower than usual. This is the reason I had no choice but to reconsider and develop somewhat new strategy for all boss battles.
Finally, about the current situtaion of the run. It was not much problem to develop new strateges for up to Masamune with lower level, using save/reset method (Feel free to tell me if you'd like to see them.)
So, the current problem is to get good RNG for Nizbel,Flea and Slash battle. For now, here is the fastest strategy for Nizbel battle I could get, but unfortunately, which makes the RNG you'll get for Flea and Slash battle VERY bad. So I'm considering these two plans: Save the data before Magus's castle to manipulate the RNG or use a somewhat slow strategy for Nizvel and get a better RNG for Flea and Slash battle instead. some test will be needed, anyway.
If I reach to the final conclusion, I'll post a WIP which contains those boss battles.
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I've discovered a way to skip a conversation with Doan at Arris Dome, which occurs when you try to go down the ladder.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1263343824/Doan%20skip.smv
I'd say this trick will save at least 500 frames. Also, I've found the other cutscene at the same spot is skippable in a similar way, but, very unfortunately, it's impossible to go beyond Lab 32 unless you get the Bike Key from Doan. That means you have to make that cutscene happen to push forward the game, anyway.
As for the progress of my test run, sorry, the progress is very slow due to my laziness. In addition, I have invloved in doing the minor optimization of here and there. Here is one example of those minor optimizations, and it has a noticeable difference from the usual way.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/125747318/Optimized%20avoidance%20of%20the%20Proto%20enemies.smv
If I may add a little explanation, you don't have to thoroughly walk to avoid the enemies at Proto Dome, which would save about 90 frames in total, since I'm going to get past those enemies three times in my TAS.
I hope to post a WIP of my test run containing the Nisbel battle, possibly more boss battles within a week or two. For that purpose, I'll do my best.
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Aznxknight: Aside from the discussion about fastest time, I'm really interested in your methods. I have been working for Chrono Trigger any% run for these three months. And, now I'm at test phase to discover new tricks, to develop new strategies for mainly bosses, and to find the best possible movement of characters almost everywhere.
So, all new findings are very much welcome whatever it is. Please feel free to post them to the Chrono Trigger thread in SNES games.
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Floogal wrote:
Where is this master document where every game mechanic is listed? I'd love to read it (English only, please)!
Ah, those values are just my assumption, and I have never heard any such document exists. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'll try to fix it:
> Swallow is an extremely useful weapon for any CT speed run because it increases Crono's Attack power 1.5 times as large as Slasher and boosts his speed +3. In addition, Swallow somewhat increases the rate of Crono's critical hits, and I guess it will be around 15%.
If one doesn't yet exist, then you should really make one. I'd be happy to clean up the english for you.
Well, my knoledge about Chrono Trigger is only confined to an area where is related to any% run, so I'm not sure I can write a comprehensive document which would meet your hope.
Shadow Byrn wrote:
Perhpas he could use this "skip" glitch to gain quick access to items and stuff but not use it to skip the boss? Or is using it at all totally out?
Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was that I'd never once use the skip-trick in my run. Hope this answers your question.
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Thanks a lot, Moozooh, Kyrsimys and Hero! You really made me free from my worries. Now I feel I can work on the run on a new note.
moozooh wrote:
Hmm, what if you make a submittable run using the skip and include the demos of everything you have skipped with it in the submission message? It seems that way you'll kill both birds with one stone: the run will be as fast as possible and all the new battle strategies will be easily accessible to everyone willing to watch them.
I find the idea interesting, and I like the concept of killing both birds with one stone. Even though I'm afraid I can't realize it this time because of my decision about the attribute of the run, I'll keep that in mind for the future. Thanks.
Also, speaking of Yakura, I remember I found a way to get inside the walls of Cathedral and run around in it a while ago. Although I wasn't able to find any use on it, it's still really interesting. So I'll post it for the record.
Here
Question: are there any really cool items/weapons you could get with this new glitch? Like stuff that you have to go past a certain point to get, but the game stops you?
Yes. Forest Ruins event skip is just the thing.
As you can see, Swallow is an extremely useful weapon for any CT speed run because it does Crono's Attack power 1.5 times compared to Slasher, boosts his speed +3, and also increases his critical hit rate by 10-15%.
Also, as for the rest of skippable cutscene by using the skip-trick. Here are all of them I have found so far.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/940522340/Guardia%20prison%201.smvhttp://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1426231771/Guardia%20prison%202.smvhttp://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/186477352/Heckran%20Cave.smvhttp://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/544544263/Laruba%20ruins.smvhttp://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/753748503/Melchior%27s%20Hut%202.smvhttp://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/834009490/Sunken%20Desert.smvhttp://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1820778243/Zenan%20Bridge.smv
I guess that more sequence break is possible in the latter part of the game, but unfortunately they are not useful for any% run at all.
Also, After I give myself about two weeks and ponder over the issue over and over, I made up my mind:
I'll make a run not using skip-trick at all.
Please don't get me wrong. I fully understand that there is no doubt that the glitched run would definitely be the best one in this case, and, I wish I could make it. However, to be honest, I'm not at all sure I would have kept enough motivation to do crazy optimization, rather, finish the run if I choose making the run using the skip-trick fully. Perhaps, I may not submit the movie because it will contain obvious improvements all over the place due to not using the skip-trick.
I'm sorry for making the decision which might be unacceptable for most people here.
Someday I may feel like working on a glithced-run, maybe not, but, whatever the case may be, I'm certain that my current test run and final run would be helpful for someone who will work on the run with full-glitch and aim for the fastest time in the (near) future. I have hoped for seeing the limit of CT since I got interested in CT speedrun. That is why I have not kept almost all new tricks and strategies to myself and made them public. So, I'll make 100% effort to finish my run for that purpose, anyway.
Under these circumstances, I back off from an earlier statement that I would make the test run using the skip-trick as much as possible. And I'll soon resume the current test run from the end of Masamune battle. I hope that would be a good one because I have already found a new strategy for two Reptites fights, which would be about 100 frames faster than the current one using Robo's Laser Beam twice.
Now I'm wondering if there is somebody who still keeps up interest in my run and it is all right to post the progress of my testrun on some regular basis as before.
I'm willing to accept any criticizm over my decision. Sorry.
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ElectroSpecter wrote:
By the way, can the menu glitch be used to skip any forms of Lavos? :)
You can use the menu glitch and get on Shell Lavos' face before the fight starts. However it seems the entrance into his body only works after you beat him. So you can't skip Shell Lavos after all. Regarding the other forms, as Saturn predicted, there is no room to use the glitch. Here is an attempt to try to skip Shell Lavos just for fun.
here
And thanks a lot everyone for your comments!! I see the point of hero and Bob A is very consistent and reasonable. I still think it's not bad idea to remain only Boss fights for entertainment. However, I've noticed a very strange thing happens then, you fight only Zombor on the Zenan Bridge despite of cutting out two normal fights there by using the glitch. So, I'll probably make a choice either the run using glitch as much as possible or the run not using glitch at all as my final run.
So everyone, could you give me a little longer to think about it? Since now I don't even know how many frames are saved by cutting out the three boss fights. I'm now thinking about of making another testrun with using the glitch fully alongside the current testrun with not using the glitch at all. I think it's not too late to make a decision even after we compare the both frame numbers.
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Thanks, everybody. Here are some sequence break that the trick makes it possible.
The info center Crono, Lucca and Marle decide to change history without watching the video of Lavos.
Melchior's Hut Melchior repairs Masamune without using Dreamstone.
Forest Maze You can get Kino out of the way without chatting with him.
These are just a part of which I have found that this trick can be used. I'll post the rest of them later.
Also, if you don't limit the occasion to use this trick to timesaving purposes, you can cause more chaotic thing to the game. For example, if you use this trick at the Telepod area, the second Marle appears there, and you can go to mid era with one Marle following the other Marle, the game crashes soon though.
laughing_gas wrote:
Inichi have you started recording yet or are you still in the testing phase?
I have not started yet. I think I'll be able to make a decent quality run if I should start the recording right now. However, I feel more test will be needed in order to make a highly optimized run. It will take a couple of months at least until I start to make the final run. Sorry for my laziness.
hero of the day wrote:
It is a shame at the same time too, because the awesome strategies that your made for some of the boss battles will never be seen. Have you decided for sure that you will be using this trick in your run?
I'm glad you liked my boss strategies. Then, I think you'd like this new Zombor strategy, which is 634 frames faster than previous one.
Zombor battle v3
As for using this trick in my run or not, well, I have not decided yet. I think I may use it except the boss battles. The reason is that boss battles are usually most entertaining in any RPG run, and it is significiant change that three boss battles disappear from the run. On the other hand, as I showed above, you can make the boring events shorter and more entertaining by using this trick. Anyway, I'd like to hear everyone's opinion about this issue. Thanks in advance.
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Everybody, I have managed to entirely skip Guardian, Zombor and Nizbel 2 by abusing the menu screen . Here it is.
Guardian skipZombor skipNizbel 2 skip
Other than those bosses, this trick makes it possible to break a lot of sequences and save a ton of time. I'll post some of them later.
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hero of the day wrote:
Very nice strategies inichi :D
As for using the 1.51 version of snes9x. I managed to make a 10 minute long movie of Chrono Trigger without experiencing a desync. Apparently not every game is plagued with the desync issues. If 1.51 is more accurate to the actual snes timing, I would be all for using it. I guess more testing may be needed before we know for a fact that CT is not one of those desyncing games, since I was able to get past 10 minutes in my Super Metroid run before experiencing my first desync.
Thanks for the info, hero. It's good to know that you didn't experience any desync in 10 minutes on 1.51. Then I'll make a movie until the trial as a test on 1.51 before I resume the testrun, since I just feel the need to check how the two battles in Guardia forest changes because of skipping the battle in Truce Canyon and I also have a new idea to try on the trial. It will be about 20 minutes and I think it's enough length to decide whether the desync happens or not on 1.51.
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All right, the Zombor battle has been dramatically improved by combining RedKatana and Berserker. Moreover, I have developed a new strategy for three bosses up to Zombor. Here it is.
Guardian battle v2R series battle v2Heckran battle v2Zombor battle v2
Surprisingly, those new strategies don't influence on the next battle at all. Crono's critical hit still occurs only twice in the Masamune battle and generated damage numbers are totally the same with the WIP I posted before. So, I'll probably be able to add them to the final version without a hutch.
Please let me explain about the logic behind the new strategies.
Guardian: I replace Lucca's normal attack to the left bit with Flame Toss, because it enables to use one more Marle's attack in the countdown time without losing Crono's critical hit. Poor Guardian breaks down before even reviving the bit. about 300 frames saved.
R series: Lucca with Berserker and Plasmagun is capable of killing R series in one shot after you use Cyclone, which decreases the number of R series' attack in the front row from three times to once. Also, even though the battle itself is shorter than the previous one by 220 frames, unfortunately, it costs 195 frames to equip Berserker and Plasma Gun with Lucca in advance, and 6 frames are needed to remove Berserker at Melchior's Hut. But it would be still 20 frames faster than usual strategy.
Heckran: If you give Bandana to Marle, she can get enough speed to attack twice between Heckran finishes the counterattack mode and it uses second Cyclone, which enables to use Ice as a final blow and make it with Mid Tonic instead of Aura Whirl as the second healing. Aura Whirl has a longer animation than Mid Tonic as it looks, so you can gain another 200 frames here.
Zombor: Back to a strategy which is similar to hero's. Crono with Berserker and Red Katana does the massive damage to Zombor that you don't have to use Fire at all. PlasmaGun is also useful here because it makes it possible to replace Crono's one physical attack with Lucca's one shot. Also, I delayed the timing to use Crono and Lucca's attack in the fight with three Rancers in order to move up the timing that critical hit occurs on the Zombor battle. This is why Crono's critical hit happens at the best timing. About 1270 frames saved. Even if you subtract the time it will take to equip and take off Berserker before and after the battle, it's still at least 900 frames faster than the previous strategy.
By the way, I have noticed that the intro scene of CT desyncs on Snes 1.43. In other words, The demo movie finishes before the music ends. I'd guess that Snes 1.43 doesn't accurately emulate the fade-out lag on console, because I found that the opening scene normally syncs on 1.51 like the console, and the fade-out lag on 1.51 is usually longer than the one on 1.43 by 2-5 frames, I may be wrong.
I'd personally prefer to use the emulator which emulates the console more accurately even if it gets slower by a minitute or two. However I have heard that the desync frequnetly occurs on 1.51. So now I'm unsure whether to use 1.43 or 1.51 in the final run.
If you have an opinion, please feel free to post it.
Thanks.
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Thanks for your comments, Ren. and Thanks a lot Nitrodon for making a quick and precise answer for Ren's question.
1),2). Nitrodon is quite right. I'm going to fight Lavos in the "Break the seal" chapter without getting Epoch. So, it is impossible to steal Black Mail from Son of Sun, besides that, it is actually less helpful for the Lavos battle since Lavos doesn't use a Shadow attack except when it takes the Magus or Giga Gaia mode. On a related note, other than Vigil Hat, I'm going to pick up Gold Earring and Lumin Robe at Aris Dome to survive inner-Lavos' Doors of Doom. Also, if you are interested in how I beat Lavos at such an early stage of the game, you might want to watch a segment 32 and 33 of my CT run at SDA.
http://speeddemosarchive.com/ChronoTrigger.html#norm
3). Nitrodon is exactly right again. As far as I know, when you can get a critical hit in a battle is already decided when a previous battle finishes, and it is absolutely impossible to manipulate it except for inserting another battle between them. As for the above Masamune battle, Crono's critical hit occurs only when you use a 4th and 18th physical attack, and it never changes whatsover. I'd guess some table about critical hits may exist and it may be used in order every time you use a physical attack, I could be wrong though.
By the way, I have just discovered a new MASSIVE timesaver. The fight with two Blue Imps or two Imp Aces at Truce Canyon can be avoided!!
here
I'm going to go through Truce Canyon four times in my run, so I think 50 seconds wll be saved at least. Also, I have to mention that I'm thinking about redoing the battle of Zenan Bridge, because I reached the conclusion that the strategy using Berserker is actually much faster than the one using Slash after having some tests. So it will take a while before I'll release a WIP around the Nizbel battle.
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hero of the day wrote:
I predict the nizbel battle will now be reduced to 2 rounds due to having the red katana.
That's a good point, hero! I was just thinking about that. Considering the fact that RedKatana boosts the damage from Crono's physical attack by about 15% compared to LodeSword, it's very possible. I think whether it will work or not probably depends on how many critical hits I can get in the battle. I'll give it a try, anyway. Thanks for the good suggestion!
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Thanks for the encouragement, mmbossman! Yes, Chrono Trigger is a relatively long game in SNES, and it's true I sometimes get depressed just thinking about how many are left. But CT has been my favorite game for a long time, so I'll definitely finish this run unless an unexpected accident happens to my real life.
Floogal wrote:
In case you're wondering, Robo still appears at the ending like normal if he's still at Fiona's Shrine. At least, he does in the ending where everything but reviving Crono is completed (heh, finishing with a party of just 4...), so I'm assuming that in your ending it will also be so. I guess the programmers didn't expect you to abandon poor Robo like that...
Thanks for the tip. IIRC, Robo shows up twice in the "What the Prophet Seeks" ending, Leene's Square and Crono's house. So, I'm looking forward to see him, who should not be there in that Ending.
Now, a few times for fun, I've fought Lavos with my maxed-out file while only equipping Haste Helms, Beserkers, and the best weapons/armours. Surprisingly, any party has a decent chance of succeeding, but Crono + Lucca/Frog + Ayla works best. Anyways, often one character gets off an attack before inner-Lavos initial Doors of Doom attack -- sometimes all 3!
Sounds interesting. I haven't heard of All 3 can sometimes precede the inner-Lavos' first attack. Then, it may be within the realm of possibility that Crono, who is not equipped with Berserker and Haste Helm, and whose speed is 15, does the faster action than inner-Lavos.
By the way, I've finally made the Masa/Mune and Masamune battle done.
here.
As you can see, a new strategy is to equip Crono with Berserker. It may seem somewhat reckless to give Berserker to him in the battle, since Crono with Berserker can't use Slash to prevent Masamune from using the fatal Tornado. However, that's not a big problem, because, unlike usual strateies, Crono's sword is now Red Katana, which makes it relatively easy to cut his HP in half by the time he starts to store an energy. As a result, I have saved about 45 seconds from hero's run in the both fights alone.
Also, regarding Masamune's strange behavior, hero's movie was really helpful to reproduce it. Thanks, hero!
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Yeah, as hard as it may be to believe, I actually did.
here
To be honest, it was done by pure accident, and I have no idea at all why such an unnatual thing is possible. Perhaps, it is related to that I equipped a Berserker with Crono on the fight with the real form of Shell Lavos. I think more test will be needed to figure out its mechanics.
Anyway, There is no doubt this leads to gigantic changes of the later part of the run.
First is, as you said, no more GreenDream. You still need to visit to Fiona's Shrine, since it is impossible to stand Chaos, Obstacle and Shadow Slayer without Vigil Hat. But, you don't have to finish the GreenDream quest anymore, and about 2 minutes and 40 seconds would be saved!!!
Second is, you have to search for an alternative to Twister. Twister is a tech that I abused at the fights with each form of Shell Lavos in my run, but, it is not available this time, because Robo is still laid to rest in Fiona's shrine. I'm thinking Fire Whirl is a reasonable way, since Fire Whirl also generates a massive damage, and it has less animation than Twister.
Probably, I have to thoroughly rethink my leveling-up strategy at Tyrano lair, which means now I have much more work to do than before, but it's a welcome thing.
