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alden wrote:
Baxter wrote:
I would wish for someone to TAS it, just like you do. I still think the TASer should take in into account and be prepared for the worst.
Yes, true but sad. Does it always have to be though?
A lot of people, despite what they are supposed to do, will look at publication of a run as the ultimate goal, not the enjoyment of the creation process or the knowledge that some people, somewhere will enjoy it. This will always be the case. So to encourage someone to undertake a 40+ minute movie when there is a large amount of doubt about it's publication potential is somewhat irresponsible (or selfish, I'm not sure which works best here), unless you know that they really just want to make the movie, and don't care about whether it's published or not.
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alden wrote:
A happy medium: not constant but you should try to interact with stuff where it doesn't lose time, like in SMB where random 1up blocks are hit etc. But you better go all out on the autoscroller stage :)
The interacting with everything part was already taken care of, I hit everything that is possible to hit. Xenos had said that he preferred to see Mario constantly jumping, even when there was nothing to hit, though. That was more my question.
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I have been making some progress on this, and while I haven't figured out the method behind the madness that is the bonus screens, I have discovered that the WIP that Xenos posted before managed to make the first three stages (1.1-1.3) as close to perfect as I can find. By delaying 4 frames in level 1 (as counted by sub-second RAM clock that determines when the main clock decreases by 1 second), he was able to maintain a perfect 1.2 and 1.3. The 46 frame rule seems to only have an affect on timing in 1.3, and even delaying one more frame in that stage will cause it to activate. But by delaying those 4 frames in level one, the frame rule is averted, while still producing the best possible bonus stage set-up.
Xenos, thank you for blindly stumbling into the most optimal way possible of doing the whole freaking first level O_o.
However, this means that the subsequent levels may be an aggravating sequence of trial and error, to see if delaying x number of frames in the first stage will produce the most beneficial bonus stage. But hell, at least there's progress.
As for entertainment value, I prefer to have Mario take as little excess movement as possible, I think it makes things look a lot more sharp and focused, instead of making Mario look like a kangaroo by jumping whenever he can. But I am willing to change that if the audience thinks it's more entertaining. So, to anyone following this thread, which method would you like better?
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Hyper Inferno wrote:
Honestly, the way Smash is structured, it really is more an action game then a fighter, and it just has a more obviously seen optimal method of beating each stage in the game. At least in the way the game is structured in the 1p mode.
Would someone fill me in as to how this is not a fighting game? I've never played it, and from a totally outsider perspective, it looks like a typical fighting game (you don't need to have a dedicated combo system to be called a fighting game).
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Xkeeper wrote:
So why is Smash not accepted on grounds of being repetitive and RPGs are OKed?
Smash is rejected because of potential. It has the potential to be immensely entertaining, with the wealth of moves, states, and various ways to KO opponents. This run uses very few and doesn't even complete the bonus stages.
A run of SMB3 or SMW that just sat there and ran though the levels without doing interesting things (1up chain, cape glitching, you name it) would be rejected for being unentertaining, even if it was faster. That's the idea here; this run is boring and it could be so much better.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
I for one would be in favor of having two published runs for this game, with neither having speed be a primary focus. The other run on the workbench does a decent job of entertainment throughout the 1p mode, but I think another game that starts from a dirty SRAM so that the unlockable characters are present would provide three very entertaining 2 on 2 matches (timed or otherwise), that could aim at showing off all the characters. So with one run showing off the story mode, and one run showing off all the characters, we wouldn't get into the re-cock-ulous problem of having 12 runs of 1p, just because "(insert character name here) doesn't have a run yet".
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I'm working on a GBx game, and during a memory search I come across two types of addresses in VBAs built in search function:
One type looks like this:
00:c20e
00:c250
And the other type looks like this:
01:c154
01:ca28
01:cf2e
In VBA watch, inputting an address from the first type of sequence (ie c20e and c250), works exactly as they should, displaying the desired memory address. However, the sequences with a prefix of "01" do not display the same address as seen in VBA cheat search. Is there some special notation to use in VBA Watch to enable these different types of addresses?
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Acheron86 wrote:
I wish I understood why PS1 emulation isn't as advanced as N64 emulation
CD based emulation is difficult to achieve sync stability because the emulator should be able to play back a movie no matter if the user has an .iso loaded or the actual CD in their player. But because different disc players have different read/load times, especially compared to the user's hard drive, it's difficult to code an emulator to treat each instance equally. Sega CD was introduced a full 10 years before the Gameboy Advance, and yet we just achieved sync stability with Sega CD 2-3 years after we had it with GBA (thanks to some excellent work by nitsuja and Upthorn).
It's getting worked on though, so hopefully in 2009 PSX TASing will be a full reality.
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Acheron86 wrote:
All I can really say is that I wanted to bring my two cents to the table here, I thought it was a good a place as any to join a community which is focused around something I hold in high regard. If the precedent here is that newbies shouldn't voice their opinions, I'll acquiesce, though I'm not quite sure how to go about ever being more than a newbie if I can't say what I think. I'm also okay with the idea that my opinion isn't currently worth anything to the majority of this forum's members, so just let me know if it's considered bad form here to say my thoughts if I'm not well-known.
Either way, I stand by my opinion that a good TAS should entertain more than just TAS diehards.
I can't speak for Zurreco, but I didn't read his argument as implicating *you* as the person who doesn't know anything. I read it as *anyone in general*, which usually makes me think of the average youtube user (shudder). So far your responses and contributions to discussion have been excellent (i.e. understandable and in complete sentences, which can be a rarity online), so please don't think we have any sort of prejudice against people who are new to the site. I love to hear what anyone has to say, as both a player being critiqued on my submitted run, and as a judge trying to make an informed decision about someone else's run. So please feel free to keep posting :)
EDIT: And I agree that a good TAS should entertain more than just TAS diehards. However, we have a submission process so that we can filter through which runs we want on this site. There is nothing preventing someone from encoding their run, or a rejected run, and posting it elsewhere. It's been done before, will be done again, and is an entirely acceptable alternative.
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Yes fights:
Link, Yoshi-team, Mario Bros., Kirby team, Polygon team, Master Hand
Meh fights:
Fox, Giant DK, Samus,
No fights:
Pikachu, Metal Mario
Bonus stages:
Glad they're in there (and fast), FAILURE just seemed wrong.
I especially liked the Yoshi-team fight, it was exactly what I wanted to see from a run like this. I think there is still some work to be done on the meh and no fights, but overall it did what it was meant to do: entertain. Voting yes.
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I have a few questions that I need answered before I can make a decision on this:
* Why did you used a fixed (f) ROM, as opposed the the good (J) ROM?
* It looks to me like you missed several damage boosts:
1) The red snake at the end of the first level
2) Frame 5300, followed soon after by taking 3 hits from the snake on the platform (so I know you have the health for the damage boost)
3) Why didn't you boost off (at least some of) the spikes around frame 11000?
4) Any reason why you didn't boost off the first caveman before killing the second to get the lightning powerup?
These were some things that I (and several other people) noticed that stuck out in the first half of the movie, I havne't taken a look at the second half in as much detail yet.
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I know that a few people are "kicking the tires" of desmume, to see if it would be an appropriate emulator to add TAS features too, but it's quite a fixer-upper, so don't get your hopes up quite yet. There is interest though, which is always a good place to start.
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I'm sure it's not a priority right now, but for any sort of stable "v .1" release or something like that, mappable hotkeys are a must. But for the time being, I'll find some time to play around with this version, just the way it is :) Thanks for taking your time to fix this up mz!
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Hey, that was pretty good, at least the minigames. Turboing through the other 80% of the movie wasn't so much fun, but good job on making this a fun walk down memory lane, I appreciate it a lot.
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Satoryu wrote:
playing a free for all in Brawl offers no satisfying finishing point
I was thinking more along the lines of a playaround through the 1p mode like what was shown in this run. If there's a 2p co-op mode, that would be even better. EDIT: (Was just informed there is no co-op, which is a shame). It has a definite end point, and would still be a pretty reasonable length, I'd assume.
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AKA wrote:
I don't see the game getting published since there is some people who are hell bent on not seeing the game published.
Comicalflop wrote:
to all those who hate the game and don't want it published on the site
Where the hell does this idea keep coming from? I have yet to see one person say that they hate SSB, or that they think it's a horrible game that shouldn't ever have a run. Everyone's commentary, both pro and con, has been related to this run, and not to the game in general. Just because a game doesn't have a run yet after a few submissions does not indicate a conspiracy.
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Satoryu wrote:
i don't agree with the idea of making a movie out of a multiplayer match. the goal, in the sense of the game, not the movie, would be lame. sure it's nice to show off, but just doing a free for all doesn't warrant anything like the 1 Player modes do.
What exactly do you think we do here? We make movies of video games, we don't actually play them. So the only goal that really matters is the goal of the movie, not whether it makes a good goal for the game. Making an unassisted speedrun for a fighting game is entertaining because it tends to show a lot of skill; making a TAS of a fighting game with a goal of speed usually isn't entertaining because of the repetitiveness mentioned uncountable times in this thread. For some reason, I feel the need to give just a few more examples of games that make entertaining movies, but not necessarily good goals if you're actually playing the game:
http://tasvideos.org/1118M.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/1013M.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/1039M.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/970M.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/1029M.html
Obviously, at 10 titles, runs aiming for entertainment rather than speed are the exception, not the rule, but they still have a place here, and I think SSB would make an excellent addition to this list.
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AKA wrote:
Kles wrote:
The optimal TAS for a fighting game is doing as much wild and interesting stuff as you can and doing THAT as fast/precise as you can. Watch Mortal Kombat 2.
The best thing a TAS can show in a fighting game is insane combos.
Along with glitches, oddities, funny moments, taunting opponents, and many other things. I agree that combos are great to show off, but variety is the spice of life.
AKA wrote:
Something which I feel the MKII TAS lacks, Rain would have been a better choice IMO.
I may be remembering wrong, but I thought that Rain only came about in Ultimate MK or MK triology. Smoke was the "it" character in MK II.
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Necrobump.
To better educate myself on this whole SSB phenomenon (I own a N64, but have never played this game), I decided to watch through this submission. I actually laughed out loud at the fox "fight", but the rest quickly became repetitive, especially the multi-yoshi and polygon fights. Sucking an enemy up and then suiciding was funny once, but it too looked overused.
Overall, I still believe this game has a lot of potential to have a published run here, but I think it will take someone doing a 2 or 4 person playaround for that to happen.
Also, no offense meant to Comicalflop for his work on this, he did a good job with his chosen goal. It just seems to me that this game and speed do not really mix.
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this is me wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
this is me wrote:
the other 1% is the "because i said so" of course which is how runs like the DKR one get published
Voting results from Diddy Kong Racing:
No 6 (11%)
Yes 43 (81%)
Meh 4 (7%)
Current voting results from this submission:
No 10 (20%)
Yes 28 (58%)
Meh 10 (20%)
If you're going to criticize prior judging actions, at least get your facts straight.
what you said is correct but irrelevant to what i said
i will ignore this though as thanks for your turok tas and adelikat's glover tas
How is it irrelevant? I read your post as "The Diddy Kong Racing run shouldn't have been accepted, and was only published because a judge liked it so much that he went against the crowd and accepted it anyway. This run should be no different".
If I misinterpreted, I apologize, but could you clarify what you meant?
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this is me wrote:
the other 1% is the "because i said so" of course which is how runs like the DKR one get published
Voting results from Diddy Kong Racing:
No 6 (11%)
Yes 43 (81%)
Meh 4 (7%)
Current voting results from this submission:
No 10 (20%)
Yes 28 (58%)
Meh 10 (20%)
If you're going to criticize prior judging actions, at least get your facts straight.
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To avoid any more confusion, these are the two graphics found around the site that make reference to the meaning behind the acronym 'TAS'. And no, it doesn't mean Tool ASsisted.
moozooh wrote:
AKA wrote:
I don't see the game getting published since there is some people who are hell bent on not seeing the game published.
In fact, you're wrong on many levels. The game has tremendous entertainment potential. I don't feel the need to explain it to you because I believe you know this be the case, but still, take a look at the link Raiscan has posted on the first page. Yet, almost every single submission here aimed for faster/more repetitive KOs or other kinds of fuck-arounds instead of being a full-fledged superplay that would show various moves and interesting ways to complete the stages, rather than mashing the same attack several times in a row and considering THAT entertaining.
What I don't understand is how people manage to overlook this fundamentally simple thing, especially when every single fighting TAS on the site tries to abide by this guideline. Every Single. This flies completely above my head, and it's no wonder many people don't consider this run entertaining. Because it doesn't show a quarter of what the game is capable of, gameplay-wise. And it will be the reason it will (most likely) get rejected, and not the speculation that those in charge don't like the game.
My sentiments exactly. Nothing would please me more than having a fun and entertaining SSB movie published. But until authors start focusing more on entertaining the audience and less on KO speed (like every other published run of a fighting game does), this game will continue to be the source of mediocre submissions.
To avoid any more confusion, these are the two graphics found around the site that make reference to the meaning behind the acronym 'TAS'. And no, it doesn't mean Tool ASsisted.