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A lot of runs derive their entertainment from the speed at which the game is beaten, so speed and entertainment aren't always two separate entities. Most action games fit into this mold ("LOL wow! Look how fast he beat it! How entertaining!" etc). However, genres like sports games or fighting games seem to gain more entertainment from "play-around" type runs, as evidenced by the fact that we don't have any fighting games published that has a primary goal of time to completion. Whether that changes is obviously up for debate, but it's my opinion that entertainment in runs of fighting games is much more important than speed.
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eternaljwh wrote:
Why did you grapple up to grab the dark spidey powerup at end of Court Disorder? It looked strictly bad there, and you lose the effect a few seconds later at end of level.
And, since I can't seem to locate a FAQ on the game, what do those powerups do (aside from the ones that max out your ragemeter and turn you to dark spidey, that's obvious)?
It is impossible to break through walls that have yellow and black stripes on them without being Dark Spidey. Most of the other instances of this in the run are nearly unnoticeable, but I'm glad you caught it, good eye.
As for the power-ups, the one with the first increases your attack power by 50% per powerup (max of 3). As for the web powerup, I'm really not sure. At first I thought it increased max web length, but my tests don't seem to back that up. If you find out, let me know.
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Generally speaking, aiming for fastest time is not a good goal for fighting games, and you have showed why with this submission. There is usually one or two devastating moves/combos that need to be used extensively, but unfortunately the repetition of such a tactic tends to be boring. All of the fighting games that have published runs on the site aim to show off and provide entertaining moves/combos/glitches that aren't possible to do in real life. While I understand that a movie of this caliber isn't possible in real life, it doesn't provide the variety and entertainment that is showcased in the other published movies of this type. Voting no.
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Poor game choice, plain and simple. I agree that an any% run would probably be more entertaining than this movie, but still probably not entertaining enough for publication. Voting no.
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I got around to watching this finally, and while I think this game would make a great TAS if it was done properly, this run doesn't quite do it. Without a second player to interact with during the down times, and to help speed up some of the other sections, this run is simply just another beat-em-up. If you do decide to do another TAS of this, I think it could be easily be of acceptable quality, but this run simply doesn't live up to (what I see as) the games full potential. Sorry, but I vote no.
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How much time could be saved with a two player version of this game? Also, are there opportunities for the use of two players to increase the entertainment value?
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symbolic X wrote:
Damn it! I was almost done with the first quarter at 24-0 and then FCEUX crashed. =/ I'll have to downgrade FCE back to 0.98.25 and give it another shot.
Why don't you just use one of the savestates you had to start over from where it crashed?
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This run looks as tight as an extra small condom! Yes vote.
There's no way I was going to post in a thread about Trojan without making some sort of reference to a trouser snake raincoat.
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Ha ha wow. That was fun, nice and short (I fully support using a password to get to the last level in this case), and I was entertained for the whole 32 seconds (no ADD here!). I especially liked the face at the top having a constant expression of shock during each board. Yes vote.
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P.JBoy wrote:
it's Speed, not Velocity
It has both a magnitude (usually 1792) and direction (right or left, up or down, or any combination thereof), so I continue to think it's velocity.
But it really doesn't matter.
Glad everyone has liked the run.
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N. Harmonik wrote:
This movie last a few seconds so you're not accepting it? By that definition, Monopoly shouldn't be published so many times!
No, this run lasts less than half a second. I haven't watched it yet, but I have a feeling that 2x2 would be somewhat anti-climactic, but doing a run with the largest board available in the shortest time may be pretty cool. I'll try to watch later.
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eternaljwh wrote:
Anyway, isn't one of the points of having many judges achieving a greater spread of familiarity with games?
I'm not quite sure where you got that idea, could you explain further?
As for "greater spread of familiarity with games", of the (now) 19 movies published in the last 4 days, 10 of them are new runs that did not obsolete anything. Just thought I'd throw that out there...
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Aqfaq wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm seriously beginning to question if having adelikat and mmbossman as judges is the right choice.
You are kidding, right?
I think they are doing really good job! Some rules might be worth rewriting every now and then, but there's nothing wrong with the judges. If there was a poll, I would definitely vote these exact persons for judges.
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Wall of Text/ tl;dr: I support my decision.
moozooh wrote:
First of all, the point is not that you shouldn't accept or publish the improvements to the storybook runs. The points is that not unpublishing is the site's general policy that was made for reasons close/related to political correctness and preservation of content. However, due to the very fact that we faithfully abide by this policy, we have lots of runs considered boring (as mmbossman eloquently put it) constantly rehashed, and many new runs for new games, that are similarly-or-less boring to an audience, not published because the site has high entertainment standards and shit. You see the two policies conflicting with each other?
I do not see two conflicting policies, rather I see the past and current status of the site conflicting. This site started out accepting anything that was technically impressive, no matter how boring it was to watch, because TASing as an art was "new and exciting". Bubble Bobble, one track Top Gear, B.O.B.; they are all uninteresting to watch, yet they were all published because they showed off a technically impressive feat for the time. But we cannot constantly repeat the mistakes of the past if we are to make progress. Since there is no "unpublish" function, we simply do what we can with the old submissions (i.e. make the better), and try to learn from what we did wrong in the past.
moozooh wrote:
I won't touch the fact that 10:2 yes vote ratio is usually considered good response from the viewers. The reason adelikat gets the lash more often than Truncated is that the latter does seem to put more attention to audience reception even when he doesn't personally consider a game particularly good for TASing.
Bullshit. If that were the case, this would have never been published. Judges make decisions, and good judges try to do so with the best possible information. I specifically went out of my way to try and stir up conversation about this run, and received responses from 3 people. One was the author, who gave a very good and balanced opinion of his run, and the other two had already posted. So, in the two months this was on the workbench, no one cared enough to watch it and defend it, despite having been asked to. As for the 10:2 ratio, you know as well as I do that weak yes votes are like a plague around here. People vote yes because they liked the name of the game, a specific small section of the movie, a characters name, or simply because they don't want to hurt the author's feelings. I put much more stock in what people write, and if you look closer at the first page, there are 4 people who cared enough to say they liked it. I'm not going to get into a conversation about the magic number of yes votes or anything like that, but if someone doesn't care enough about a run to actually post something, and then comes out of the woodwork later to bitch about it later, I have a hard time feeling sorry for them since they had every opportunity to express their opinion.
moozooh wrote:
The first step is not getting pissed at any criticism (not taking it personally in the first place), and instead trying to improve the situation. Nothing is perfect, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't improve at each opportunity. Clinging to all kinds of standards which have been made historically (and which may or may have not been relevant to the site's current state), for one, is not a good way to improve.
Amazingly, you took the words right out of my mouth, but for the completely different viewpoint. If I were to be adhering to ancient standards, every run of a racing game with one track played would automatically be accepted, since we accepted two of them, back in the day. If Bubble Bobble was accepted, the recent Chack'n'Pop should have been too. Let's face it, there are many, many examples of poor games that have been accepted before, and if we were to go blindly off of what we've done in the past, we probably wouldn't even need judges, as there wouldn't be any need to reject anything. I am trying to improve the site. Whether I did or did not do that with this run is obviously up for debate, and I'm glad. I just wish the debate could have happened in the two months prior to rejection.
moozooh wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
I do try to think about the audience in general, and think of whether they will be entertained. If a run is full of action, and has some smaller errors, it will likely be accepted. If a run is mediocre on action, but is impeccably done, it will also likely be accepted. But this run, and runs like it, are boring (I also agree that the three storybook TASes you mention are boring, but take that up with whoever originally accepted them in 2004 and 2005, not me. We don't unpublish movies here, so that's a topic for a different thread, or a different PM).
This is an example of a certain past event interfering with the present, among other things.
It's obvious that any and all movies won't be received the same way by any given audience. As such, the main audience you as a judge should pay the most attention to is the one that needs this movie. Because those who doesn't need it don't have to watch it either. Think of it as a restaurant menu: there are always things you will never eat, but someone else eats that every day. The restaurant's goal is to serve their customers, so they will put that dish on the menu because there is a demand for it.
As much as you've made very good points so far, the restaurant menu analogy you present is just as horrible of logic as adelikat's post on the previous page. Restaurants change their menu all the time, especially when something isn't selling well. If they really wanted to serve their customers, there would be more Japanese/Thai/Mexican/German/American/British restaurants around. But you don't see those, because most restaurants have decided to specialize. We also have the luxury to specialize, but instead of doing it by genre, or platform, we choose to do it by content.
moozooh wrote:
If you aren't a part of the relevant audience that would like this movie, gathering their response is the first thing you should do (as you state you do in general). However, what exactly do you need to believe that audience likes a movie beside that exact audience telling you they like a movie (which was what happened here, in particular)? This is something I don't understand and would like to have a clarification for.
I believe I already covered this previously, if you don't believe so, please let me know.
moozooh wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
If we accept every run that is well done from a precision standpoint, we'd get bitched at for being too lenient and decreasing the entertainment value of the site.
I do understand I haven't been registered at the site for very long, but could you please point me to the last such argument posed here?
B.O.B. and Combatribes. I believe there are more recent ones, especially dealing with rejected runs of hacks, but my mind is drawing a blank at the moment. If they haven't been any recent arguments about it, then maybe it's because there haven't been many runs published that actually decrease the entertainment value of the site?
moozooh wrote:
So it's pleasing the audience that should be the primary objective. Correct me if I'm wrong.
As such, depriving them of the quality content despite their vocal support without a strong reason is not a good thing, no matter if you're a judge, a jury, an executor, or whoever.
Vocal support is the key phrase here, which I've already addressed. If those 10 people who voted yes had even just taken the time to say "Good run, I really enjoyed it", I would have had a much different view of the perceived audience. Instead, there were 4 people who voted with strong yes's, and only two of those people tried to defend their decision when blatantly questioned about it.
moozooh wrote:
Dammit wrote:
In any case, I'm unlikely to do any more of these envelope-pushing TASes.
Personally, if I were a judge, I'd rather be ashamed the situation has come to this. :|
If you were a judge you might have realized that he said this way before the decision to reject was reached, and that trying to indicate that I or any other judge "caused" dammit to say that is deceitful.
As said before, I hope very much that he, and other people, continue to try new things. Just because this one didn't work out as he may have hoped doesn't mean that the next one won't.
EDIT: Also, it seems your own page supports a lot of the logic I used above (also see number 7): http://tasvideos.org/Moozooh/MostPopularExcuses.html#3ALotOfPeopleVotedYesThisCanTBeBad
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We got tired of seeing a huge list of things needed to be done. At last count there were 17 publications in the past 4 days, with a total of 3 rejections in that span.
Also, thanks for noticing :) It's nice to be appreciated, or at least acknowledged (massive thanks also to Raiscan and adelikat, for doing most of the actual work).
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Xkeeper wrote:
Entertainment is very much subjective. Just because it was not entertaining for you does not mean it was entertainment for other people, which I think is part of the judging problem here.
I'll simply point you to this thread, as it seems like it will be the exact same conversation.
Also, please note who did the rejecting in that instance.
EDIT: Selected sample of discussion:
mmbossman wrote:
Also, I don't find any conflicting messages in alden's post. Nothing is prohibiting anyone from making a movie for a less than popular game, but the quality of the site at large is affected by the movies that are published. I'm glad whenever someone makes a run for a game that hasn't been done before, because chances are that someone somewhere will find it enjoyable for some reason for another. If you take this run for example, a good amount of people found it enjoyable, but it wasn't published. Did that change your enjoyment of it at all? If someone wants to see it, the .vbm still exists, and is even linked to in the prequel's movie text. Just because publication acts like a filter to sort through the cream of the crop doesn't mean that the gruefood entries are all bad (see alden's sig, for example). It just means that the specific movie may not be entertaining enough to a large enough audience to warrant publication. The same thing goes for King's Quest. Many people enjoyed it because of nostalgia, but to someone who hadn't played it, it was 30 minutes of text boxes. Hope my point gets across
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Xkeeper wrote:
I'm seriously beginning to question if having adelikat and mmbossman as judges is the right choice.
If only because they seem to hold everything to an insane standard, and anything possibly below the "Full of action, no glaring errors, perfect TASvideos material" is rejected regardless of how many people liked it.
Yes, yes, blah blah whine not a democracy, etc. But I have had several people I introduced to here talk to me that it always seems that these two reject every questionable movie... which means that none of the other ones is added.
(Honestly, another question: Why are we still accepting Deja Vu/Shadowgate/Uninvited TASes if this run is getting rejected? Those are almost 99% cursor movement and unless you know what is going on beforehand, all the text/movement happens too quickly to follow.)
I'm sorry to see that Dammit will not be trying anything "out of the ordinary" again.
I do not try to hold things to an impossibly high standard. I do try to think about the audience in general, and think of whether they will be entertained. If a run is full of action, and has some smaller errors, it will likely be accepted. If a run is mediocre on action, but is impeccably done, it will also likely be accepted. But this run, and runs like it, are boring (I also agree that the three storybook TASes you mention are boring, but take that up with whoever originally accepted them in 2004 and 2005, not me. We don't unpublish movies here, so that's a topic for a different thread, or a different PM).
If you believe that we should cater to everyone, and publish any movie that makes at least one person happy, then we seem to have a difference in ideals, and I can accept that. But this site is different because it provides both high quality and entertaining movies, with very few instances of one being present without the other. If we accept every run that is well done from a precision standpoint, we'd get bitched at for being too lenient and decreasing the entertainment value of the site. If we reject a run that a few people enjoyed because of nostalgia, we get bitched at for not accepting enough. As the saying goes, "You can make some people happy all the time...."
I do hope that dammit (and others) continue to think differently with his submissions, however. This should not be seen as a rejection of his work or technique, but as a suggestion for improved game choice.
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So do people think we need three Metroid 2 runs published, or should this obsolete the current any% run? Currently the any% and 100% are very similar in content due to the linear nature of the game, and I'm personally in favor of having an "any%, glitched" and "100%, non-glitched", but I'd like to hear others opinions on it.
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If you read the ridiculously long thread, why didn't you post your announcement there? We tend to discourage starting multiple threads for the same game, since it makes finding information about the game harder, and generally adds clutter to the website.
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adelikat wrote:
This was very boring to watch, and a very simplistic game. And has no ending. And no real music. And no action. I don't think this is TASvideos material.
Voting No.
