Are we absolutely positive that there is no possible way we can reach the bombchus in Kakariko Well? This is probably the last barrier from way back that hasn't yet been overcome. Comicalflop, you said Acryte was only a "few centimeters" from succeeding?
Why didn't you just steal the shovel? It takes only 11 seconds for the shopkeeper to kill you, which I'm almost certain is shorter than the time it took you to make all those diversions for rupees.
The four-minute "short version" is already a zero-death run, so I don't really see the point of having another one...
Otherwise, fantastic improvement.
I never figured this out, why couldn't we skip seeing zelda in the earlier versions, but now we can?
The Lullaby is needed to obtain the magic meter from the Great Fairy. Magic fuels Light Arrows, which, of course, are needed to stun Ganondorf.
With Reverse BA, we can now use item manipulation (namely, the Poacher's Saw) to obtain the Lullaby as well as other warp songs. Of course, we still need magic, which is why we use the Nocturne of Shadow (also obtained via manipulation) to warp to a location near the Great Fairy. Prior to RBA, the only way to learn the Lullaby was from Impa in the Hyrule Castle Courtyard.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Seems like the macro planing is mostly taken care of.
You guys sure got it done fast. I can't find any possible improvements to be made to the current route.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Is the graveyard warp to fairy the fastest way to get magic meter, not din's fire or anything like that?
I believe so. The only other option is through the Lost Woods and Goron City, but I highly doubt that would be faster considering that we're traveling all the way from Gerudo Valley.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
This time around we should do the micro planning before the actual run is started. This is exactly where, when, and how many of each item should be picked up. Most noteably, bombs, for supersliding. If a super slide will save fraction of second it needs to be considered into the route. This is because you can pick up 5 bombs in less than 5 seconds. So figure out how many bombs you can get along the way and how many superslides will save time. Then we might have to weigh the cost of getting some bombs to the time saved from super sliding.
I agree. Guano's previous runs didn't take advantage of superslides nearly enough. For example, he could have superslid when exiting Kakariko Village to Hyrule Field after obtaining the bottle. It takes around four seconds to set up a superslide, so this is something to keep in mind when evaluating tradeoffs. It is very difficult to plan everything out to the tiniest detail, as there are always bound to be unexpected circumstances, but I think we can get a good estimate of the number of bombs needed.
Being able to understand what is going on in an RPG or game is also nice, since it removes the "Wait, I can't even tell what's going on, who cares" factor.
How about you play the game before watching the run?
It should be noted that its much faster to use the Japanese version of OoT and MM, yet the current runs are being done in the English version, even though there is French and German available, they both seem to be slower. I could accept a run where the language gets changed ingame to get a faster run, but I couldn't accept a different game version played in Japanese/other i.e. purley becuase of faster scrolling text. I would willingly accept it being used if it offers something different or useful gameplay wise.
Really...the Japanese versions are faster? In what way (is it just text?) and how much of a difference does it make?
I prefer #2. Think of it this way: most of the dialogue is being scrolled through so quickly anyway that the choice of language hardly affects "entertainment" or "performance."
That was very annoying, not to mention potentially seizure-inducing for sensitive viewers.
Can we do a pure-speed run this time? FODA's run had a lot of trade-offs to satisfy the pro-entertainment people.
I think the camera angles in the last WIP are just fine.
I believe 5-3 is faster.
Hopefully, a DS emulator with re-recording isn't too far away. The latest version of No$GBA has nearly all the basics down, except for some minor graphics glitches and lag on slower computers.
I get a desync when he tries to enter the shop after hitting the owl statue... What happens instead of entering the shop: rolls in direction of the shop door, doesn't enter, and then do random things outside the shop.
Same here, even though my configuration is the same as Mukki's. This is why I asked for a savestate.
I agree with Bisqwit. There are so many great games out there that are just waiting to get TAS'ed. Why dwell on the same ones?
I personally don't think any of the Super Mario Advance titles are "different" enough to warrant new runs right now.
I'm not sure that I agree about doing stars in numerical order. It was nice to be surprised by FODA's run. Often I would guess that he was going after star #2 and be shocked when he got star #6 instead. Let's not be too clinical! A bit of mystery is a good thing.
To me, the "mystery" makes the run appear disorganized and hard to follow. When I see Star N selected, I expect to see Star N collected. I just don't find it enjoyable to watch runs that jump all over the place when doing so doesn't save any time.
I tried it today and I can confirm that doesn't work :/
That is very odd, when you go to adult and bottle on B as a child you can get hover boots to there where bullet bag come normally. I have noticed that some times ago but I don't know any use for it.
I will tell if I can get it work and I will try some methods later.
So this is consistent with what Acryte found four posts ago.
AKA, can you please explain what you were thinking when you suggested that there might be a route change? I'm not blaming you or anything, but unless you were just speculating, chances are you know something that we don't...
This is the route so far:
1 THE SECRET AQUARIUM
2-8 COURSE 3: 1256734
9 SECRET SLIDE REACH THE BOTTOM
10-16 COURSE 2: 1237456
17 SECRET SLIDE 12'5"
18 TOWER WING CAP
19-25 COURSE 4: 1267345
26-32 COURSE 1: 1723456
33 DARK WORLD BOWSER
34 VANISH CAP
35-41 COURSE 5: 1723456
42-47 COURSE 9: 273461
48 FIRE SEA BOWSER
49: COURSE 9: 5 (doesn't appear until Star 1 obtained)
50: MIPS 1
51-57: COURSE 8: 1234576
58-64: COURSE 7: 1234756
65: MIPS 2
66: TOAD B1
67: METAL CAP
68-74: COURSE 6: 7123456
75-81: COURSE 11: 1273456
82-88: COURSE 13: 1234756
89: TOAD 2F
90-96: COURSE 12: 1273456
97-103: COURSE 10
104-110: COURSE 14
111: WING MARIO
112: TOAD 3F
113-119: COURSE 15
120: BOWSER
My only gripe is that the stars in courses 3 and 4 weren't collected in numerical order when they could have been (unless I'm missing something). Collecting stars in order makes the run less confusing for viewers who may not be very familiar with this game, not to mention that it's easier to keep track of them. Otherwise, the run seems to be perfectly executed as far as I can tell.
Finally, a response from the great Kazooie:
Kazooie wrote:
That is old trick :P
If I remember correctly it wont work, somebody should try it and I have v1.2
I need try it on emu if I want to try it.
I have tried it but cannot remember :(
GuanoBowl wrote:
im not going to work on OOT right now because of this new trick. I have a feeling that if I get anywhere, it will happen.
If we somehow get this to work, the new route and the current one diverge after Spirit Temple (as a child). Add on Comicalflop's four-second improvement in Kokiri Forest alone (see the 100% topic) and the owl skip, and that's pretty much the entire run...but, of course, all of this is only relevant if the trick works out.
It says there is only one Gold Skultella in the Deku Tree, I know there are at least 3.
Also, I seem to remember a bombable wall in the Deku Tree, and a Skultella that only the adult can reach in Dodongo's Cavern, so there will be a bit of backtracking, unless you plan on using that infinite Skultella glitch.
You mean Skulltulas?
For the Deku Tree GS, backtracking will be required. There's pretty much no way around that.
For the two in Dodongo's Cavern, we may be able to use bomb hovers.
The old wiki I set up a long time ago for Guano's any% run seems to be still online, if you guys feel like using it.
I've tried that, and it doesn't work. You get your good old sword back on B after pulling the MS.
Here's my setup:
My understanding of Bottle Adventure, as explained on JayTheHam, is that the bottle on B must happen as an adult, making three trips through time the bare minimum. I could be wrong, of course.
I contacted Kazooie (credited as M-M on JayTheHam) about this 3-4 days ago and have received no response. I wonder what he's been up to these days...
Just to clarify, we're trying to find a way to get Light Arrows on B with only one trip through time. Currently, I'm not sure it's possible.
This is how it's done with three trips through time:
1. Deplete Deku Stick Supply to 0
2. Get fish in bottle
3. Become adult
4. Steal the rod
5. Go back towards ToT
6. In hyrule field (Not in lake hylia) Pause and unpause (puts deku stick on B [DON'T PRESS B])
7. Empty bottled fish and catch it again
8. Do backflip and then press bottle button and then B before you hit the ground. (puts bottle on B)
9. Go to ToT
10. Put fish on c-right and make sure deku nuts aren't equipped (not sure but to be safe).
11. Become child
12. Become adult (light arrows are now on B)
Notice that the bottle is on B as an adult. If we put the bottle on B as a child, it becomes a sword when Link is an adult.
In some cases, using warps saves quite a bit of time.
The lack of a soft reset option hasn't been a huge problem in Guano's three-heart run, as low health means that death warps can be easily implemented.
However, in a 100% run, you'll be collecting every heart container and heart piece, and deathwarping is no longer an option. Savewarping is not possible given the current limitations in Mupen64, so you'll have to do a lot more backtracking than in an unassisted run.
Because OoT is more stable, there's a very up-to-date speedrun in the works (the 100% MM is *very* old) and has a larger fanbase/anticipation, I think it should be done first. (regardless, MM any% should be finished before 100% MM, just to see if it's even possible to complete with all the desynchs.)
Personally, I'd like to see a 100% MM TAS much more than a 100% OoT, simply because there is a difference in the ending on top of the novelty of "doing everything." However, you bring up some good points, and I wouldn't mind seeing a 100% run of either game.
As for the OoT any% situation, we still need to confirm whether stealing the rod as a child would allow us to skip the Forest Medallion and a trip back in time. Upon further study of the way the Bottle Adventure glitch works internally, I'm not so confident -- see the any% topic for my reasoning. In any case, I've left a message for Kazooie (the glitch discoverer) over on SDA. If this trick works out, then the OoT any% will need to be almost completely redone.
I myself am considering this for the future (it'd be nice if MK64 was done and there was a solid TAS route complete. At least I know one can possibly be done in the foreseeable future.) At the moment that I get the green light, I already have a .m64 up to Kokiri forest, ending just before sidehopping down the ladder, 14 frames faster than Guano's (gained by exclusive frame advance for dialogues, and making the roll inside the house real tight.)
If I recall correctly, the intro in the current version wasn't actually done by Guano, but by AKA. I thought AKA had already optimized everything with frame advance, but you've now shown that there's still room for improvement. This is great.
My understanding of Bottle Adventure is that all of these steps must happen:
1. Get a bottle on B as an adult
2. Become a child and equip an item to C-Right
3. Become an adult and the new item on B corresponds to the value of Mem[BaseAddress + Value(Item on C-right)]
So, even if we can now steal the rod as a child, I'm not sure we can skip traveling back and forth in time at least once. When Link first becomes an adult, there is no bottle on B, and hence, I'm fairly sure the new item on B won't be Light Arrows -- it may as well just be the sword.
If this is true, then Swordless Link's trick may not be usable...
Well, we'd still need to complete the Deku Tree in order to get out of the forest. We'd still need to get bombs from Dodongo's and the hover boots from Shadow for Ganon's Castle early. We'd still need to collect the Silver Gauntlets or get the bow as a child -- and again I ask: which is faster? However, we'd be able to skip the last two spiritual stones. So a Temple of Time sequence break would probably cut the time by half, but it'll never be as simple as Kokiri Forest -> Temple of Time -> Ganon's Castle. Also, the chances of this SB even being possible are incredibly slim, considering how many people have tried...and failed. For one, there's an invisible force that pushes you backward when you try to jumpslash through the crack, and you also can't use any C items (save for the OoT) while inside the temple.
Because of the blocks in Forest en route to the bow, we either need to get Silver Gauntlets or go there as a child.
Swordless Link, have you tried completing Bottle Adventure with your glitch to verify that there are no oversights or unexpected problems?
My understanding of Bottle Adventure, as explained on JayTheHam, is that the bottle on B must happen as an adult, making three trips through time the bare minimum. I could be wrong, of course.
I contacted Kazooie (credited as M-M on JayTheHam) about this 3-4 days ago and have received no response. I wonder what he's been up to these days...