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I would enjoy this kind of run if it was done but, honestly, I don't believe enough people would agree with me.
I consider the Pokemon Blue 151 run interesting because of the incredible possibility of cutting the pokedex completion time by a creative use of route planning, glitch abuse and heavy luck manipulation.
Despite that, there's also a good dependency on repetition to achieve the goals in that run, which takes down the entertainment value significantly.
Seeing that there are no time-saving glitches to help completion in 3rd gen, there would be no interesting way to achieve the objectives, only the usual "enter the grass and catch it". Also, the fact that it uses a hack to make the challenge possible and that the number of pokemon to be caught is a lot larger is very aggravating, the run could easily enter the 6-hour mark.
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After HHS's interesting "proof" that a sum is true, and Pointless Boy's wonderings about the influence of number theory on life and the universe, I think I'll just post the solution in case we go too off topic.
\binom{2n}{n} = \sum_{k=0}{n} {\binom{n}{k}}^2
First, assume that we have 2n distinct objects and separate them into two groups containing n objects each.
Now, we calculate the number of combinations we can make taking k objects from the first pile and n-k objects from the second. It's clear that the total amount is binom(n)(k)*binom(n)(n-k), which also happens to be binom(n)(k)^2.
Summing all the possibilities from k=0 to k=n, we have taken into account all possible ways to get (n-k)+k = n objects from a group of 2n objects, which is binom(2n)(n).
The equality then follows. QED
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Well, this one is fairly well known, but is fun and interesting. Prove that
EDIT: Heh, sorry, it seems the LaTeX generator I used changes image links a lot.
What I want you to prove is:
\binom{2n}{n} = \sum_{k=0}{n} {\binom{n}{k}}^2
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Is there any trainer up to the second gym that uses an unavoidable damaging move? If there isn't, it's unnecessary to max defensive stats.
Also, I assume IVs are only crucial for the higher levels, and at that point, only the Att or SpAtt will matter by getting your damage dealing move. With this, it may be possible to do the run with sub-optimal stats.
Considering IVs alone, there are 2^30 ~= 10^9 different scenarios, and DS dates are from 2000 to 2099, giving around 36000 days to choose. It seems improbable that the seed for a perfect IV lies on those dates, or does it take the hour into account for seeding too?
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I voted Yes, and I think it should be in a separate category for the simple fact that it uses the (J) version and it's unclear if the glitch works in the (U) version. Should a run of Earthbound (U) using this glitch be submitted in the future, it would be double obsoletion.
To contribute with the discussion, in my view, what makes a TAS interesting is the display of an unexpected gameplay, that finishes the game in a fast and, more important, creative way. It's about making the game follow your rules instead of doing a normal playthrough. I don't understand how someone can think about putting it in a Konami code category.
So, it means that glitching the entire game to unlock an unaccessible feature to sequence break almost everything is about as interesting as entering a built-in code? I fail to see consistency in this argument, anyone with a superficial knowledge of a game can enter a password or code, there's nothing special in it. Glitching a debug menu, however, is impressive, makes you say WTF and makes an awesome TAS, that's what I consider important.
Maybe I'm assuming erroneous things, but it seems to me that all this discussion is motivated by something the audience appears to think that I don't understand. When RPGs runs are submitted, the viewers who care to vote say "yeah, it's well done, but it's too long and not very interesting blah blah blah" and give horribly low ratings when they're published. However, when they are broken and brought to a reasonable time, people start to complain that it doesn't showcase the game's original gameplay! To defend a slower run from eventual obsoletion from a glitched (U) run, people consider many arbitrary reasons to justify it, like definition of memory corruption and Konami code, when it's clear that the rules of the site clearly don't say anything about this submission's special case.
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I enjoyed the movie and see scrimpeh's point. Given the game's difficulty, performing a minimal weapon run in a short amount of time without taking damage is almost impossible in real time and clearly shows superplay.
I feel kinda bad to vote No, as this movie was well done, and I liked it. However, giving what the published run is, I don't think it warrants publication in another category. Your goals made the TAS longer, less entertaining and, like adelikat said, technically less interesting.
I think it deserves its place in Gruefood Delight though, and really hope you continue working in this game. I'd love to see a run with more interesting objectives.
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Dwedit wrote:
Would it have been possible to do it without pokemon who attack with coin flips? That seems like a source of delay.
It was possible sometimes. However, the instance where coin flips would have been saved needed additional pluspowers. That means more cards need to be put on the starting hand, which is a lot of time-wasting deck changes, which cost more than a coin flip.
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Kirkq wrote:
Solid run. (I'd recommend everyone skip the first 5 minute intro battle.) While not the most entertaining run in existence, watching the AI get clowned by various strategies is quite amusing. I feel like the deck stacking could've been done more optimally. I'm not sure why switching out 30 energies at a time is necessary when you only need like 2 of them or something. Perhaps there is a good explanation for that or perhaps this isn't the most optimally brute forced run in existence. Either way I think it is a minor concern. Yes vote; glad to see a run of this game.
Removing energy cards is the fastest way to shift cards that are in far positions to enter their right locations. For example, if I need a card at slot 43 which is currently at slot 55, I remove 12 energies to shift it in its location, since I can only add cards at the largest positions of the deck.
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Grand master battles, with the exception of Rod, can be won in one turn. Only the first two Ronalds and club leaders can't.
You have to make the game put a legendary card and another weak card in the hand. The AI won't put the legendary in the bench at the start to abuse its poképower by placing it during their first turn. What happens is that the enemy goes out with only one pokemon, even if it has two in their hand. It doesn't work for Rod because his legendary Dragonite isn't a basic pokemon.
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At boss battles, the game changes their hand shortly before the prizes are put, and they receive some basic pokemon and energy cards.
I've never seen their hand be changed to one that has only one pokemon, so FractalFusion and I assume the game puts a minimum of two basic cards, making it impossible to manipulate a one-turn win.
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I still think this is a bad game choice, to be honest. People who know the game well probably will find this entertaining, but I don't think it will look well to the average viewer. We have a long history of movies (RPGs are the most notable examples) published targeting the game's fans. Still, it's doubtful that the same applies here since most of the RPG runs last hours, meaning only true fans of the game would watch it.
What I think greatly supports this movie is novelty. There are runs that focus on luck, others on glitching, route planning, subpixel optimization, etc. This is the only one I can recall that relies heavily on lag reduction, making it interesting to TAS makers.
I can't really decide on what's more important, game choice or TASing aspects. Voted Meh.
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mklip2001 wrote:
It also seems like it's been popular to hate on this submission technically, making claims about serious improvements but not backing up those claims. I'm not sure why.
Most of the backup for the improvements you seem to be asking was discussed via IRC, hence not being accessible this thread. I talked to arukAdo myself and he considered cancelling the submission and redoing the run, implementing the things he outlined in his text. However, he decided to let the submission go and see if it was rejected by poor game choice, which would practically disqualify future attempts at this game.
What I mean by this post is that what happened with this movie shouldn't be taken as "some players didn't like the movie and said it was technically bad to put the audience against it".
It's only my opinion, but I think there's exaggeration on Sonikkustar's post. I've been very active lately and haven't seen any fights break out, only a lot of controversial submissions appearing and people disagreeing on their publication, which is completely normal. Besides, many users in the site, myself included, don't have English as their native language and may misread or write something with a different "tone" they originally intended, and that can spark conflict as well.
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N. Harmonik wrote:
Wouldn't it be faster if the protagonist was given a one letter name so the text would scroll quicker?
Perhaps. When text speed is set to fastest, text blasts through the screen several characters per frame, it probably wouldn't make difference the name's length. I haven't counted how many times "MARK" is printed in the intro section nor how much it costs to rename him to make a proper resolution on what's faster.
It's more like Zeupar said. FractalFusion's movie was nicely optimized, I didn't consider naming mistakes a strong reason to redo the whole movie.
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arukAdo wrote:
Acheron86: Your question is basicly, is this super play, all i can answer is yes it is superplay. Try yourself the game, if you beat stage1 without loosing a life your definitly good, average gamer dont go over the 3rd room. This game is hard, it doesnt look hard maybe, but the lag prevent smooth jumping or aiming (real time i mean), its a frustrating game.
This argument isn't enough to warrant publication of this run. The site is about INTERESTING superplay, not this run's boring superplay.
Regarding the technical side, I'm amazed that lag frames are around 25% of the movie's length, and still, seeing from the submission text and the previous replies, very little effort was put on minimizing lag. Also, the improvements you listed don't seem very hard to implement, leading me to believe this movie would be obsoleted in a short amount of time if it were published.
Voted No, since I didn't find anything special in the entertaining and technical aspects.
EDIT: Apologies, it seems a lot of lag was actually reduced. I think I didn't read it with the depth I should have. My vote is still No, for game choice. Sorry for misunderstanding.
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Well done, DarkKobold. The movie could keep my attention all the time and went pretty fast for 77 minutes. Easy Yes vote.
It seems you didn't get all your slashes critical for boss fights. Was it impossible/not worthy to manipulate?
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With so many rooms, route optimization must've been really complex and the run is pretty short for 100%. The spike stepping trick and moonwalk were also cool.
However, I found it incredibly boring and it felt awfully long for only twelve minutes.
Aside from that, I don't see any TAS merit in this run, as it's repetitive, doesn't feature evident super-human play, interesting outside-of-the-box thinking, luck manipulation or glitch abuse.
Therefore, I vote No, sorry.
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AKheon wrote:
Alright guys, thanks for publishing this run. I'm working on a second TAS project already, but I think I'll keep it hidden until it can finally be unveiled in a finished state, in all its unadultered and slightly grotesque glory. I'm feeling more confident about TASing now, I've even learnt hex-editing for this next one.
Congratulations on your publication!
I really recommend you to create a thread and share your WIPs. There are a lot of people in the community who can suggest improvements in your movie and make your TAS even more optimized. From my experience, TASes that are revealed only when submitted have improvements found by players a short amount of time later. And if this improvement is too far from the end and your TAS manipulates luck, hex editing won't help and you'll have to redo a long section of the run.
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Toothache wrote:
Updating information to say that a Hall of Fame location has been discovered within 15 minutes of entering the void. Now it would be helpful to know any battle RNG knowledge and a method to runtweak that doesnt tweak the z-axis. Any help appreciated, I cannot do it myself as I am back in the limbo of no computer again :-(
Interesting, is there any webpage that explains the run-tweaking process and the 15-minute hall of fame warp? I googled for them and couldn't find.
I've never attempted to TAS 4th gen, since my computer can't run DS games well. But, if the RNG is still like the 3rd, it's likely to be affected only by frame waits. The best way to manipulate would be not to use fast text and change the frame where you begin to hold A to scroll it faster.
I'd like to help researching on the RNG myself, but I've got a time-consuming project on my hands. T_T
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I have to admit that when I first saw this, I thought I'd waste 6 seconds of my life, but I was WRONG!!!!
It wasted so much more than that!
However, it shows that adelikat is the most impartial judge in the site.
EDIT: TAS'ing this game is a lot of fun, though! This run is longer, but truly p(a)wns the enemy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02jUSZosnc
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I suggest you guys created a thread to discuss your strategies.
Damn, I was going to upload an encode, but it was cancelled before I could do it. It doesn't matter anyway, as there'll be another one in less than one hour.
