Ferret Warlord: Most of the videos seem very credible at any particular moment. It is only their unrelenting perfection over the course of the entire video that seems inhuman, which is entirely different from needlessly executing a humanly impossible maneuver at a particular moment.
Even exploitation of bizarre glitches is credible. Could a human do it on a console? Sure, if they got lucky. Everything you see in the latest SMB video is certainly possible for a human to do. But can anyone in the world execute so many perfect maneuvers all in a row? Not a chance. That is why the videos here are cool.
But pressing back and forth 30 or 60 times in a second just isn't possible. Even Horowitz couldn't trill that fast, and piano keys are much easier to press than the d-pad on a controller.
Bob Whoops: The point of these movies, to me, is for things to progress at an unnatural pace, but to look natural doing it.
We already have a disclaimer at the beginning of every video stating that the run was done on an emulator. We all know that. Wonderful. Now suspend your disbelief, imagine if a person could do what you are about to see, and enjoy the run.
Wobbling completely ruins the illusion, because it's clearly humanly impossible.
You can sustain screw attack cape flight in much the same manner as tail flight is sustained in SMB3. (Touch the ground for a frame while maintaining velocity and your flight timer resets.)
At times? More like ALL THE TIME. It is the height of stupidity when executed even once. I couldn't make it past 15 minutes in this $#!+ video because he spent half his time wobbling. It is stupid.
Do you people have such short attention spans that you have to be constantly fidgeting with something? You can't stand to wait for things to progress at their natural pace? You always have to be moving and doing and bothering? Just learn to @#$%ing wait. Patience is a virtue.
I have a new idea on how you can make the movie better. I don't know if it is even possible, since it's never been tried in a movie before ... but here it is.
At every available opportunity, repeatedly change the orientation of your character on successive frames. I know this sounds like a crazy, revolutionary idea, so I made up a little diagram, showing what you should do over a second of play time:
Frame 1: (>^^)>
Frame 2: <(^^<)
Frame 3: (>^^)>
Frame 4: <(^^<)
Frame 5: (>^^)>
Frame 6: <(^^<)
Frame 7: (>^^)>
Frame 8: <(^^<)
Frame 9: (>^^)>
Frame 10: <(^^<)
Frame 11: (>^^)>
Frame 12: <(^^<)
Frame 13: (>^^)>
Frame 14: <(^^<)
Frame 15: (>^^)>
Frame 16: <(^^<)
Frame 17: (>^^)>
Frame 18: <(^^<)
Frame 19: (>^^)>
Frame 20: <(^^<)
Frame 21: (>^^)>
Frame 22: <(^^<)
Frame 23: (>^^)>
Frame 24: <(^^<)
Frame 25: (>^^)>
Frame 26: <(^^<)
Frame 27: (>^^)>
Frame 28: <(^^<)
Frame 29: (>^^)>
Frame 30: <(^^<)
Frame 31: (>^^)>
Frame 32: <(^^<)
Frame 33: (>^^)>
Frame 34: <(^^<)
Frame 35: (>^^)>
Frame 36: <(^^<)
Frame 37: (>^^)>
Frame 38: <(^^<)
Frame 39: (>^^)>
Frame 40: <(^^<)
Frame 41: (>^^)>
Frame 42: <(^^<)
Frame 43: (>^^)>
Frame 44: <(^^<)
Frame 45: (>^^)>
Frame 46: <(^^<)
Frame 47: (>^^)>
Frame 48: <(^^<)
Frame 49: (>^^)>
Frame 50: <(^^<)
Frame 51: (>^^)>
Frame 52: <(^^<)
Frame 53: (>^^)>
Frame 54: <(^^<)
Frame 55: (>^^)>
Frame 56: <(^^<)
Frame 57: (>^^)>
Frame 58: <(^^<)
Frame 59: (>^^)>
Frame 60: <(^^<)
Let me know what you think.
Maybe you should fix EH1 and CP1 first. Those are the only levels I am familiar with, so are the only ones I can say for sure can be done faster. Additionally, TSC has a much faster time listed for CP2, you should look into that.
He threw the clutch on the cape the moment he was going to hit the lava. It's really obvious when he does it with Yoshi because you can see Yoshi straining. The animation doesn't change at all when he's doing the screw attack flying, so it looks mysterious.
As for Yoshi, I really don't know much about the game, but since he didn't do anything unusual there, it's probably safe to assume Yoshi turning blue is by design, that is, he turned blue by virtue of the magic wings, and it is intended as a reward in the game.
I enjoyed the Sonic 1 style initial jumps. I've never time attacked SMB (or any game other than Sonic 1) but I have to wonder how that hadn't been tried before, since it's the first thing you try in any game.
I agree with Bisqwit about the pipe entrance in 1-1 ... very sloppy.
I think a more attractive way to slow down in 8-2 should be found, perhaps similar to Michael Fried's or Mana's old 8-3 strats.
Lastly, how many people heard Michael Fried's "Do'h!" and head slap after seeing Phil's level starting strategy?
I liked that Mana hit the 1-up in 4-1, even though you can collect 2 coins there instead. I think it adds a little variety to an otherwise boring level. You might think about doing the same.
Obviously you can reach the vine in 4-2 without slowing down, as Michael Fried does, yet he (must?) backtrack to take the pipe up the vine instead of climbing. Does anyone know why what is done in the new video allows the pipe to be taken without backtracking? Why is backtracking needed in Michael Fried's case? Is it possible to combine the two strategies and not slow down and not backtrack?
Given my lack of knowledge I have deferred to a higher authority ... no, not you. Take the following quote with whatever grains of salt you will, but I have spoken with someone who has this to say about his own skill:
"yeah i'm ok. not world champ because i don't care to be or at least thats my convenient excuse. showtime steamrollered me every damn time but i know what good is."
And this is to say about your WC3 arguments:
"uhm ... its untrue? showtime has a number of 1v2 demos where he wins handily. and they are better than average players. and youre right its easier to 1v2 in sc than wc. clearly because wc3 requires more micromanangement ... against 2 average players, i do not hesitate to say a top player on the asian ladder could win 95 out of 100 times. my guess is this guy just doesnt know how to play the game ... he has a poor strategic grasp of the game, he is ineffective at macro control of the map, and his micro blows because wc lets you be lazy like that and its not obvious if youre not good because the game is paced so different in some ways compared to the one we all love, sc, all hail boxer, i cried at the end of game 5, too. bifrost is his map @#$%ing damn it."
Anyways, I'm not going to bother any of my friends about this argument any more, and I really don't have a leg to stand on myself when talking about the game in its current incarnation, so this'll be my last post on the subject. Feel free to get in the last word.
I'll be happy to 1vs2, you can even pick the races of me and my teamate :)
WarCraft 2's resource model is very primitive in that there are essentially no diminishing returns in assigning more workers to gather. Most people don't know how to safely and effectively exploit that, so of course it's easy to beat large numbers of average players. Even in more reasonable games like StarCraft, multiple "merely decent" players can be taken down by lesser numbers of "good" players because of economic imbalances.
Also, a note on WarCraft 3: though I honestly don't know, I can't believe it is that difficult for very competent players to defeat more numerous opponents. I don't own the game, but my college roommate and I were in the beta, and also played on some of the most popular bnetd beta servers (for those not lucky enough to get an autoberth into the beta ;) ). There is no word for what we were other than awesome, and literally, quite literally, we never lost a game (except against each other). We regularly played 2v3's, 2v4's, and occasionally 3v5's and 3v6's when we could locate a partner we thought was good enough. That being said, I didn't play 1v2 (though I consider 2v4's tougher), and I don't own the game because my experiences in the beta didn't convince me it was worth owning when I considered StarCraft the better game. I realize about a million new abilities were added in retail, and then there's the expansion, and then there's the post expansion neutral heros and items ... but I just can't believe the core game dynamic has changed so much that it is impossible to 1v2.
I enjoy this feature as well, though I prefer Sleepz's Zelda run to Phil's, and think someone first coming to the site will be turned off to the time attacking movement by watching Phil's video. Why? Phil's video looks needlessly and intentionally artificial, which, unlike in a movie like Gradius, is not the point.
Even if we were talking about a situation where /players n can be used, which we are not, it is rarely profitable to use it. It is only more efficient to increase the simulated number of players in a game if you are killing almost everything in 1 hit. This is because monster life scales by a factor of n while experience received scales by a factor of (n+1)/2.
Bob Whoops: Why yes, I do have a "magic formula" to play with, though it isn't so much a magic formula as it is a painfully obvious strategy that would be naturally and inadvertantly utilized by even a simpleton.
How to win TTT on an nxn board where you must get Min{n,3} in a row to win
1x1 and 2x2 are trivial. 3x3 is the one drawable case which is hopefully by now known to everyone. 4x4 is the most general case for all n>3, because if victory is possible on a 4x4 board, then you can pretend any larger board is a 4x4 board by ignoring the extra rows and columns.
4x4: Consider the middle 4 squares. Place an X in NE. If O plays in NW or SE, your next move is to place an X in SW. It should be clear at this point that you are won. If O plays in SW, your next move is to place an X in NW or SE. It should be clear at this point that you are won.
Draw in 2nd position in TTT on an nxn board where you must get n in a row to win
Find the row, column, or diagonal that has the most of his pieces on it, and none of your own. If there is more than one row, column, or diagonal that meets this requirement, pick one at random. Pick a random square in that row, column, or diagonal. Place your piece there.
I can't believe you people. "Min-max." "Clever algorithm." "Symmetry of the board." Sheesh.
If the requirement is to get Min{n,3} in a row on an nxn board, it is trivial that the player to move first has a forced win in all cases except 3x3. If the requirement is to get n in a row, then the game is obviously drawn for n>2.
Go back to playing video games. You will sound a lot less ridiculous.
Booda, a note concerning your edit. That is not why a level 24 character gets little experience from a Baal run, while a level 25 character gets tons. It's because the experience formula actually changes at level 25.
Prior to level 25, for monsters 10 levels or more higher than you (which is everything in a Baal run), you receive only 5% of the experience that has already been split proportionally among your group members according to level. That is, you will receive:
L = Your level
S = Sum of levels of group members present
1.35 is a party multiplier
Base EXP depends on the monster and number of players in the game
Actual EXP = 1.35 * L/S * 0.05 * Base EXP
After level 25, for any monster above your own level, the penalizing multiplier changes from 5% to your fraction of the monster's level. That is, you will receive:
L = Your level
S = Sum of levels of group members present
M = Monster's level
1.35 is a party multiplier
Base EXP depends on the monster and number of players in the game
Actual EXP = 1.35 * L/S * L/M * Base EXP
Even for Hell Baal (level 99) at level 25, L/M > 0.25 > 0.05. For most other monsters, L/M is even larger. Additionally, since L/S and L/M are constantly getting larger as you level, you experience very little of the diminishing returns intended by Blizzard until the mosters you are being leveled on become a lower level than you, or you hit 70, where the formula changes again.
Booda:
Incorrect, the Ancients experience is indeed multiplied by players in the game, however, it's still 0. The experience rewarded is not for killing the monsters but for completing a quest. My "not always" was referring to your claim that 8 people should be present in every game where something is killed.
I repeat, the target player is always slower, in all cases. There are no "extremities" [sic]. 0.1% of good experience is better than 100% of garbage.
10-20 minutes is way off, see a previous post.
Only because I changed the wording of the requirements, one set of Ancients is a barrier. (Before, none of the Ancients needed to be completed, hence I stipulated the character had to pass through DESTRUCTION'S END in Hell.) The "main goal" in this case is then figuring out the fastest way to get from 1 to 60 once you are in Hell.
Boco: True Blizzard fanboys often willfully deny the existence of Hellfire ... it wasn't even made by Blizzard!
Booda: I think people would find it fun to watch because no one knows the best strategies, they are very dissimilar to your standard "playing Diablo" experience, and certainly some of them could be classified as ridiculous.
In response to your notes:
- Not always.
- Not necessarily, depending.
- Target character will always be too slow.
- For the purposes of leveling, as far as I know, optimal equipment requiring higher levels in the assisting character is better than a slower, lower level assisting character.
Zurreco:
The times I mentioned were done without maphack and without illegitimate/hacked gear, and, indeed, without a "maxed out blessed hammer" setup! Be more creative. (Additionally, your memory needs some refreshing. Heaven forfend you should ever put points in fanaticism on a hammerdin.)
Booda:
I specified that the assisted rush should get from creation to defeating Hell Baal for a reason. Don't forget you can't set foot in the Normal/Nightmare/Hell Worldstone Keeps until level 20/40/60 respectively. There is forced leveling in patch 1.10, which is why it takes so much longer than patch 1.09. The real question is, where and when should this forced leveling take place, and how should it be accomplished? Also, until the rushee gets to Hell, the rusher's equipment would be largely immaterial, and would make very little difference even then, as long as it was "sufficient." The true nightmare in orchestrating a 15 minute zero to Hell Baal run is logistical.
If you in fact were referring to "Solo, creation through normal Baal," then obviously you are not permitted any "twinks," that is, you may not recieve gear or assistance from others, though you may certainly create new games as you deem necessary. Doing it in hardcore would also be counterproductive as death can be used as a shortcut.
EDIT: I suppose I really should change the assisted run to "creation through stepping through the DESTRUCTION'S END portal in the Hell Worldstone Chamber."
