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I tested some stuff against rootmars2 and here's what I found so far:
1. Using knife on the nose is noticeably slower because you can only attack in one direction (towards the right) and you can't stay crouched the whole time. The best way I found to use knife on the nose was the following (each action takes 2 frames) knife (while crouching) -> wait -> stop crouching and press left -> press right -> use knife again (while crouching). When I try to attack again after turning to the left while crouching (to cancel the knife animation), the player ends up trying to use the gun instead of the knife.
2. Using F is definitely better than S. Even when firing from the nose, F can still do about 280 damage (vs 200 from S). You can also use F faster than S (30 frames between each shot of F vs 38 frames between each shot of S). The big F doesn't do extra damage to rootmars2.
3. After some quick calculations, I'm finding that G is faster than F even though I only get 20 shots and have to use only knife till the next red ball. The main difference is in the speed you can use knife. For F, I have to continuously use the slower version of knife attacks (I was able to get in three knife attacks between each shot of F), but for G, I can jump onto the brain and start using faster knife before I get another G.
I think taking the 2 F to rootmars2 is best. F+knife does so much more damage to rootmars2 than S+knife that I think it's worth taking both F's. By the time the first red ball shows up, I think I'll have used up all of the big F so I can start getting G right away for player 1 while player 2 continues to use F. The problem is figuring out the best way to destroy the hoop shooting bots before rootmars2 and how to avoid the D that the second one drops. And of course, manipulating rootmars2 to cooperate.
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HappyLee wrote:
I thought you would use 2 shotguns one for each player, because S is much more efficient than F at the bubble and the doors, and you probably don't need to save much for the boss, for you can get as many bombs, F or G as you want in theory from the orange bubbles. Maybe there's a special reason you choose to use C and F for the other player rather than S?
I gave both S to one player with the plan of taking 2 F to rootmars2 after mtvf1 mentioned it was possible to do so. I figured I wouldn't lose too much time from having only one player use S.
mtvf1 wrote:
In next place, the choice is very important. Get 2F or 1F 1S? F is faster in boss fight, but slower when beating enemies.
I'm still planning getting 2 F for rootmars. I think it should also be better for fighting the hoop shooting bots?
HappyLee wrote:
For the next stage, I don't know if the two machines (or what its name) are useful at all. But I'm a little worried that 20 bombs may not be enough to clear the way.
I think the slug noid (first slug) can be useful for destroying the 3rd door. I think there's a way to throw it such that it destroys all three bubbles. The cannons from the Rebel slug (second slug) might also be useful for fighting the hoop shooting bots. If it turns out to be slow, then at a minimum, the bots can still be destroyed with 4 shots of F and a couple bombs so I think 20 bombs should be fine.
HappyLee wrote:
I've tested that and you're right. The trick does add great difficulty to luck manipulation, though.
Do you know much faster this was compared to using just the knife? Depending on how much faster this is than using just knife, this might help with the decision of whether to give all the S to one player or not in the previous part because if I give S to both players, I can only take 1 F to rootmars2.
G is the best option for rootmars 2 if it's faster than using F + knife. If not, then bombs are better. Is there a pattern to how often the red balls appear? It seems that they appear less frequently than using just 1 player. And I don't think there should be any change to the items you can get from them for 2 players so getting G should be possible.
Edit: the Rebel Slug cannons only do 100 damage (same as bomb) so i think it'll be useless.
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Marco rescued
8306 frames saved in total. Wow. It's amazing how having 80 bombs can speed things up a lot. Against rootmars1, I ended up not trying to manipulate an extra L because I concluded that it wasn't necessary for the next part. There's a small trick against rootmars1 where if you jump at the right time when rootmars is defeated, you'll get pulled to the right side, so you'll leave the screen earlier, which saves some frames.
In the next part, I basically bomb everything that's in the way. I only use the metal slug to help fight the giant alien walker. After destroying the walker, it becomes useless as the cannon and vulcan are too slow. The hoop shooting bots have a lot less HP when you engage them without being inside a slug (huge decrease from 1600HP to 750HP). Manipulating the 2 shotguns wasn't too bad, the weapons dropped by the bots are determined by the actions you do right before they appear.
When destroying the bubble, I ended up using F along with bombs and S. This because after I throw 2 bombs, I have to wait 8 frames before I can throw 2 more bombs so might as well use F to do some damage on frames where you can't do anything else. The bombs don't hit the bubble instantly when you throw them while crouching, but it's still faster to throw them the way I did. At the end, if you time your jump, you can land on the pathway during Marco's cutscene which results in you leaving the screen earlier and saving some frames.
The next part is only serious till the first door. I'm testing some ideas for this part. I think the best and efficient way to destroy the first two doors is to use 2 bombs and 2 S.
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Alright, watching the encode made me inspired again to work on this (thanks for the encode HappyLee). I will try to work on this run when I have time. Hopefully I can get it done within a few months.
mtvf1 wrote:
I wright this another simple lua hp display, hopefully it can help you.
Thanks for the lua script, mtvf1.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Uhm... Wouldn't be faster to use bombs to kill the UFOs at 18:18?
Probably. I'm not sure why I didn't use them there (it's been more than 2 years since I worked on this). I don't want to go all the way back there and re-do it from that point. That's something I'll leave to the next person who tries to improve my run.
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Sorry to bring this up, but how's the run going, zk547?
By the way, I've always been planning to do a Metal Slug 3 TAS, but I find it difficult because FBA-rr crashes and desyncs so much, so is there any good way to keep it stable? Also, does anyone here know if there's a way to make FBA-rr skip lag frames automatically? Thanks in advance. :)
Hey, I actually haven't worked on this since I last posted my WIP. The emulator and the fact that some parts of the run weren't completely optimized made me lose motivation, unfortunately. As far as I know, there isn't a good way to keep the emulator stable. I've had to re-start/re-download the emulator multiple times before I was able to record stuff. As for the desyncs, I just hope for the best. Sometimes it plays back perfectly without any problems, other times it desyncs. I don't know what causes this to happen. Maybe the most recent version of FBA (0.0.7 I believe?) might be more stable (I used 0.0.5).
I don't how to make FBA-rr skip lag frames :( Maybe mtvf1 might know?
I wish there could be a more stable emulator for these arcade games.
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That 5-3 improvement looks awesome.
By the way, why do you use dynamic recompiler? Well, it may shorten some loading frames, but I think it's not that safe for TASing... (syncing stuffs maybe?)
I figured it would help shorten loading frames and make everything outside of the levels go faster (map transition, etc). I haven't ran into issues with syncing stuff yet.
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Can you try posting a movie file with the red block appearing, and a file that doesn't appear, but has everything else match up to that point? That may make investigation (somewhat) easier.
Here's two files. The first one completes 1-2 as fast as possible and a new red block appears on the map afterward. The second one waits in front of the flag for a long time and then gets the flag. A new red block doesn't appear in the map after grabbing the flag. Both files have the same RNG values when grabbing the flag, according to the addresses posted in the submission text of the current any%. When Luigi grabs the flagpole at any point before frame 7720, a new red block appears. From frame 7720 and onward, no red block appears. I'm not sure if it's RNG or a frame rule of some sort.
New Red Block SpawnsNo Red Block
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Suuper (or anyone else who TAS'ed this game before), do you happen to know why a new red block sometimes spawns in the map right after you complete a level where you used it and sometimes it doesn't? In my WIP, when I get the 1-2 flag asap, a new red block spawns on the map afterward, but when I wait for a long time without doing anything and then get the flag, the new red block doesn't appear even though I still get the same RNG values. I can't seem to get the new red block to not appear, which is unfortunate considering the fact that both any%'s manage to get the perfect map RNG.
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Yes I have. It's really close, but I can't make it over, I fall just short of it. I tried varying my x-position to jump from the farthest right on the blocks as possible, but no luck. Unless there's a way to get triple jump height while inside the shell or travel at faster speeds than 72, I don't think it's possible. If only the gap was only narrower by one block...
Edit: It turns out that I actually lost two frames from map RNG and the one I have isn't ideal at all. I don't know why sometimes a new red block spawns immediately after I complete a level where I used it and sometimes it doesn't.
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I optimized the wall jumps off both blocks, getting the koopa shell, and the last teeter- totter part, which saved 15 additional frames. I also managed to get rid of the pipe entry delay which saved an additional 9 frames. It looks like the pipe entry delay depends on the inputs you do before reaching the pipe (when I let go of right for a few frames, I was able to enter the pipe immediately, but if I held right throughout, I couldn't enter the pipe for 9 frames). I didn't get the ideal map RNG afterward with another red block spawning, but after some testing I found that I'm still able to move on the same frame as I would have if I had gotten the ideal RNG. So I might continue this to see how far I get.
1-2 improved363 hype
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I found an improvement in 1-2 at the walljump off the red block so it needs to be re-done. I still don't know what causes pipe entry delay for some of the pipes.
I tried to watch your WIP's, but the RNG manipulation (red block movements in the map) doesn't line up. I still managed to watch all of the first WIP because you still get the blue shell in 1-2, but in the second WIP you get a 1up mushroom in 1-2.
I love how he uses the shell's double jump ability. :)
Any idea how to do this? I haven't been able to figure out how.
The speedy downhill shell trick is a huge boost on 5-2
Do you mean 5-3? There's no koopa shell you can use in 5-2 or a downward slope for that matter.
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New any% in 20:43.72 by Onii Channel2Improvement to any% 1-2 by Hartmann
So it looks like some new tricks have been discovered with the blue shell recently. The two main ones are using the shell-speed gaining trick in combination with the Starman power, which allows you to travel at 72 speed both on the ground and the air, and seemingly "double jumping" out of a duck jump. Those tricks can save a lot of time as seen in the new any%.
I still think there's a few improvements that could be made in the new any%, so I made a short WIP of 1-1 and 1-2 that incorporates Hartmann's improvements to 1-2 with DeSmuMe 0.9.9 with Advanced Bus-Level Timing OFF and dynamic recompiler at 100. Unfortunately, I have a problem with pipe entry delay at the end of 1-2 and bad map RNG afterward, so I stopped here for now. The WIP currently saves 1 frame in 1-1 and 109 frames in 1-2 over the current any%.
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I've been using the lua, I just didn't get that far to actually see the power reduction. I only knew from experience. If the big F damage has been reduced 5 per 2 frames, I think it's best not to use the big F at all against the bubble (one big F will do less damage than one grenade). Player 1 should get the big F and use bombs against the bubble while player 2 should get the big S (2 if possible, but 1 might be enough).
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I've quickly tested rootmars1 and it looks like I'll have 3 F left over to carry over to the next part. Also, I'll only be able to get 1 L because rootmars1 dies before the 2nd energy ball hits the ground (Though I think it's fine since I'll have the metal slug and bombs). I think 3 F is enough for the next part for the giant alien spider. There's no need to have any F after that, player 2 will get out of the metal slug to lower the bots health and player 1 will get in the metal slug to use cannon + vulcan. The bots after that drop weapons (C, H, and I) that are much better to use against the bots than F.
So if I used bombs before, I will have a lot more F left over that won't get used before I start using other weapons. I think it's better to use F when I can and use bombs when I don't have F, unless knife > F in terms of damage.
Another thing to consider: I think the bots that come from the left in the next part can drop big S. I've seen it happen in one player mode. X2poet said in an earlier post that he wasn't able to get the bots to drop big S, but I think they can drop big S. I've seen a 2 player run where one of them dropped a big S.
The reason to get 2 big S is because of the part where I rescue Marco. The big F cannot do full damage to the "bubble." In one player lvl 4, the bubble has 250 hp so 13 big S was enough to destory it, but I've used all 30 big F on it and it still didn't destroy it and required extra big H to destroy it. I'm not sure how much damage big F does, but if I do get it, it should not be used to rescue Marco. I'm think the best thing to do would be to give player 2 both big S and then have player 1 get the big F and use bombs on the bubbles or even have both players get 1 big S each and skip the big F.
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I didn't use bombs because I wanted to use more F because I didn't want to have too much F left over. Though maybe I might want more F to keep till the giant alien spider in the clone part and maybe the first bot after that. Where do you think I should use bombs and how many? I think if I do use bombs, it should be when I fight the giant alien spiders.
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up to rootmars1
Wow! 5440 frames saved in total so far! I gave player 1 2 F because I had that planned from the start (player 2 had more L too) and I didn't see any disadvantages with player 1 getting the F. Most of the aliens are skipped by scrolling the screen at the right time, the ones that are fought cannot be skipped. When fighting the hoop shooting bots, I use F twice on each bot, getting 10 hits for each bots and using L to finish them off. I had to use one grenade on the last bot in order to destroy it fast enough for player 2 to get the R before it disappeared. Getting R is right, it helps destroy the next bot and the "door" a lot faster.
In the next part, I re-obtain L from the alien spider for player 2. The first giant alien spider and the bot after can be skipped by screen scrolling at the right time. Although the bot has the satellite, it also has 800 hp and I think L is better to have because I can have it going into rootmars1.
As for rootmars1, I plan on manipulating L from the energy balls. X2poet was able to get 3 L before rootmars1 died, but since I have 18 F, I think I'll only be able to get 2 L from rootmars1 because I'll destroy it faster. Though I believe 1 L for each player is enough because I can use the L trick and the fact that the bots have a lot less health when you spawn them while out of the metal slug.
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Wouldn't giving F to player 1 be better because I can throw bombs during the delay between each F? I can cancel L by crouching or turning around while crouching.
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wip up to 2 F
So it turns out that it was best if all of the walls were destroyed as fast as possible. However, destroying the last 4 walls as fast as possible only saved a few frames and took a lot more bombs, so it's best to just use L. The only walls that should be destroyed fast are the first wall and the second wall (only use 2 grenades on the second wall). I also destroy certain enemies faster to spawn the next enemies early.
In the next part, the 3rd hoop-shooting bot can be skipped by screen scrolling to the left at the right time as I do in the wip. I have an interesting idea which is to give both F to player 1. Most of the aliens after the 2 F can be skipped with screen scrolling and the bots don't take that much longer to destroy with F and L because F can't do full damage. I can also take advantage of the weapons that come out later (maybe R/L or satellite) while still having plenty of F. Though even if this idea doesn't work, it's still possible to take 1 F farther that x2poet did, maybe even up to rootmars 1. Currently saved 4411 frames.
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Inside the mothership
I tried giving S to player 1, but I couldn't manipulate the aliens to drop bombs every time. I think the main thing that is important is the boss's hp at a certain frame and L is needed to be able to change the hp better. 21 missiles was barely enough, maybe I should've saved a few more missiles from the beginning. But both players getting 99 bombs would have taken way too long.
Inside the UFO, I destory some enemies to spawn the next group of enemies quicker. The first wall must be destroyed as fast as possible to spawn the mini ufo's as soon as possible. I used one grenade because there was an opportunity to do damage to three of them at once and I only had pistol and H. The second wall only has to be destroyed fast enough. If you take too long, you have to fight three extra aliens (one of them gives H, which is useless) before the group of five (that gives one L). 2 grenades is enough for the 2nd wall.
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I used L so that I could control the timing of when I fire and the boss's hp better. Giving player one a S might be better since I could use the Rocket's S to control the timing. Though depending on how much I have to fire to manipulate, I might end up destroying both UFO's before I get all my grenades.
I think the best place to throw the 2nd rocket is after I destroy the first wall since that should be destroyed fast and the enemies after that drop L's if you're not in a slug.
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almost there (90 bombs + 21 missiles)
Somehow, player 2 ended up saving 1 missile before the midboss. The red meteorite before the blue meteorites also gave a bomb item when I only have one rocket. I think keeping one rocket is better. I have to manipulate much less and it helps me lose less time. At the third UFO/mothership, should I use any of the bombs to speed up the fight or save them? I know I'll use at least 1 because when player 1 has 90 bombs, the final bomb item can only give 9 bombs so it's best to have 89 bombs when getting the final bomb item.
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manipulation wip
I had to give all 4 S to one player and 1 L to the other because the manipulation was determined by when I actually used my weapon and if I had just S, there would be times when I can't fire. I'm having some trouble trying to manipulate more bombs from the aliens. Right now, after I get 60 bombs for both players, the next alien will drop bombs, but I can't get the alien after that to drop bombs. Though I'm starting to think that getting 99 bombs for both player might not be worth the time it costs. Either get little less (70~80 maybe?) or just have one player get 99 and the other player keeps the rocket and gets missiles.
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wip up to midboss
I'm going to try to give up both rockets to see if I can get bombs for both players in a reasonable time. mtvf1, do you know what affects the items the aliens will drop? I managed to get the first alien to drop bomb for now.
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Alright tested throwing both rockets again and discovered that I can get 4 S before the midboss so about 38 bullets for each player (few shots to kill the aliens before the midboss). Inside the mothership, I was able to get enough L for both players to take it to the next part before I get 2 F. I'm starting to think throwing both rockets might be better. At the very least, throwing both rockets inside the mothership might be better.
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