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Posted: 6/29/2014 1:35 AM

zk547

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manipulation wip I had to give all 4 S to one player and 1 L to the other because the manipulation was determined by when I actually used my weapon and if I had just S, there would be times when I can't fire. I'm having some trouble trying to manipulate more bombs from the aliens. Right now, after I get 60 bombs for both players, the next alien will drop bombs, but I can't get the alien after that to drop bombs. Though I'm starting to think that getting 99 bombs for both player might not be worth the time it costs. Either get little less (70~80 maybe?) or just have one player get 99 and the other player keeps the rocket and gets missiles.

Posted: 6/20/2014 4:37 AM

zk547

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wip up to midboss I'm going to try to give up both rockets to see if I can get bombs for both players in a reasonable time. mtvf1, do you know what affects the items the aliens will drop? I managed to get the first alien to drop bomb for now.

Posted: 6/10/2014 9:11 PM

zk547

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Alright tested throwing both rockets again and discovered that I can get 4 S before the midboss so about 38 bullets for each player (few shots to kill the aliens before the midboss). Inside the mothership, I was able to get enough L for both players to take it to the next part before I get 2 F. I'm starting to think throwing both rockets might be better. At the very least, throwing both rockets inside the mothership might be better.

Posted: 6/10/2014 1:28 PM

zk547

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I initially had that idea, throwing both rockets, because inside the mothership, I can get L and one of the alien chains (the red one followed by 4 normal ones) before the midboss drops a bomb item. The main problem is the midboss, the UFO's had a lot of health and since human players shoot S slower and only single L, it took a long time to destroy the ships. Though if I'm farming for bombs, that won't be too much of a problem since I can attack it while waiting for aliens to come out. The third UFO/mothership could be sped up by using some of the bombs I get. I agree that G is the best choice against Rootmars2 after F. Does the smoke of G also damage Rootmars? Where can I get a 2nd F? Do you mean the big F that appears before I have to rescue Marco?

Posted: 6/9/2014 4:28 PM
(Edited: 1/30/2017 8:13 AM)

zk547

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Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 134

I think whichever player gets 99 bombs depends on who is better off at using them on Rootmars (final boss). In x2poet's run, player 2 is able to exit the Metal Slug earlier and attack first, but lands at a bad location to use F. So I'm pretty sure player 1 will end up with F and player 2 will have S (or D?) going into Rootmars. It depends on whether F does more damage to Rootmars than S or not. Are you sure 20 missiles is enough? It looks like x2poet uses nearly 20 missiles from both rockets to finish the midboss after he gets missiles. And I should still try to have some missiles to use inside the mothership. Edit: After seeing other videos, I think it's best to throw player 1's rocket. It is possible to get 10+ hits with F on Rootmars, which means it'll do 200 damage from just the mainflame, meaning F can do more damage to Rootmars than S. Unless Rootmars has some sort of resistance to F.

Posted: 6/9/2014 5:32 AM

zk547

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I've been thinking about how to approach the space part. Right now, I'm thinking of using all missiles with one player to destroy the first ufo's fast and then throw it before the asteroids so that I can have L in human form before the midboss. The rocket will get S because it can fire S faster (Unless using L for rocket is better because it can fire two lasers, then the human player gets S). At the midboss, I'm going to get 99 bombs for one player and 30~40 missiles for the rocket to speed up the rest of the midboss and destroy certain enemies faster inside the mothership. This means that I would have to manipulate 12~13 bomb items from the aliens.

Posted: 6/8/2014 7:12 AM

zk547

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Morden Defeated! Wow. Morden was a hard boss to do, especially at the beginning of the fight. I had to delay shooting with Marco by 18 frames at the start in order to manipulate him to go low so that Fio could throw all her grenades at him while using turnaround-cancel. I do this at the beginning because I don't know if I'll have the opportunity to do it later, which turned out to be the right thing to do. I originally had planned to have both Fio and Marco stay on the platform, but it became nearly impossible to throw grenades fast, because I have to hit the ship because hitting Morden himself with grenades doesn't do any damage. Not to mention that Morden sometimes doesn't take damage from bullets too. Later on, I had to let two of Marco's H miss because of bad luck, I couldn't manipulate him to stay low all the time, though even if I had better luck, I'm not sure if I could've manipulated him to come down again like I did. There are I think 2~3 times where I had to delay shooting with one character to properly manipulate Morden. Though having 19 more grenades and having Marco stay on the platform to use faster H and then turnaround-canceled pistol allowed me to save a lot of time. Total of 4011 frames saved.

Posted: 6/2/2014 8:43 PM

zk547

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For 99 bombs, I would need to get 10 bomb items from the aliens and then a few more for the rocket missiles. Wouldn't that cost too much time? I don't know if it'll be worth it unless the enemies have less health if I throw both rockets, which I would then consider throwing the slugs.

Posted: 6/2/2014 1:14 PM

zk547

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For Morden, is there any reason to leave any grenades? Right now, I don't see any reason and am planning on using all of my grenades on him, but just in case I'm missing something... Edit: new wip up to Allen Not much. Just changes the end of the Allen fight after doing the glitch. Instead of waiting for extra grenades, I destroy Allen as soon as possible. I had to hit the ship with H to make the soldier shooting the missile disappear quickly and make Allen appear faster. The pistol can't reach the soldier so I could only use H. Total of 3103 frames saved.

Posted: 6/1/2014 11:58 PM

zk547

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up to Allen There is a glitch against Allen where if you manage to destroy a truck while it's overlapping with his ship, he will take infinite damage and will die from just a pistol shot. I knew about it, but I wasn't sure if I could pull it off in two player. Fortunately, I managed to find out a way to do it. Because of that, I can throw away my slugs at the first helicopter to destroy it faster and get extra grenades from the tank before Allen. For now, this wip gets the extra grenades at the end, but that can be changed.

Posted: 6/1/2014 11:23 PM

zk547

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Getting extra grenades from an extra motorcycle will cost 180~190 frames. Is it worth it?

Posted: 6/1/2014 5:11 AM

zk547

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What's Allen's hp? Do you know? I did some quick testing and so far I'll keep the slugs till 52-51. Whether I'll completely give up bombs or not still has to be tested. Throwing them early takes way too long.

Posted: 6/1/2014 2:06 AM

zk547

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Back to this game again. I want to try to finish this. I'm currently in the first part about to fight the first helicopter after you descend through the clouds. Though there are choices I have to make. After fighting the two helicopters, there is a bomb item that flies around. x2poet opted for more missiles in order to destroy Allen faster. However, if you throw the slugs against Allen, motorcycle soldiers appear at ingame times of 56-55 and 52-51, where you can get more bombs. With more missiles, x2poet destroyed Allen around 53-52. I think the best scenario is to get bombs from the first item, throw the slugs against Allen as late as possible and still get the first bomb from the first motorcycle, and then destory Allen with pistols and get the second bomb from the second motorcycle. But I don't know how much slower using pistol would be or even if I can destory Allen fast enough pistol. If it's too slow, I'd probably just get two bomb items, use the slugs till around 52-51 and then throw them.

Posted: 5/31/2014 1:25 PM

zk547

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By the way, I edited the rerecord count to 58000.

Thanks

Does anyone else think it should obsolete both existing runs? Given the objectives of this one, it looks sane, even though I don't know Metal Slugs well.

I think it would depend on whether having different characters as different categories is worth it or not.

Posted: 5/27/2014 8:36 PM

zk547

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Somehow, I think the rerecord count is incorrect on this submission... you couldn't have done this all with 58 rerecords.

No, of course not. 58000 would be a more accurate number of rerecords. I often made multiple dsm files while keeping the old one to test things and compare, which would often start me back at 0 rerecords if I went with the new dsm. I didn't feel like editing the number of rerecords before submitting.

This was a fun run. It is a shame to see how long the sixth boss takes, but it's definitely better to see it this way than to see all the deaths in the previous run to get Tarma.

It's definitely a shame that the sixth boss is a lot slower with Eri than Tarma, but I guess it can't be helped. I prefer no death too.

Posted: 5/24/2014 5:23 AM

zk547

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new wip up to final boss I optimized the part where I have to destroy the beam and managed to kill all the soldiers without using S, which saved lag and frames. Jumping through the stone and using a new strategy at the end saved more frames. 56 frames were saved. So I'm now 639 frames ahead going into part 3. Overall, I managed to save 19 frames in part 3. EDIT: It turns out that I still lost frames at the beam part. Before I start destroying it, I was 637 frames ahead, but after I destroy it, I'm only 625 frames ahead. I also lose 8 frames near the end. Jumping through the stone allowed to be ahead by 647 frames at one point.

Posted: 5/23/2014 7:13 PM

zk547

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Jumping through the stone will save about 14 frames.

I think keeping tentacles on the side has the more lag. Because you can't make it out screen at first time.

Hm.. good point. Keeping them close to the side might be better. I will redo the last parts of mission 7.

Posted: 5/23/2014 12:14 AM

zk547

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all tentacles Lost 76 frames from not dying for bombs. Even though S and Z can do multiple damage, having bombs to spare can save time. Unfortunately, when you do a deathless run, there's a limit to how much bombs you can save without losing too much time.

Edit: there is a chance of jumping through the stone when stone falling in part 3. Jump into the lower left of stone.

Do you have a dsm that demonstrates this? I tried to jump through it, but couldn't do it.

Posted: 5/21/2014 5:37 PM

zk547

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first two tentacles I saved the two grenades at the end of part 3, which somehow saved 8 frames. I also did the first two tentacles and manipulated a grenade to come out after the 2nd tentacle died. It seems that Z can only do a maximum of 500 damage on the 2nd tentacle. Because of that, I had to use one more S, which costed a few extra frames.

Posted: 5/21/2014 4:04 AM

zk547

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mission 7 up to final boss This is my first attempt at doing part 3. I used 4 more grenades at the boss before, so I saved 29 more frames. So I had 620 frames saved. In part 3, I tried to save grenades whenever possible. Though I lose 45 frames at the end, leaving me with 575 frames ahead in total. Maybe at the end, I shouldn't use the two grenades to destroy the tank faster? Will the soldiers still come out at the same time from the right if I just use S and pistol?

Posted: 5/19/2014 7:19 AM

zk547

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mission 7 up to first boss Lost 263 frames from all of part 2. I actually saved about 30 frames at the area right before the boss, but it costed me a lot of frames elsewhere trying to save grenades. Though I believe that some of the frames were lost from lag from having to use a lot more big H, L, and pistol. I was originally going to save 15 grenades, but ended up using one more grenade on the boss because it helped me time the last S hit. So I have 14 grenades and 10 Z saved from part 2. 591 frames ahead going into part 3.

Posted: 5/17/2014 8:41 PM

zk547

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mission 6 and part 1 of mission 7 Let me start off by saying that Allen was a frustrating boss to do, mainly because he can only be damaged once every 4 frames and trying to manipulate him to just stand there and shoot projectiles at you. Nevertheless, I tried my best to optimize and because I'm not Tarma, I lose 484 frames from the boss battle. In mission 7, there is a trick where if you throw away the slug flyer at the moment you're supposed to fight all the soldiers for a while, the screen will scroll right away, allowing you to skip that part and save about 440 frames. Also, going along the ground when in the slug flyer is slightly faster. Doing that advances your X position by an alternating 4 and 5 rather than just by 4 if you stay in the air. Because I'm not going to die, I have to save some grenades from the beginning, which will make me lose frames, but it can't be helped. The big H and L will have a bigger role in the mission. Saved 854 frames going into part 2.

Posted: 4/10/2014 4:46 PM

zk547

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Eszik wrote: Hello‚ I would be really interested in TASing this game :D Since the last WIPs desync with 0.9.10‚ I began to redo the World 1‚ but I saw you talking about several tricks that I didn't fond any explanations for. So could you please answer some of my questions ? - What is the "shell-speed gaining trick" ? I understood this was something about holding a direction while wanting to go to the opposite‚ but how does it work ? - What is the trick with the fireball ? I didn't really understood‚ firing a fireball while jumping saves time ? - How does the RNG work ? I saw you talking about double jumps or something like that‚ but I didn't understand very well xD

1: The shell-speed gaining trick is a trick you can do with the blue shell that was discovered by YOSH1. Basically you stand at the very end of a ledge and duck while holding THE OPPOSITE direction of where you want to go (left if you want to move right, right if you want to move left). If done correctly, you should start gaining speed at a much faster rate. You only gain speed faster when you're airborne, so if you're not at 48 speed before you hit the ground, jump on the first possible frame to stay airborne and you will continue to gain speed at the faster rate. What makes this trick really useful is that once you're at 48 speed, you can stay on the ground and still move at 48 speed. You can see it done in various places in my WIP, a good example is the underground section of 1-4 and the end of 1-A 2. The fireball trick is what mindnomad said, using a fireball right after you walljump. It allows you to gain speed much faster. 3. The RNG is mainly changed by double jumps and walljumps. Triple jumps DO NOT change the RNG. According to YOSH1, staying on the seesaws in 1-2 also changes the RNG and breaking certain bricks also changes it. Though if I remember correctly, it usually doesn't. Inducing fireworks at the end of the level by getting the same last two digits of the timer also changes the RNG, but this is something that we don't have to worry about because a TAS would never try to get fireworks.

Posted: 3/16/2014 2:23 PM

zk547

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Hey. I haven't looked at this since YOSH1 last posted his improvements to 1-2. I've been considering restarting my WIP at some point because of the improvements and the fact that version 0.9.10 is available, making 0.9.8 really outdated now, but I haven't had the motivation to starting working on this again. Here's the route I had planned originally (world by world, didn't plan out power-ups): W1, 1st visit (1-1, 1-2(alt), 1-T, cannon) W1, 2nd visit (finish the rest of the levels) W2, 1st visit (2-1, 2-2, 2-3 (both), 2-A (both), Castle (alt)) W4, 1st visit (all levels except either 4-4 or 4-A and 4-ghost (alt)) W5, 1st visit (5-1, 5-2(both), 5-3, 5-ghost(both),cannon) W2, 2nd visit (cannon) W5, 2nd visit (finish the rest of the levels) W6, (all levels) W2, 3rd visit (finish the rest of the levels) W3, 1st visit (3-A, 3-2 (either both or normal depending on how I need to manipulate the map), 3-Tower, 3-3, 3-ghost(both), cannon) W3, 2nd visit (finish the rest of the levels) W4, 2nd visit (4-4 or 4-A (whichever one wasn't done earlier), 4-ghost(alt), cannon) W7, (all levels) W8, (all levels, finish the game) The main thing I prioritized was minimizing the number of times you move from one world to another because doing that uses so much frames. I would be interested in helping, but I want to try to finish some of my other TASes that I started a while ago (Metal Slug 7).

Posted: 1/28/2014 4:47 PM

zk547

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It's very very hard to manipulate boss action, if don't use Tarma. Because you don't have enough HP to let Allen only use rocket.

You still managed to do it in your Marco run though, right? It's possible to destroy all three different types of projectile attacks with hands.

Quote: Also, it seems that if you move forward while using vulcan, some of the hits don't register and the boss loses less hp even though you see all shots hitting the boss...

Yes, I know that. What i meant was this: shooting while moving shooting while standing Take a look at the two dsms. The first one presses B and → at same time and moves toward the boss. The second one just presses B and stands still. However, in the first dsm, only four of the five shots register while in the second dsm, all five shots register. From what I'm seeing, it seems that moving causes some of the bullets to slightly overlap and somehow this causes the boss only get hit by one of the shots instead of both.

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