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nope. Comparing to my old wip, I think the main difference is that having S allows you to destroy the helicopter fast enough before the soldier even appears.
EDIT: I managed to do it. I had to use all of my firebombs to destroy it fast. Since I'll have 0 firebombs for part 3, I will lose a few frames.
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So I tried to destroy the first helicopter in part 2 with only G and pistol, but I'm not able to to destroy it in a way that also kills the flying bazooka soldier quickly in order to get the screen to scroll immediately after I destroy the helicopter. Using a firebomb smoke to kill the soldier doesn't work because the soldier burns all the way to the bottom and the screen waits for the the soldier to disappear.
So it seems that even though it is possible to save enough G to skip S, the S still has to be taken in order to do the helicopter part quickly, unfortunately.
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So I redid the helicopter fight and managed to destroy them fast enough with just 2 firebombs and pistol. In fact it even saved 5 frames! 1 more frame was saved from the screen transition. This means that I have the extra G I need so the S can be skipped, which means the mission will have to be redone.
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Did you try to give up S? Because many manchine no need to be destroyed at first. And you can beat the two helicopters together.
I did at first, but I decided that I would need more G than I could save from the beginning. Without S, I would need about 8 extra G, which would mean saving 3~4 G from the beginning (since i have 4 left at the end). But I'm not sure if I could destroy the helicopters fast enough with just firebombs and pistol because I would have to wait for them to get together.
Faster Vulcan is easier. vulcan every 20 frames autofire 5 times. You can press B at 17 and 18 frames.
Do I press B 2 frames after I press it at 17/18 frames? So (→B)(→B)(wait 17/18 frames)(→B)(→B)(blank)(blank)(→B)(→B)? Maybe a dsm file that demonstrates it would help? Sorry, but I'm not sure if I'm getting it correctly.
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wip up to boss battle
I saved 995 frames in total before the boss battle. The gundam part was frustrating because I would save frames and then lose frames. In the end, I saved around 13~14 frames in that part. I think walking 14~16 frames, then jumping, and then walking a little longer before the last jump is the best way to go. Walking 16~18 frames didn't yield the best results and sometimes even ended up being slower than walking 14~16.
It seems that in the boss battle, the cannon only does 80 damage at most, which is pretty disappointing.
Don't forget the faster way of using H and Vulcan. Good luck.
Could you explain how this works again and the input? Thanks.
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mission 5
Unlike mission 4, mission 5 was very nice to me and I saved 259 frames. The main thing that helped save time was picking up extra grenades in the second part. Total of 787 frames saved going into mission 6.
As for mission 6, I'm expecting to lose time here because I'm not going to die to use Tarma. I would also have to pick up the firebombs too because R and grenades alone aren't going to be enough to get through the first part fast enough before I get G.
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mission 4
It's been a while, but I finally finished mission 4. This mission was frustrating because there would be places where I would save frames only to lose them from lag. In the end, I just had to try my best to reduce lag and minimize the frame losses. Currently saved 528 frames in total going into mission 5.
There was a new strategy I tried against the boss, which seemed to be faster in-game time wise, but ended up being slower by 28 frames (which I believe is because of extra lag).
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9 frames improved
So it turned out that the shell trick in 1-4 actually saved 6 frames and I was able to somehow save 3 frames after the underground area, bringing the total improvement to 9 frames.
I realized that it was pointless to say that I won't be working on this directly anymore, since motivation comes and goes. I spent the past few days slowly working on attempting 1-2 (secret).
Here's two versions:
(1) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1636957799/1-2%20%281F%20slower%2C%20good%20manipulation%29.dsm
(2) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/763922221/1-2%20%281F%20faster%2C%20bad%20manipulation%29.dsm
(Sorry about the beginnings; I couldn't seem to get a shell to come out 100% of the time, so I had to manipulate it manually in the movies themselves.)
I was able to save 5 frames - 1 at the blue shell grab, 2 from adjusting pixels at the first Star Coin to bounce off of the wall earlier, 1 from adjusting pixels to enter the pipe transition a frame earlier, and most notably, 1 at the first seesaw... While working on saving the frame at the seesaw, I discovered a few things:
- It looks like the highest speed you can be at to do the shell speed gaining trick is anywhere below 2816, the speed you normally travel at while in the shell. The most optimal way I've found to get into that "mode" from full speed is to jump toward an edge, press back a frame before landing, continue holding back 3 frames while grounded, let go of left/right the next frame, hold forward+down the next frame, then finally hold back (+X/Y). (You'll have to line up how close to the edge you land with your jump for this to work.)
Wow, nice! Didn't think that pixel optimizations could save time there! The first seesaw part looks cool, too bad it only saves a frame. Those are some nice discoveries about the shell speed gaining trick.
- Staying on the seesaw advances RNG for some reason.
- When I broke the brick after the seesaw (in (2)), it seemed to give me a completely different set of RNG values.
The third one is a very odd problem, as I then can't line up the manipulation to be the same anymore... I provided another file (1) that loses this frame, but keeps the manipulation the same.
Uh-oh. That might mean the manipulation might have to be re-synced for the whole world... I actually have a similar problem in 1-4. I was able to squeeze one more double jump in after the third starcoin, but I couldn't find a place to throw in another. This means the second double jump would have to be included in the underground area, but the only way I could do that is to land on the ground with no input for a frame and lose a few pixels, but that loss is big enough to lose a frame! The dsm I uploaded doesn't lose the frame for now, but to keep manipulation the same, I have to lose a frame...
Also, for future reference, may I use any of your inputs for tests/attempts like this? I used yours whenever I couldn't find an improvement in an area, if that's okay.
Sure! Chances are, I'll probably end up hex-editing most of your inputs/improvements into the WIP, so if that helps with the testing, go for it.
I've been thinking of some last major improvements that might remain for World 1:
1-2 (secret): If it was possible to manipulate so that a new red box doesn't appear, some frames could be saved when moving in the world map by spawning a red-box in 1-1 to move to 1-2 after doing 1-tower (secret).
1-2 (normal): More frames could probably be saved in the world map if luck could be manipulated so that a red-box doesn't spawn right after completing the level.
1-4: It might be faster to get a mini-mushroom from a red-box than from normally where I get it. I tried to manipulate in 1-tower (normal) for the red-box to have a mini-mushroom instead, but was unable to do it (from bad RNG?).
Edit: I've been thinking of a new power-up plan that might be faster. After getting the blue-shell in reserve in 1-2 (normal) and taking damage, I would use the blue-shell reserve right away on a slope to use the shell-speed trick throughout the rest of the level. I would keep the blue-shell till 1-4, where I would manipulate the red-box to have another blue-shell so that I could use the trick again after becoming mini.
Does the RNG determine whether a new red-box spawns right after completing a level that had a red-box? It seems that sometimes a new one appears right after completing a level (1-2 (both exits)) and sometimes it appears after completing another level (1-4, 1-A).
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Wow. That was very entertaining. Although I want to know whether or not going inside the toad houses counts towards 100%.
Thanks! Toad Houses are not counted and should only be entered if necessary because going inside them costs at least about 10 seconds.
As I got to 1-4 while rewatching the WIP, I recalled that video of the fast shell trick WaddleDX uploaded (though found by alpha) a while ago and wondered if it could be used here. I played around with it and was able to pull off this rather silly-looking stunt:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1044013760/1-4%20Test.dsm
...which saved 5 frames. I tried my best to optimize this portion, but maybe you could do it better. There's also the idea of ground-pounding on the hill and then grabbing the shell (grabbing the shell then landing doesn't work), which is likely faster, but since you fall faster than the shell, I wasn't able to do it.
I also saw that video was wondering whether it could be used to save time in 1-4. The first time, I couldn't find a way to do it. I tried to ground-pound, but couldn't find a way. I didn't think of your way (I didn't know it could work like that too because I thought ground-pounding was necessary), but nice! 5 frames! It's great to know that the trick could be used to save time, even if a little.
After more fooling around, I was able to come up with a ground-pound method, but it was 28 frames slower unfortunately. The reason probably comes from the length of the ground-pound itself and the fact that it has to be done twice:
ground-pound method
I haven't looked into your method yet to see if it could be done faster, but now that the ground-pound method is slower, I'll look into it later. It would be nice if the trick could be used more in other levels...
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new improvement
So, it turned out that using the speed gaining trick off the pipe in the underground section in 1-4 was actually slower so I had to redo that area again... But thankfully there was a ledge right in front of the pipe so I was able to use the speed gaining trick off that instead, though I actually had to let go of left for a few frames and reach full speed a few frames later than the ideal time because I had have a very precise x-position in order to be able to jump, hit the block with the p-switch and get a corner-boost while still landing on the pipe, jump and hit the p-switch, and barely land on the left block in order to be able to jump. The result is that 9 frames were saved in the area, bringing the time World 1 is completed to 12:49.23 (the old time was actually 12:49.38, I looked at it wrong somehow). It is unfortunate that the speed gaining trick off the pipe wasn't faster, it looked really cool...
youtube encode
Here's a youtube encode I made that has all the improvements I made so far, including the one I mentioned above. It only contains World 1 (I want to get farther before encoding a 2nd part). Anyone is welcome to make encodes of my WIP's, for now, I ask that if they are uploaded to youtube, they be unlisted.
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Here's an update:
current progress
I've been able to save about 31 more frames off my old run for World 1.
Notable improvements are from:
1-4: After the first starcoin and becoming Shell Luigi again, I run on the slightly slanted slope to get 3110 speed, rather than 3087, which saved a frame. In the underground section, I found a solution to gaining speed faster after coming out of the pipe. Instead of trying to walljump, I instead jump to the top of the pipe and use the speed gaining trick to gain speed faster. This and a few route optimizations allowed
me to save 7 frames. (this allowed me to get an ingame-time of 340!!)
1-A: At the end, I used the speed gaining trick again to save 7 frames. That trick actually has a lot more uses than just gaining speed faster because it also allows you to TRAVEL ON THE GROUND at 48 speed while in shell mode!!! It is also faster than walljumping off the vertical pipe that you have to do with the other power-ups
The rest of the improvements came from optimizing 1-5 and 1-Castle (before I found the improvements in 1-4 and 1-A, I was 16 frames ahead). The time up to the frame Bowser is defeated (and the 4000 appears for score) is 12:48.09.
As for World 2:
2-2: 4 frames were saved from wall-jumping off the vertical pipe in the area with the third starcoin.
2-3 (normal): More than 50 frames were saved from optimizing and using new strategies (Also allowed an ingame time of 425)
Because I became Fire-Luigi earlier in 1-5, I had to re-sync the luck manipulation (usually it was adding a double-jump here and there or taking one out). So now I'm trying to manipulate the red-block to come down to 2-A so that I could get a mini-mushroom in reserve.
LFNMai has currently lost interest in TAS'ing, unfortunately. :(
Speaking of which, 0.9.9 was apparently released a bit ago. As with the other versions, the RNG is different, so other runs won't sync on it. I think it'd be okay if you stuck with 0.9.8, though, given how much progress you've already made and how much trouble it'd be to resync it.
Yeah, I was thinking about it, but I eventually decided against it because it would be a lot of work and 0.9.8 was the best version available when I started the run.
Also... I'm really, really sorry. I actually held off making another post here until I at least had some form of progress or update to show, but I just couldn't find any motivation to work on this anymore already... I don't have the same patience for optimization as I used to have during the making of the any% run. Extremely sorry for the false joining. :<
Again, though, I'll gladly continue to provide feedback or ideas as they come along. Please keep up the great work with what you already have, and apologies again.
No problem! You can just keep providing feedback and pointing out improvements if you wish.
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Does the tank spawn at the left at the same time? Well, in your run, you did have 5 bombs left over after the boss, but maybe with super-change, I could use a lot more bombs against the boss.
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So after re-doing 1-5, I managed to save 2 more frames. I tried to see if I could get a reserve flower in 1-Castle to save time in 2-2 and if you look at the dsm, I get really close to making it, but fall short. I don't think there's anything I overlooked, but it would be really nice if this strategy worked.
1-5 redone and 1-Castle test
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Taking the S is faster. I tried to save some grenades at the beginning when you fight the two helicopters, but I ended up losing more than 100 frames and I would only lose even more later in the level. The main problem is that the tank that you have to destroy after getting S has 1100 hp, more than twice the hp it has on normal (500), where it is faster to skip S and you have enough grenades to compensate. Oh well, I guess it can't be helped.
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Wow, that's a lot closer than I thought!! I think losing the shell early is the way to go. I think I can still hex edit some parts of 1-Castle, really only the middle part, from where I originally get the fire-flower to triple jumping to the pipe, has to be redone.
Those things aside, I've been talking with LFNMai (Firestar7891 on youtube), who is also interested in TAS'ing 100% and collaborating, though wants to use desmume 0.9.7 because it has less lag. He pointed out something interested about Bowser Jr. Apparently, his health increases from World 4 to World 7 when he becomes masked, so you don't have enough time to shoot enough fireballs before stomping on him for the kill. Interestingly, his health is reduced in World 8, which is why the any% has no trouble. I haven't been able to try it out for myself yet, but it would be nice know if it is possible to still beat Bowser Jr. with the fireball > stomp (and there was something that was overlooked) or if new strategies have to be created for those Tower levels.
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I just looked at 1-1 again and the walljump off the pipe looks awesome! I've been trying to see if I could save time with that trick in other places (namely 1-2 (2nd) (right before the flag) and 1-5(in the sky area with the third star coin)), but without much success. Maybe I'm not doing it right, though I think in 1-2, it might still be faster to walljump off the wall on the left and if it does save time in 1-5, it would also have to be redone because then I would become Fire Luigi earlier to take advantage of the walljump > fireball trick. Though that would mean that 1-Castle also has to be redone...
1-5: Maybe you could keep the shell for a little longer to do a few slope boosts on the mushroom edges (to stay at 3100 speed)
I tried to do this, but I can't seem to get it to work. Could I see a demonstration of it?
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mtvf1, in mission 4, how many frames did it take to get S? I'm wondering if it would be faster to go ahead without S and just use H, grenades, and I later on since you don't have to wait for the prisoner to walk and drop down.
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improved boss battle
Thanks mtvf1, I improved the boss battle by 67 frames. Total of 432 frames so far. At the beginning, I shot with the pistol once and F before Z can do a full 300 damage so that the head would appear earlier. As soon as I used the last Z to make the head appear, I started attacking the top half because I have to wait a little bit before I can do 400/500 damage with Z.
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Alright, I fixed up the ground pound and was able to save another 8 frames--please use this one instead:
Sweet, 364!!!
mindnomad wrote:
What exactly do you want to know about this? I'm sure just jumping on the first possible frame would allow for a double jump, unless you mean something else that is...
Oops! I meant specifically when ducking to cause any of the three jumps, as it doesn't work sometimes. Along with this, I'm not sure why ducking and quickly hitting a ceiling to cancel your duck allows you to go into your double/triple jump.
Yes, that would be good to know because World 1 Castle might be able to be done a few frames faster if it was possible to duck > double jump and then triple jump to the pipe, but the duck > double jump doesn't seem to work there.
No problems with using my 1-1 attempt! I don't mind at all if you use any of my inputs in general. I've actually lined up the manipulation to stay the same, so it should fit in just fine (with the exception that the score and coin count will be a bit different). I'd also be fine with checking up on the other levels you did, though I'm afraid I'd be too overbearing if I were to do so, haha...
No, absolutely not, by all means, go ahead and look through the levels. It's much better if you discover improvements early on so that they can be hex-edited in more easily than if you find them later.
If you guys are interested in TAS'ing this game again and want to collaborate, you're welcome to join. There's also a few people on youtube (I don't know if they have accounts here) who are also planning on TAS'ing the 100%, maybe we can get a group going. If not, you're more than welcome to keep pointing out improvements, the sooner, the better.
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new wip
I've been working on a few side projects lately (other than Metal Slug 3) and started this a few weeks ago. Emulator is Desmume 0.9.8 with Advanced Bus-Level Timing on. This run uses Eri and will not use death. So far, I've finished mission 3 and improved mtvf1's eri run by 365 frames. (I'll be mainly comparing to the Eri run since it is nearly 2 minutes faster than the published marco run).
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1-2 (Secret): Loved how you used the animation stalling trick on the teeter-totter! I assume that was to stay at a higher speed without having to go into the shell.
Well, it was to prevent going into the shell so that I could keep holding the koopa shell. I think going into the shell and triple jumping off the teeter-totter is still faster like in the any %, but since you need to bring a koopa shell to save more time and the only other way is to use the koopa jump trick used by Greenalink in his test videos (which unfortunately is slower), I think this might be the best solution. Credits to WaddleDx for the idea (I got the idea from his video).
1-T (Secret): Clever usage of that shell-speed gaining trick in the room with all the moving blocks! I have suspicions that getting above 466 may be possible (which goes for any% as well); I did a quick test with the inclusion of that trick and was something like 14 frames off.
That was a nice discovery you made, it saved around 10~20 frames in that room! Sadly, it wasn't enough to beat 466. You were faster than me though, the fastest I reached the flag, I was 23 frames off. It would just be nice if you could just get the blue shell here...
1-5: Maybe you could keep the shell for a little longer to do a few slope boosts on the mushroom edges (to stay at 3100 speed); just assuming from simply looking, so it may not even save frames...
Oh, I didn't know that, I might try seeing if it does.
As for 2-A, it seems that it's because you didn't actually perform your first jump and it's not allowing you to perform the triple jump because of that. I went back in your case and actually did the first jump, as well as testing if ducking and un-ducking at the ledge for the first jump also qualifies, and it worked. No worries there!
Oh, so you actually have to do a first jump. And I thought running off a ledge and double jumping would work. I wonder why I didn't think of actually trying that. Thanks though!
But as for the level not allowing you to do super corner boosts, I have no idea... Maybe it's because the Red ? Block boost repositioned you in a way that won't allow you to do them at all anymore. But you've done that in other levels as well, with super corner boosting working just fine, so I'm not sure...
Yeah, that is just weird, I suddenly can't super corner boost anymore. I think I might just have to move on, I only lose a frame or two from not boosting and I can't think of a better setup to go to World 4.
But as for the level not allowing you to do super corner boosts, I have no idea... Maybe it's because the Red ? Block boost repositioned you in a way that won't allow you to do them at all anymore. But you've done that in other levels as well, with super corner boosting working just fine, so I'm not sure...
Dang, 8 frames... That's quite an improvement though! Only a few frames and the level could be a 364!
I understand if it's too much work, though! It's definitely time-consuming to have to optimize every turn for a really long run like this.
I'm going to try to hex-edit the improvements in. The game is friendly with hex-editing and as long as luck manipulation is kept the same (number of double jumps/wall jumps), I don't think it should be a problem (If you don't mind me using your input from 1-1).
All in all, keep up the great progress! This looks really nice so far and I'll definitely try to follow your WIPs more closely. You've motivated me to do more stuff with this, so I'd be happy to help whenever need be!
Thanks! Appreciate the help.
I do have one question though: In the underground of 1-4, I can't seem to wall jump off the pipe with shell-Luigi like any other power-up (like Fire in 2-1). Could you confirm this if possible?
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100% WIP
Here's another 100% WIP I started on Desmume 0.9.8 with Advanced Bus Timing off, but had to stop again because I got stuck at 2-A. I can't seem to jump to the second springboard with the fireball > jump trick. If you see at the end of the WIP, I would be in perfect shape to go straight to World 2 Castle and do the last fireball trick to go to World 4. It's also interesting that after powering up to Fire Luigi, I can't seem to super corner boost in 2-A. Though that's not a huge issue, since I only lose a few frames, the bigger issue is the jump at the springs because I can't seem to jump far enough. If anyone can help me figure this out, I would greatly appreciate it.
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mission 4 done!
about 1566 frames saved so far.
finally got some more time to work on this. Mission 4 had me stuck for a while. Finally decided to have F only get 5 hits once and have the boss move to the right. Even so, I had to delay L for 3 frames (should be 2, but it's 3 because of lag) to get the boss to do what I wanted it to do. mtvf1, thanks to your L trick, I only needed 31 F. If you can upload the next few boss hp's, that would awesome.
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Hey guys, I know it's been a while since I posted and more than a year since I started this, but I just haven't had the time for the last few months to work on this. I have a some time this week so I tried to pick off from where I left off, but I'm having some trouble trying to manipulate the boss. I'm trying to make it go left and still get 6 hits with F, but I can't seem to find the solution. So now I'm posting this wip here to open the question to anyone who is interested. If anyone can find a good solution to this, it will be greatly appreciated.
wip
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Why you let boss go to left? Because of the less death-ray in screen and the less lag?
And what's meaning "3 frames" ? why not 2 or 4 frames? Because metalslug is 30 fps game in 60 fps system, every 2 frames have 1 frames which no effect.
Having it go to the left is better for getting 6 hits with F. It should technically be 2 frames, but there's a lot of lag frames during the boss fight which is why 2 frames becomes 3 frames.
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