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Link to video Got a possible starting route for the Twin Labyrinth. Without the Twin Statues it becomes a challenge to find a good route, but thankfully I can manage to circle around in order to reach both sides of the area. Though can't do the same from the other side. This might be changed when I do the final run. Edit: So here's where you end up at if you continue up in the second part of the Twin Labyrinth. Link to video Unless it'll be required for anything specific, this means you can skip getting the Fake Hand Scanner and Dragon Bone, reducing how much money you need by 350. Although unless you can find more areas to enter the Shrine or fight the giant Eyeball in Endless Corridor, you'll have to go back into the Twin Labyrinth in order to access the Shrine again.
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Oh man, a full TAS is going to be so crazy with all these wallcrawls. Keep it up Tseralith!
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Can you get into the Dimensional Corridor without the crystal skull? If so, I'd imagine doing it right after you get the Katana would be the best time to do it. It would also skip going into the Shrine altogether. Unless the knife rom combo saves enough time to get.
Unless it'll be required for anything specific, this means you can skip getting the Fake Hand Scanner and Dragon Bone, reducing how much money you need by 350. Although unless you can find more areas to enter the Shrine or fight the giant Eyeball in Endless Corridor, you'll have to go back into the Twin Labyrinth in order to access the Shrine again.
If you kill the Eyeball after being in the shrine, can you access the Shrine from the Endless Corridor without the Dragon Bone or would it still need to be bought? edit: Do you need the Dragon Bone for the Death Seal or do you only need to talk to the sage?
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So far I do not know of any path you can take to reach the Dimensional Corridor without getting the Crystal Skull, although I haven't investigated the possibility much yet. Though you need the Skull if you wish to use the normal route as it turns the ladder into the entrance when you get it. Also unfortunately you still can't enter the Shrine if you kill the Eyeball after already entering it. The Dragon Bone is really what's revealing the entrances to the Shrine. Speaking of which I recently watched a speedrun of someone who's intentionally using cheats to beat the game ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpS8sQRYw_k if anyone is interested), where he showed you can actually pick up items that are blocked if you can just reach them. With that realization I managed to do this... Link to video With all these skips I feel I have to figure out what's possible and not possible to skip. What I believe are the technical minimum requirements to reveal the final boss and beat the game are: -Defeat all eight Guardians to reveal the True Shrine of the Mother. -Acquire all Ankh Jewels and reveal all boss ankhs in order to defeat the Guardians. -Acquire the four Seals in order to summon the final boss. -Acquire the Keyblade in order to summon the final boss. -Acquire the Wedge and Magatama Jewel in order to advocate the Mantras in order to summon the final boss. What I don't know yet if it's technically required to win the game are: -Talk to all four Sages. -The Crystal Skull in order to reach the Dimensional Corridor. I'll still be testing various areas to see where else you can access, but if anyone else has any ideas or suggestions feel free to ask them. Edit: Not sure if the Dragon Bone is required for the Death Seal or not, or if it's possible to reach it some other way instead. I'll try and see if I can reach the Seal without the Bone.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
QuizmasterBos
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I've played this game before and have also seen plenty of videos of it. So I maybe be able to help out. I'm a big fan of TASing and am greatly looking forward to this TAS. (You may remember seeing me post on one of your earlier videos, name was LegoQuiz. (It's an old YouTube account name. Please call me Quiz, nice to meet you.)
Tseralith wrote:
So far I do not know of any path you can take to reach the Dimensional Corridor without getting the Crystal Skull, although I haven't investigated the possibility much yet. Though you need the Skull if you wish to use the normal route as it turns the ladder into the entrance when you get it. Also unfortunately you still can't enter the Shrine if you kill the Eyeball after already entering it. The Dragon Bone is really what's revealing the entrances to the Shrine.
Correct, the Dragon Bone allows Lemeza to enter the Shrine of the Mother, so you'll still need to get it, I bet.
Tseralith wrote:
Link to video
That is pretty amazing, you may not need it, as it only reveals the ladder in the Twin Labyrinth. You may be able to find a way in, but I am unsure if you'll be able to enter.
Tseralith wrote:
With all these skips I feel I have to figure out what's possible and not possible to skip. What I believe are the technical minimum requirements to reveal the final boss and beat the game are: -Defeat all eight Guardians to reveal the True Shrine of the Mother. -Acquire all Ankh Jewels and reveal all boss ankhs in order to defeat the Guardians. -Acquire the four Seals in order to summon the final boss. -Acquire the Keyblade in order to summon the final boss. -Acquire the Wedge and Magatama Jewel in order to advocate the Mantras in order to summon the final boss.
You'll need all 5 main weapons. The Mother has 5 forms, each one can be hurt by one of the main weapons only. The order is Keyblade, Knife, Axe, Katana and Whip. You'll also need to get the Container in the Chamber of Birth and that simultaneously means you also need to get the Angel Shield in the Dimensional Corridor. I'll explain in the next paragraph why.
Tseralith wrote:
What I don't know yet if it's technically required to win the game are: -Talk to all four Sages. -The Crystal Skull in order to reach the Dimensional Corridor.
You need to speak to the Sage in the Dimensional Corridor at least. He gives Lemeza the Death and Life mantras, which you need to use on the fairies in the Tower of Ruin. You need the container to collect the medicine and this is used during the final boss to defeat her. You can't possibly skip this. To get the Container, you need the Angel Shield. A special wall in the Chamber of Birth shoots out a laser that only the Angel Shield can stop. It breaks the wall and opens the chest behind it, which contains the Container. Anyway, the other three sages open three passageways into the Shrine of the Mother. One in the Twin Labyrinth, one in the Chamber of Exctinction and one in the Endless Corridor. You can very likely skip these.
Tseralith wrote:
Edit: Not sure if the Dragon Bone is required for the Death Seal or not, or if it's possible to reach it some other way instead. I'll try and see if I can reach the Seal without the Bone.
I don't believe you do. The Dragon Bone IS required to get the Death Seal in the remake, but I believe you can skip it here. Two walls should block your way in case the Dragon Bone is necessary and you don't have it. Hope this helps out!
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For the Dimensional Corridor, the entrance has a couple places you could glitch into the wall, either where the ladder should appears or further to the right. Could you get in by doing the same thing as entering the Twin Labyrinth from the Inferno Caverns? Though you'll need the Keyblade to kill one of the mini bosses. But you could always do half of it and then leave to the Endless Corridor and then warp back once you have the Keyblade, assuming you can get in. You can use the Silver Shield to get the Container, it's just the Angel Shield is a bit more in the way, currently. Plus the Angel Shield can block pretty much everything, even lightning. The Sage in the Dimensional Corridor is going to be required unless a way to get past Mother's first form is found without the medicine. I remember the other sages opening different paths. The one in the Spring in the Sky makes a block disappear on the ladder by Nu Wa. The Sage in the Temple of Moonlight opens the Death Seal room (which you may also need the Dragon Bone for). The sage in the Tower of the Goddess makes the room with Mother's Ankh accessible (normally there's a wall preventing access). I could be wrong, but I remember testing and this is what I came up with. The only thing I'm not personally sure about is what the Mantras actually do.
Joined: 6/24/2013
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Hey everyone, I'm the guy that made that silly cheat run of the game. (Un-planned route, by the way.)
Tseralith wrote:
What I don't know yet if it's technically required to win the game are: -Talk to all four Sages. -The Crystal Skull in order to reach the Dimensional Corridor.
Yeah, the game requires talking to all 4 sages for Mother's Ankh to appear. If you do not beat all 8 bosses, the game won't let you get to True Shrine of Mother. I've also tried going straight to Tiamat and skipped the other bosses, but it doesn't work. EDIT: whoops, forgot to answer this one below. You absolutely need the crystal skull to get in the Dimensional Corridor. Even if you clip through the wall and go up through the ceiling, you will not reach the corridor if the ladder isn't there. (or maybe you just need to be in the climbing state?) Two things I should mention, by the way: - While you need the keyblade to summon mother, you also need the knife, axe, and katana to defeat the rest of her forms. - You must defeat Shu, the blood-thirsty sacrifice beast in Confusion Gate, in order to open the Flywheel chest. (Those might not be valuable pieces of info for you, because the route might require those goals to be done anyways, but I figure I should mention it just in case.)
Tseralith wrote:
Edit: Not sure if the Dragon Bone is required for the Death Seal or not, or if it's possible to reach it some other way instead. I'll try and see if I can reach the Seal without the Bone.
I'd imagine it would be possible if you manipulated enemy movements to clip into that wall right of where the ladder should be. Even if you made it in, you would still need bombs if you wanted to get in there. (Though I'm not too informed of your route, my brother showed me a couple WIPs as the mockup run had been progressing.) If you want to get more hands-on with experimenting, here's the .ct I made for La-Mulana 8-bit. I tested it in Cheat Engine 6.2 using both Windows 7 and 8: http://potatochan.com/files/lamulana.CT (If it views as a text document, save the page as a .CT file, which should be opened with CE6.2) Mapped hotkeys: E: Lock Y Position (Was too lazy to look for gravity) R: Reset/Initialize all values I/J/K/L: Warp UDLR by a set number (can be configured) W: Toggles Invincibility value freezing Q: Hold to always have negative gravity (or something like that, I forgot how I found this value/set it) Footnotes: Those cheats will only work on a clean file directly after running the game. If you load a file or die+start again, not all of the cheats will work properly. Also, values must be re-frozen, because Cheat Engine doesn't like saving freezing values (or maybe I'm just doing something wrong). Hope this helps you guys! Good luck with the strat discoveries, and I look forward to watching the future speedruns on this game!
QuizmasterBos
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solairflaire wrote:
For the Dimensional Corridor, the entrance has a couple places you could glitch into the wall, either where the ladder should appears or further to the right. Could you get in by doing the same thing as entering the Twin Labyrinth from the Inferno Caverns? Though you'll need the Keyblade to kill one of the mini bosses. But you could always do half of it and then leave to the Endless Corridor and then warp back once you have the Keyblade, assuming you can get in.
Did you actually need a specific weapon for one of the minibosses there? I thought you could kill them with any weapon? Or does this pertain to what's faster?
solairflaire wrote:
You can use the Silver Shield to get the Container, it's just the Angel Shield is a bit more in the way, currently. Plus the Angel Shield can block pretty much everything, even lightning.
In the remake you actually NEED the Angel Shield. I thought you did so too in the original. Well, the shield IS in the way. I believe to make it appear you need to defeat all the enemies in the room with it after you've defeated an odd number of bosses, an even number and a multitude of three. If you (from entering, or at least in the remake) go up twice, left, up again and to the right you encounter exactly three bosses. After going up twice you fight the first boss, who you just defeat (Axe is the best weapon for it I think). Then you go left and defeat the next boss. Go up (you get to the room with the Angel Shield) and kill all enemies. The middle flame should start burning. Go to the right and kill the boss there, then move back and kill all enemies again. The first flame should start burning. Leave the room, come back and kill all enemies again and you can get the Angel Shield. At least, this is how I remember it should happen.
solairflaire wrote:
The Sage in the Dimensional Corridor is going to be required unless a way to get past Mother's first form is found without the medicine.
I highly doubt this will happen. After defeating the first form, the medicine is automatically used. If it's wrong, the door will open again and you need to go back and fetch the correct one. I don't even know if it IS possible to fight Mother without any medicine.
solairflaire wrote:
I remember the other sages opening different paths. The one in the Spring in the Sky makes a block disappear on the ladder by Nu Wa. The Sage in the Temple of Moonlight opens the Death Seal room (which you may also need the Dragon Bone for). The sage in the Tower of the Goddess makes the room with Mother's Ankh accessible (normally there's a wall preventing access). I could be wrong, but I remember testing and this is what I came up with.
You're right, I just checked via the Wiki. (But what opens the way from Chamber of Extinction to Shrine of the Mother then?) The one in the Spring in the Sky makes the ladder to Nu Wa appear. The one in the Temple of Moonlight opens the path to the Death Seal in the Endless Corridor. However, the one in the Tower of the Goddess makes two things accessible. One, the room that leads to the Flail. Two, the room to the Mother. However, you can't do anything there yet.
solairflaire wrote:
The only thing I'm not personally sure about is what the Mantras actually do.
I know this one. The Mantras change the Shrine of the Mother to the True Shrine of the Mother. This makes the Grail unusable and the only way inside is by going past the Endless Corridor. Hopefully the Wall glitch can be used to save a lot of time there.
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Heya Quiz! We'll see if I'll be needing the Dragon Bone in the end anyway. We won't know for sure until I try to find another path. And the same with the Crystal Skull; although I just showed a video of me acquiring it, I haven't actually picked it up in my current playthrough yet so I should still be able to try and find an alternate entrance. I must get all five weapons as well then, and probably the Container and Medicine as well. So far the game isn't keeping complete track of what you've acquired or not, so we'll see if it's required in the end. If I have to get it in the end anyway we'll see which Shield is the best choice. So far by testing I only reach another part of the Twin Labyrinth if I go up at where the entrance to Dimensional Corridor is without the Crystal Skull. I'll definitely see if I might be able to somehow reach it anyway without it, though at least I have a quick strat to acquire it in case it's unskippable in the end. I can also "easily" access the as well Keyblade, so it shouldn't be any issue. Heya Potentialing! Didn't expect to see you here as well. :) So the Sages actually are required to reveal the final boss, and not just to reach certain areas or get two mantras... that's a shame. I can at least reach the final boss room without speaking to the Sage in Tower of the Goddess, but probably must speak to them anyway to win the game then. We'll see about the Crystal Skull. Who knows? Maybe I might actually find a place where you can access Dimensional Corridor without it. Shame you can't skip Shu, but at least I'll have the Ring by the time I'm fighting him so I'll at least be able to defeat him quicker. Unless I can manage to glitch myself into his room in order to use my axe on him instead. Manipulating enemies in a resonable time will be a pain in this game, but it is possible. Also thanks for showing your cheat program. We'll see if I might be able to figure something out with it. I appreciate your input.
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Any updates on routing/shortcut discovery?
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I must admit I've been lazy the last few weeks, but I have explored the game some with the help of Potentializing's Cheat Engine tablet. Although I haven't finshed exploring the possibilities I have discovered a few things which is required to win the game. Fake Hand Scanner/Dragon Bone: Unfortunately you really have to get these in order to reach the True Shrine of the Mother. Granted you can reach the normal Shrine of the Mother without them, but in order to actually reach the True Shrine you have to climb up/down into the area. Just zipping through the walls won't trigger the change. As a matter of fact zipping through the walls after the True Shrine has been triggered actually takes you to the normal Shrine of the Mother instead. Though of course you can wait with getting them until it's a good time for it. Crystal Skull: So far I haven't found a way to access the Dimensional Corridor without it so you must get it. Interestingly you must also remove the fog in Twin Labyrinth, or else the entrance won't appear. Eye of Doom, or whatever it's actually called: Although it's not necesary to kill it to finish the game, you have to kill it in order to reach the credits. During the escape cutscene you first escape into the Endless Corridor, but if there's no ladder there you'll get stuck, unable to reach the ending credits. So unless you're satisfied with just beating the game without reaching the credits, you have to kill it. Magatama Jewel/Wedge: I haven't investigated enough to see if they're really required, but you must have the Mulana Talisman in order to acquire them. Granted there might still be a way to access them without the Talisman, but they both got the same protective shield the Crystal Skull have so I'll have to figure it out somehow. Mantras/Sages: Same as the previous as I haven't investigated it enough yet. They're not supposed to be skipped, but I will see if it might be possible anyway. Pepper/Treasure/Anchor: They are not needed at all to finish the game, though any water/lava part will take longer to do without the Anchor. Guardians: You're supposed to kill them all but I haven't investigated in case the True Shrine of the Mother can be triggered while skipping some of them. Weapons: All main weapons are required since you need them for all of Mother's different forms. No sub-weapon is required (apart from a shield, but haven't investigated if it might be skipped as well), but they help you more than not getting them of course. An interesting fact is you must have the Feather in order to beat the game, otherwise you won't be able to reach one of Mother's forms. I haven't decided on any route changes yet, but as soon as I've confirmed whether any Guardians or Mantras and such can be skipped or not I'll be making a new route. I'll post any new discovery I make as well.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
QuizmasterBos
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Tseralith wrote:
I must admit I've been lazy the last few weeks, but I have explored the game some with the help of Potentializing's Cheat Engine tablet. Although I haven't finshed exploring the possibilities I have discovered a few things which is required to win the game. Fake Hand Scanner/Dragon Bone: Unfortunately you really have to get these in order to reach the True Shrine of the Mother. Granted you can reach the normal Shrine of the Mother without them, but in order to actually reach the True Shrine you have to climb up/down into the area. Just zipping through the walls won't trigger the change. As a matter of fact zipping through the walls after the True Shrine has been triggered actually takes you to the normal Shrine of the Mother instead. Though of course you can wait with getting them until it's a good time for it.
So that means the True Shrine of the Mother is in a different location altogether? Maybe using the Wall Zip glitch elsewhere will make you reach the True Shrine without even entering the regular Shrine. That way you don't need to buy either the Fake Scanner or Dragon Bone.
Tseralith wrote:
Eye of Doom, or whatever it's actually called: Although it's not necesary to kill it to finish the game, you have to kill it in order to reach the credits. During the escape cutscene you first escape into the Endless Corridor, but if there's no ladder there you'll get stuck, unable to reach the ending credits. So unless you're satisfied with just beating the game without reaching the credits, you have to kill it.
Since you won't reach the end credits, you don't actually beat the game, so yes, that would mean killing the eye would be required.
Tseralith wrote:
Magatama Jewel/Wedge: I haven't investigated enough to see if they're really required, but you must have the Mulana Talisman in order to acquire them. Granted there might still be a way to access them without the Talisman, but they both got the same protective shield the Crystal Skull have so I'll have to figure it out somehow.
I believe the last Grail does not appear if you don't have the wedges, so they'd definitely be required. Same for the Magatama Jewel. The Mantras and sages (at least the one that gives you the LIFE and DEATH spells) are also required (Grail won't appear either if you didn't do this, please correct me if I am wrong).
Tseralith wrote:
Pepper/Treasure/Anchor: They are not needed at all to finish the game, though any water/lava part will take longer to do without the Anchor.
It depends on how much time the Anchor saves. This one will require a lot of testing. Make sure you compare diving speeds and how much time is spent going down into the water. With the Wall Zip being usable at more areas I suspect it is quicker to skip it, but it's just speculation.
Tseralith wrote:
An interesting fact is you must have the Feather in order to beat the game, otherwise you won't be able to reach one of Mother's forms. I haven't decided on any route changes yet, but as soon as I've confirmed whether any Guardians or Mantras and such can be skipped or not I'll be making a new route. I'll post any new discovery I make as well.
Good luck!
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I've been doing some experimenting myself with the wall clips. However, the tests I've been doing have been in real time, since I'm an RTA player. I also don't know how to TAS things. Pretty much most of the stuff I've tried has been to find easier ways to do them, since they're so precise. I did try a couple places that I haven't seen before though. In the Endless Corridor, if you go to where you would enter the Shrine of the Mother, you can clip into the top right part and go up. You can even push yourself right and go all the way up to the part with the Twin Statue, saving 2 grenades. There's a platform with a ladder next to it. Stand on the bottom one and do it from there. The back swing from the whip will hit the part that shoots lightning at you. I also got one in the Inferno Caverns in the path to the Chain Whip. The first room there has a bunch of skeletons that throw bones. I was able to clip into the right wall and go up. I was hoping it would take me to the part past where the hidden path is on the Surface. It didn't. It took me to where the exit to the Temple of the Sun is. This got me thinking on how the maps were designed. I'll go into that in a bit. I tried for about an hour trying to get one in the Graveyard of Giants unsuccessfully. At the entrance to the Tower of Ruin on the top right is a section that looks angled. It's not. It's actually several "steps". The fuzzball enemy on the top right actually starts off going towards it. If this one takes you where I think it does, this would give access to Bombs and upper Chamber of Birth without needing to go through the Tower of the Goddess. I don't even know if this one is possible. I was taking a hit from the fuzzball and then trying to damage boost into the wall right as my invulnerability ended. So, about how I think the maps are set up. I think they are all just 4x5 grids. 4 across by 5 down. Normally, they wrap from top to bottom and left to right, or vice versa. The exception is if you go in the direction of an Area transition. Then you go to the new area instead of wrapping. The Twin Labyrinth is two maps then, one for the Front and one for the Back. All of the maps do fit into a 4x5 grid and preserve movement from screen to screen properly. The only map that this doesn't work on is the Surface, which I suspect is two maps with some extra space for things like the bosses or something. This would be easier to check with Cheat Engine. If they are set up this way, it would be helpful to have a map that shows what is actually where, not what the designers want you to think it looks like.
QuizmasterBos
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solairflaire wrote:
I've been doing some experimenting myself with the wall clips. However, the tests I've been doing have been in real time, since I'm an RTA player. I also don't know how to TAS things. Pretty much most of the stuff I've tried has been to find easier ways to do them, since they're so precise. I did try a couple places that I haven't seen before though. In the Endless Corridor, if you go to where you would enter the Shrine of the Mother, you can clip into the top right part and go up. You can even push yourself right and go all the way up to the part with the Twin Statue, saving 2 grenades. There's a platform with a ladder next to it. Stand on the bottom one and do it from there. The back swing from the whip will hit the part that shoots lightning at you. I also got one in the Inferno Caverns in the path to the Chain Whip. The first room there has a bunch of skeletons that throw bones. I was able to clip into the right wall and go up. I was hoping it would take me to the part past where the hidden path is on the Surface. It didn't. It took me to where the exit to the Temple of the Sun is. This got me thinking on how the maps were designed. I'll go into that in a bit. I tried for about an hour trying to get one in the Graveyard of Giants unsuccessfully. At the entrance to the Tower of Ruin on the top right is a section that looks angled. It's not. It's actually several "steps". The fuzzball enemy on the top right actually starts off going towards it. If this one takes you where I think it does, this would give access to Bombs and upper Chamber of Birth without needing to go through the Tower of the Goddess. I don't even know if this one is possible. I was taking a hit from the fuzzball and then trying to damage boost into the wall right as my invulnerability ended. So, about how I think the maps are set up. I think they are all just 4x5 grids. 4 across by 5 down. Normally, they wrap from top to bottom and left to right, or vice versa. The exception is if you go in the direction of an Area transition. Then you go to the new area instead of wrapping. The Twin Labyrinth is two maps then, one for the Front and one for the Back. All of the maps do fit into a 4x5 grid and preserve movement from screen to screen properly. The only map that this doesn't work on is the Surface, which I suspect is two maps with some extra space for things like the bosses or something. This would be easier to check with Cheat Engine. If they are set up this way, it would be helpful to have a map that shows what is actually where, not what the designers want you to think it looks like.
Interesting, I agree with you that we need a map of the whole thing. I think we can use Microsoft Excel for that pretty well, since it has grids. Might it be possible for you to give me info on the locations, so that I can put them in a spreadsheet? I can eventually turn that into an image and upload it, allowing people to download it (specifically Tseralith). I am unable to check for the maps myself sadly. The game doesn't want to work properly on my computer and I don't know how the glitch works. EDIT: I am trying to piece some of it together already and it proves much more difficult than imagined. There's absolutely no logical sense this map makes. In many cases the spots would overlap, preventing a 100% map from being made. The end result will most definitely be all over the place, so I need some more concrete information before I can continue mapping.
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Quick update! Sages: After some extra testing with various possibilities I can now confirm you can skip at least two of the Sages. The only ones I haven't found a way to skip yet is Giltorriyo in Spring in the Sky in order to activate the Mantras, and Fobous in Dimensional Corridor, in order to acquire the BIRTH and DEATH spells for the Medicine. You don't need to talk either to Alsedarna or Samaranta to fight the final boss. You'd normally need to speak to them as well in order to progress, but you can glitch through the walls and reach the areas they would've opened up anyway. Dragon Bone: Also I actually found out a way to access the True Shrine of the Mother without the Dragon Bone. If you try to normally glitch through the ceiling you'll just reach the normal Shrine, but if you glitch up in between the two symbols where the ladder up should be you'll reach the True Shrine instead. Of course you have to defeat all eigh Guardians before this happens. Although you can reach the True Shrine you're stuck in either the Death Seal or Map room, which means you have to glitch through the wall again in order to continue. Only the Death Seal room is accessible with this way though. Magatama Jewel/Wedge: The Medicine is still required in order to finish the game, so the Magatama and Wedge is still required. Thankfully I've found a way to acquire the Wedge despite it also having the same damage shield that's around the Crystal Skull. If you just jump where the chest is and fall down right as you defeat Nu Wa, you'll be able to pick up the Wedge right before the damage shield pushes you away. Just standing still won't work as you get pushed away before it becomes available. I still haven't found a way to acquire the Magatama Jewel yet unfortunately. About the maps you're talking about... I've though of doing something like that myself, but never started with it yet. I might just do it since having a complete map of where every room leads to will help with routing quite a lot.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
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Posts: 183
Location: Sweden
Heyho! I've finally finished the map of all areas (except Hell Temple, Maze of Galious, and Legendary Tree), so now you can see where each area will lead to if you glitch through the ceiling and the floor. I haven't actually found a way to glitch through the floor normally, but I decided to include them so you can see how each area is structured. The way I've made these is I've placed them in rows with rooms above, below and at the side (for the few rooms you can actually glitch through the side), colouring the rooms you can reach normally green, the ones you have to glitch through to reach red and the rows themselves white. As solairflaire theorized, the rooms do indeed normally wrap from top to bottom. Many areas can be reached in a "logical" order both through the ceiling and the floor, though certain areas like Chamber of Birth doesn't like to follow this logical order. Well... some kind of logical order so to speak. Link here for those who's curious or wants a copy of their own: http://www.mediafire.com/download/r8eyqqnob1y9eie/La-Mulana%2C_Wall_glitch_maps.rar Now I can begin making some serious route plans. :)
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
QuizmasterBos
He/Him
Joined: 6/23/2013
Posts: 136
Tseralith wrote:
Heyho! I've finally finished the map of all areas (except Hell Temple, Maze of Galious, and Legendary Tree), so now you can see where each area will lead to if you glitch through the ceiling and the floor. I haven't actually found a way to glitch through the floor normally, but I decided to include them so you can see how each area is structured. The way I've made these is I've placed them in rows with rooms above, below and at the side (for the few rooms you can actually glitch through the side), colouring the rooms you can reach normally green, the ones you have to glitch through to reach red and the rows themselves white. As solairflaire theorized, the rooms do indeed normally wrap from top to bottom. Many areas can be reached in a "logical" order both through the ceiling and the floor, though certain areas like Chamber of Birth doesn't like to follow this logical order. Well... some kind of logical order so to speak. Link here for those who's curious or wants a copy of their own: http://www.mediafire.com/download/r8eyqqnob1y9eie/La-Mulana%2C_Wall_glitch_maps.rar Now I can begin making some serious route plans. :)
Well, I took a lot at these maps you made and they are looking pretty good, but I honestly don't really understand it. I notice that on several maps (surface for example) you have the same areas listed, with differently colored lines around it. Like N3 and O3 are the same image as N6 and O6. Why is that? It's not like I have to really understand it anyway, as long as you and future TASers get it, it's good enough of course. Other than that, I am really looking forward to seeing more of this game TASed. You're doing a fine job, Tseralith.
Active player (456)
Joined: 11/12/2010
Posts: 183
Location: Sweden
Thanks! The reason why i included more than once is just to show those areas can be accessible through normal means; The white rows are the ones you should go by, and all green/red adjacent squares are the ones accessible from that area. Also yeah, I can understand it looks a bit messy, but it was the best idea I thought of. Mayhap if I included where each of these rows began would make it more readable? Though I can understand it myslef, so it's good enough for me at least.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Former player
Joined: 3/31/2005
Posts: 192
Location: Argentina
Has anyone tried to TAS the 2012 remake yet? EDIT: La-Mulana 2012 - any% in 1:47'50'' (speedrun, not a TAS): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1gqwOqDOzk Very interesting route and strats.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
A bit off topic, but the La-Mulana 2 kickstarter just started: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playism/la-mulana-2 Same devs, brand new temple. Spread the word and show some support if you enjoyed the game :)
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Active player (456)
Joined: 11/12/2010
Posts: 183
Location: Sweden
So I've been thinking of looking into this game again now that I finished Hyper Princess Pitch, but before I begin I can mention I did try to run the La-Mulana Remake on Hourglass, using version 1.3.3.1 from GOG.com. With "Multithreading and Wait Sync" set to 'Wrap,' I managed to start the game and navigate the menus. I even managed to start the Time Attack and run it... but that's as far as I got before the issues appeared. First off, the frame rate isn't consistent as it's a bit slower than what it should be and unfortunately I can't start a new normal game either as the game crashes the moment the map cutscene ends. Savestates are also unstable as they might work the first few times, but freezes up quickly afterwards. Frame advance works better, but even this freezes after using it for a while, except it always seem to count several empty frames for each frame that passes. I haven't gotten it to sync either as I think Hourglass counts a bunch of extra frames before the game has started, which it doesn't when I try to playback my file. So for now there seems to be more than one issue that needs to be resolved before La-Mulana Remake can be reliably run on Hourglass. That said, I've also been looking into a few memory addresses for the La-Mulana original and actually found the RNG as well as the x and y positions of Lemeza. RNG - Type float, 007A62D8 X position - Type 4 Bytes, 007A95B8 Y position - Type 4 Bytes, 007A95BC I'm fairly sure that's the RNG since it changes every time I expect it to change, and freezing the value results in the same drops/actions from the enemies. The only problem I have with this right now is figuring out how to make use of the values it gives me, how to find out which values will help me. What I do know thanks to this address is that every enemy changes the RNG differently. The birds change it as often as I expected them to do, with every new action they make. Bats change it both just as they move away from their resting spot and after they've travelled a distance. The ant lions change it after you've been in their room every ~9.5 seconds. Any room with a ghost seem to change it every 20 or so frame, no matter if they're visible or not (not counting other enemies in the room), while the cats that are balancing on balls change it every frame. Interestingly certain screen transitions changes it four times as well, and most but not every time you kill an enemy. These are just some examples as every enemy seem to change it in their own way, so I need to figure out how to make use of it. Does anyone happen to know a way how to do this? If I should try to disassemble or reverse engineer it or something? Or if there's an even more efficient way of doing it? Any guidance on this or suggestions for what other addresses I should search for would be appreciated.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
UltraJMan has some interesting news to (classic) La-Mulana runners: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/lamulana_758.html
Number 1: We can't actually skip the Twin Statue, it's still required for getting into the Dimensional Corridor, even with the skull and talisman, the ladder will NOT lead to the corridor unless the center labyrinth puzzle has been solved Number 2: HOWEVER, the Dragon Skull is 100% skippable in real time. It's tricky and even in single segment might require a save-load just to have health to viably do it and not get decimated. The method to accomplish this can be seen in the video below.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Active player (456)
Joined: 11/12/2010
Posts: 183
Location: Sweden
Nice to hear they've managed to find a way to skip the Dragon Skull in real time. The Twin Statues however actually can be skipped. The game only considers if you've cleared the mist in order to reveal the entrance to the Dimensional Corridor, and ignores whether you have the Statues or not. This can be achieved by reaching the Grail point by glitching up along the wall in the Katana room (with the help of the uncooperative skeletons, or any other means if it can be discovered) and along the wall in the room above. You then jump up to the top and go right through the wall and thus reach the Grail point. Then you just go right to place the first weight, warp back to the Grail point and then go left to place the second weight. Despite taking this route, the game still keeps the first weight in memory since you're still in the Twin Labyrinth, though you must be able to activate the elevator at the Grail point first or else you'll be stuck in there. This room can be reached by glitching up the wall in Peryton's (left bird) room after you defeat him. The green witch in there is quite cooperative since she always shoot fireballs straight at you, though you'd have to time it right to get into the right spot since the fireballs aren't the fastest projectiles. Granted, I don't know whether this would save time compared to getting the Twin Statues and finishing the puzzle normally, but at least it's possible. Currently I'm searching for memory addresses which should help me with the run. The HP of various bosses/mini-bosses, my current vitality and how long my invulnerability has lasted (which seems to randomize between 36-66 frames) and some other things I'm checking to see if they might be of use. I'll post what I've found in my next post after I've looked some more.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Active player (456)
Joined: 11/12/2010
Posts: 183
Location: Sweden
God damn it... As I'm gathering loads of HP addresses and fighting Tiamat in Dimensional Corridor, I also investigated whether I could acquire the Magatama Jewel of not again. My first idea was to use the Lamp of Time in hope it could stop the damage shield from spawning, but to no success. I then thought I could retry my claim that you can't use the corner glitch on bottom right corners... somehow it actually DOES work! And with this I managed to acquire the Magatama Jewel without the Mulana Talisman! Now I have methods to skip the Talisman altogether, which will save loads of time. Why I didn't discover this earlier is that you require even MORE precision for it to succeed compared to other corners. While you could have a few frames and few pixels to glitch bottom left corners, you basically only have one frame and one pixel for this to succeed. I think you must have the Grapple Claw for this to be possible, since you really need to be as close to the bottom as possible to reach the required pixel. Link to video I'll dump my memory addresses when I've tidied them up a bit for anyone who might be interested in them.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential. Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
THE GAME CHANGER
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu