This is my improvement to my viral yet controversial run in which I attempted to get the Minimum Presses in Super Mario Bros. This is the 8th attempt at this feat, this time completing the game in 05:48.04 and 142 presses, a 3 press improvement.
Attempts to complete the game with the least amount of button presses possible
Avoids wasting time
Aims to maximize score / kills without jeopardizing the above goals
Takes damage to save presses
Heavy luck manipulation
The Run
See this section of my previous submission for details on the majority of the run that went unchanged.
Changes
1-1: 13 presses (-1).
andrewg reminded me that I could have Mario stop in his tracks by holding down. As such, it became apparent that you can wait for the Goombas to move out of the way if you continue to hold down after going down the pipe. This saves one press.
8-2: 16 presses (-1).
Perfect enemy manipulation allows me to use one jump instead of two during the section before the final stairs. This requires two Bullet Bills. Room for error? There is none: after moving past the pipe, the jump must start and end at an exact frame or the trick will not work. I attempt to move past the pipe at the earliest time that allows me to both land on the second Bill and propel myself off of the final Koopa. This the one press I previously needed to jump past the second to last set of stairs.
8-3: 13 presses (0).
Because the enemies move based on a global timer, I had to do a lot of work in TASEdit to fix this stage. During this process, I realized that it's possible to make the second grounded Hammer Bros. deactivate if I pass it at the wrong time. This makes it impossible to manipulate the final grounded Hammer Bro, so this was avoided.
8-4: 26 presses (-1).
andrewg pointed out that I could hold A after exiting the pipe in the water section and avoid pressing A again to swim. In order to pull this off, I had to hold down earlier on to slow down enough to land in the pipe with a full jump. This saves one press.
Lua Script
See this section of my previous submission for details on the Lua script used to display the input in the encode.
Special Thanks
Thanks to andrewg for his improvements in 1-1 and 8-4. Again, thanks to FractalFusion for creating this amazing Lua script. I also would like to thank him, along with MUGG, for creating some of the previous MP TASes of this game. Finally, thanks to LexSfX for helping out with encoding.
DarkKobold: Agreed with adelikat, Taking over judging.
DarkKobold: Sadly, there was cheating involved with this submission. Thus, 3 yes votes should be removed from the voting.
DarkKobold: In general, these runs would be rejected on feedback alone. However, I believe that a decision is required on the minimum presses category in general. To not belabor this any longer, these types of runs just don't fit with the publications on the site. A TAS should be able to stand on its own merits. This category requires a script to evaluate the number of presses, a DDR-style output to show the buttons, and etc.
That said, there are plenty of forums out there that have their own side competitions outside the publication of the site. BrandonE has set up a page to track these minimum press runs. I am all for that. However, I don't believe that this category merits a publication on the standard site.
Also, while a technical challenge, I don't believe it produces interesting movies. It has been compared to "No B" run of SMB. However, it is easy for the audience to identify with the concept of not hitting B. It is fundamental to the gameplay. No one playing SMB counts the number of times they press a button while playing the game, or the number of jumps they make, and etc. These super technical categories don't really fit with the aims of the site.
This reminded me of my old (not so) TAS Sonic 2 "Perfect Bonus" to have an objective outsider. Now I see that even improved to 142 presses, in addition to that setting extra goals is not a thing so simple, I would say that my vote is YES. I respect this movie as some who respected mine to also vote YES. It's a shame that has been rejected, but I support this for that very reason. Good luck and that be accepted.
I"m really at a loss here. While I did love the April Fool's day run of this, I really don't consider it a serious category we should host. However it's pretty darn impressive from a technical standpoint.
Yes vote again. I've been a fan of minimal press runs for a while, starting from the "minimun 'A' button challenge" super mario 64 has. It's an interesting concept in my view.
I really like the idea, as I've stated previously, but I don't know if I'd want to see it up on tasvideos or not.
Regardless, I enjoyed it and I am not voting.
In some ways, I don't get why the walkathon was even accepted as a category. It's the same exact situation. The goal is just very arbitrary, but obviously results in something interesting.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
I really like the idea, as I've stated previously, but I don't know if I'd want to see it up on tasvideos or not.
Regardless, I enjoyed it and I am not voting.
In some ways, I don't get why the walkathon was even accepted as a category. It's the same exact situation. The goal is just very arbitrary, but obviously results in something interesting.
This is kind of my thought on it, but I did vote yes. I feel that the walkathon was much less entertaining and much more arbitrary. Specifically it was more arbitrary in the sense that it can't be applied to all games.
Voting yes.
I think it's weird that people find this more technically impressive but less interesting than HappyLee's normal warped run -- I think that run is *way* more technically impressive (this run is barely glitched at all!) but way more boring.
I mean, it's a great run, don't get me wrong. But the main entertainment comes from knowing that every last frame has been squeezed out of it. Here, you can actually follow along and see the very clever ways that frames are saved, and to me that is FAR more entertaining.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Joined: 5/11/2009
Posts: 17
Location: United States
I thought this was a very interesting concept for a movie, yes vote from me. Similar to what SmashManiac said earlier, I'm a big fan of the "least portals" challenges from the Portal games and like those, I think this idea adds a fun puzzle element to the game. However, I guess I can also see from other people's perspectives that this TAS might have been the type of TAS that is more fun to create than to watch. Even so, I think it is no less arbitrary a goal than the walkathon runs. On a side note, I would kind of like to see this idea used in other games, although unfortunately it doesn't look like it is too popular :(
I was initially opposed to the run, mainly because I saw the idea as another arbitrary goal, like the "minimum score" run. Knowing the number of presses for the standard run compared to this, though, really makes me reconsider that. I really don't know what to vote, because I find this run very technically impressive, but Mario sub-goal runs in general don't really excite me anymore (unless they somehow squeeze out a frame or two to the current speedrun). From a technical standpoint, I have to vote yes.
Also, I'd love to see this DDR-style input animation used for other games, especially the one-input/multi-game runs.
As an expert on SMB and also a long-term SMB TASer, I hardly think this run has any entertainment or technical standpoint at all. You can easily reach to a total 142 of presses with S/L only and no other tools. Therefore I object to the publication of this TAS.
Here's an extremely easy 42 frame improvement in 1-1, just a demo for showing that this run is much improvable.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/497728135/HappyLee_SMB_MPdemo1-1.fcm
It would be much easier if the time didn't turn to "xx3". I have to waste a lot of frames in the first stage and 1 frame in the basement in order to make it "xx2". Felt kind of stupid doing this, but I'll probably make a demo for 1-2 if it's asked.
Once again, "minimum presses" might be a strategy suitable for challenging, but it only leads to boring movies. Maybe in 8-2 it starts to seem a bit cool, but so does 8-3 in my "minimum score 500" run. And as Mars said, it just seems too easy to be produced, way easier than getting 500 socre in SMB in my opinion. So I don't think it appropriate to be published on this site.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Once again, "minimum presses" might be a strategy suitable for challenging, but it only leads to boring movies.
I found the movies ok...
...with the DDR-style effect. :P
Also, if there were more improvements in minimizing the input count, but in turn increase the time to finish the run, won't it be quite weird for a slower run to obsolete a faster run? Not that it hasn't happened before with Brain Age, but...
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2225
Location: Georgia, USA
As before, I think the LUA interface is cool, and it has nothing to do with whether it's a good stepchart ;-) If you want to have somebody see what's being pressed, and for how long, the DDR layout idea is fairly efficient at showing exactly that.
I find it really useful to have that kind of step information, for much the same reason that the Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow run has the published video with memory watch info: it gives the average viewer a chance to appreciate the little details of the run. For instance, I found myself looking at the total # of presses, wondering which stages would have the most presses.
One of the criticisms I've seen in this thread is that the run looks like a regular Mario run but sloppier. To me, the "sloppy" parts were actually surprising in a good way. When something seemed unoptimized to me, I'd try and guess why Brandon was doing it. Soon after, I'd see something like approaching enemies (or one of Brandon's subtitles), and it would clear up my confusion. If I didn't have that initial moment of confusion, I'd be less impressed afterward with the ingenuity of the run. Having the input display available also made it much easier for me to catch those little subtleties.
I feel that this category really lends itself well to the theme of this site: playing beyond human means. Very few human players could keep a running tally in their head of all the presses they've made, so this is totally a type of run that shows off what TASing can do. It's ingenious in its own way, and I'm heartily voting Yes again.
Even if the run can be improved a little time-wise, as HappyLee is showing, I'd say this is solid enough for publication right now. There can always be improvements submitted later.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
I feel that this category really lends itself well to the theme of this site: playing beyond human means. Very few human players could keep a running tally in their head of all the presses they've made, so this is totally a type of run that shows off what TASing can do. It's ingenious in its own way, and I'm heartily voting Yes again.
I have to say that I'm just feeling the opposite. Sure human players don't remember all the presses they've made, because they don't want to. I hardly think anyone would like to keep the sum of presses in their head when playing a game. So in a way, the minimum presses strategy doesn't make much sense, especially without DDR-style effect. TASing can do all kinds of stuff in a game, like what Mars said, but we have to consider whether it's worthwhile to "show off" a concept like that seriously.
In my opinion, this run, even would been improved, would never look like a TAS. Mars said that he feels he can get it done without using other tools beside S/L, and I agreed, because this is quite a simple task, way easier than "minimum score 500", and I have a feeling myself would complete the task with S/L only with hardly any difficulty.
If not looking the bullet bill manipulation in 8-2, this movie looks just like a newbie playing Super Mario Bros, really. Routes in 1-1 and 1-2 are completely routes that newbies would like to choose, because it's just too easy. And newbies would also bump into a lot of walls, especially pipes, that that's exactly like the run has shown. Some of the newbies I know likes to run through a hammer brother a lot when it's jumping, because it's a safer way for newbies, and that is also shown in this movie. So I think this movie really sets an nice example for newbies how to complete Super Mario Bros with low difficulty, and is that what TASes all about?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
HappyLee wrote:
Some of the newbies I know likes to run through a hammer brother a lot when it's jumping, because it's a safer way for newbies, and that is also shown in this movie.
This is a good point. Ideally, if it can be manipulated, it should be timed that Mario doesn't reach the Hammer Bros till a moment before they jump, so it looks like they're jumping out of Mario's way, as opposed to Mario running underneath them.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I really like the category and I think SMB is great game for that.
It's a simple game, so it's possible to get a low amount of presses without much slowdown, and it's also a popular one, so people will be interested in watching the movie and possibly in the concept in general.
The DDR display is really not needed to make it interesting. Sure it adds to the fun, but just know the game is finish with the minimum amount of presses is enough for me. Watching when a button is pressed is particular relevant in this case, so I think some way to show that should be considered if the movie is published as a secondary encode.
IMO, there is a lot of tases that looking boring and not well played at first, but when you understand more what it is about you see why it was done that way. In this cases I watch it again and really enjoy it. One example that comes to mind is a TAS of Crash Bandicoot (can't remember exactly which one), the player die often, slowdown when it's apparently not necessary and get out of way to destroy boxes for no apparent reason. After reading the submissions notes i learned that this is all necessary to not get a cristal or boxes thrown at your head when the stage finishes, which costs time.
I'm just saying that because it seems to be the opinion of some, it's not mine though. The objective is very clear, and if you see Mario slowing down you know it's because it saves a press, now or in the future. If it seems suspicious, the subtitles or the submission text really helps understanding.
As for the improvement made by HappyLee, he looks like will not submit it. Even if he would, I'm not sure if the promise of a better TAS should be enough to reject the one we have. It's always possible to obsolete it later.
So, all reasons explained, I vote yes.
I feel that this category really lends itself well to the theme of this site: playing beyond human means. Very few human players could keep a running tally in their head of all the presses they've made, so this is totally a type of run that shows off what TASing can do. It's ingenious in its own way, and I'm heartily voting Yes again.
I have to say that I'm just feeling the opposite. Sure human players don't remember all the presses they've made, because they don't want to. I hardly think anyone would like to keep the sum of presses in their head when playing a game.
Who cares if they would or wouldn't remember their key presses? Most people don't play with the exact amount of time they've played in mind either. It's still impressive from a technical standpoint, and people can relate to the idea of pressing very few buttons (much more so than walking through the game or getting the lowest score).
HappyLee wrote:
So in a way, the minimum presses strategy doesn't make much sense, especially without DDR-style effect. TASing can do all kinds of stuff in a game, like what Mars said, but we have to consider whether it's worthwhile to "show off" a concept like that seriously.
And I think that this idea has the merit to be taken seriously. It is entertaining, it pushes the game to it's limits, and it's easy to relate to (read: not arbitrary). Yes, it needs the DDR-style effect, but so what?
HappyLee wrote:
In my opinion, this run, even would been improved, would never look like a TAS.
Because you have a preconceived notion of what a TAS should look like? Yeah, it's a little sloppy time-wise as you've shown, but that only makes me more excited for the future videos in this category.
HappyLee wrote:
Mars said that he feels he can get it done without using other tools beside S/L, and I agreed, because this is quite a simple task, way easier than "minimum score 500", and I have a feeling myself would complete the task with S/L only with hardly any difficulty.
I don't know if I'd agree that it's easier than the "minimum score 500", but I could be completely off base there. Also, as Brandon has said, try doing it without tool assistance and see how it goes. Plus, in other games getting minimum presses would not be as trivial and would certainly requite TAS even if this particular game doesn't (and it still might).
HappyLee wrote:
If not looking the bullet bill manipulation in 8-2, this movie looks just like a newbie playing Super Mario Bros, really. Routes in 1-1 and 1-2 are completely routes that newbies would like to choose, because it's just too easy. And newbies would also bump into a lot of walls, especially pipes, that that's exactly like the run has shown. Some of the newbies I know likes to run through a hammer brother a lot when it's jumping, because it's a safer way for newbies, and that is also shown in this movie.
Yes. Without the knowledge that the player is trying to minimize his key presses, this run would look like someone is just fooling around, but with that knowledge the viewer can see and be entertained by the thought that goes behind the otherwise apparently stupid actions. Those bumping into walls and pipes and such all have a purpose towards the end goal, and knowing that gives the views that "Oh wow! I would have never thought of that!" moment which is part of the entertainment.
HappyLee wrote:
So I think this movie really sets an nice example for newbies how to complete Super Mario Bros with low difficulty, and is that what TASes all about?
I think this movie really sets a nice example for how interesting and entertaining minimum presses runs could be in the future. Maybe this isn't the best game choice for a minimum presses run if this is as good as it gets (which as you have shown it isn't). Still, maybe this run can still be improved in crazy ways that haven't been noticed yet that could only make it more impressive. And still, for other games the minimum number of presses might not be nearly as trivial as it is here thus giving rise to runs that are by no means a newbie undertaking.
In the end, if you want to argue about the quality of this specific run and it's room for improvement, or if you want to argue about the game choice I could agree with you there, but your arguments against minimum presses runs just don't hold water in my opinion.
Even though I know it aims for the minimum presses I still don't find it impressive anywhere, in any ways.
To be a Tool-Assisted Superplay, the run has to be "super" first. Judging from the technical standpoint, entertainment, and difficulty, it doesn't seem to be "super" at all, and that's fully agreed in our Chinese SMB forum which produces world-classed TASes. This run has it's advantages, but mostly I was bored watching it all the time.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
The concept of a minimal presses run is interesting, but I think SMB is a poor choice to illustrate it. The run looks too sloppy. No vote.
Maybe a puzzle game or something grid-based would look better.
Here's another DEMO till 4-2 with an easy 714 frame (12 seconds) improvement in 1-2.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/79973731/HappyLee_SMB_MPdemo4-1.fcm
And somebody please help me check the sum of key presses in my DEMO to make sure it's exactly the same as Brandon's, because that lua script won't run on my computer due to some reasons.
Even I can't make the run interesting, that's the truth. I'd probably test out 4-2 though, to save some presses.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Here's another DEMO till 4-2 with an easy 714 frame (12 seconds) improvement in 1-2.
We got your point the first time you made an improvement. You really didn't need to post another demo saying how "easy" it was.
Not everything related to SMB has to be about you. We, who are lesser people compared to you and your clan, only look to make a TAS of SMB sometimes for fun. Yes, the goal may or may not be suitable for publishing here. So what? You've stated your opinion many times already and that should be all that you need to say. Someone did it for fun and submitted here; he's not asking for anything else.
Talking about fun, there should be 2 kinds of fun for a TAS: the fun of making this TAS and the fun of other people watching it. In my case, I always try my best to increase the latter, even if I have to loose a great deal of the former.
But when we're discussing about whether a movie should be published, we're not going something like: "Hey, this movie's fun, let's publish it." "Hey, that movie's fun, let's publish it!" Up to now, I always think TASVideos is a fair place, and sometimes, even a cruel place, and that's why most of our publications remain on a high level. As Mars said a bit of angrily to me yesterday: "If TASVideos are going to publish such a movie that only takes several S/L to finish, then I have nothing to say."
SMB TASers like me and Mars may not see Super Mario Bros like the way normal people do. SMB is more than just a game, it's a whole new world for us. We all know there are million ways to perform Super Mario Bros, and not all of them have a chance to make to publications on TASVideos. Mars said to me last night that in no way would any true SMB TASers vote Yes on this submission, and he thought that I was like arguing with some newbies of SMB. I'm not saying that I totally agree with him, but you've see how we truly feel about SMB TASes.
As for me, I still can't understand how could a movie like this has any technical standpoint or entertainment, and I quite don't understand how would 142 presses be your 8th attempt at this feat. It seems to me that I would end up at around 146 presses for the first time if I was doing it, honestly.
Remember my latest SMB warpless run? No I think you've probably forgotten it already. I spent two years working extremely hard on it to maximize both the speed and the entertainment to the top, and I can't think of a single reason why it shouldn't be a Star movie, but it end up not having a moon at least, and with only 7.5 votes in such a long time. I have to say that I was disappointed, but, TASing goes on.
TASing shouldn't make things the easiest way, in some ways, TASing is tough. And we should not judge a book by its cover, we have to go deeper than that.
Actually we're arguing for the very same purpose: to make our site a better place, so there's no need to be "so what" all the time. Please forgive me if I said anything wrong, because I don't really know how to express myself well in English. But I can honestly say again that I have absolutely no disrespect to anything or anyone related.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
I'm not saying that I totally agree with him, but you've see how we truly feel about SMB TASes.
No offense intended, but that sounds a bit pretentious. I know-You're probably not, and you do put a lot of work into a TAS (probably more work than was put into this) but, what you're saying about SMB being a different world to you just seems, well, lame.
And honestly, let's look at this rationally. If normal people can appreciate something and those who make super-fast insane TAS's cannot, well, the numbers are clearly against you and for the normal people.
