Topic by Derakon

Posted: 6/19/2011 5:41 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

I always thought that /players 8 was harder for young sorcs than most others, mostly because their offense is rate-limited by their MP and they can't take hits. Meanwhile, a barbarian or paladin, who's already set to tank the enemies more or less indefinitely, just spends 4x longer mashing them into paste, and an amazon just buys a few extra quivers of arrows, and so on. But yeah, the only real use I see for the /players 8 command is to get access to important skills like Teleport earlier, via increased experience per kill. I'm not certain just how much earlier you'd be able to manage, given the slowdown in killing that that command also entails. The better drops you get are more or less irrelevant in a TAS since you can manipulate drops...I guess if they also increase the boss drop sizes they could be useful if you need to manipulate several items from the boss drop pool though.

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Posted: 6/19/2011 8:02 PM

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moozooh

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Joined: 8/4/2005
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Sorcs get crowd control and delayed kills (to be able to farm exp without remaining in one spot) much quicker than most other classes, melee especially. And since getting hit in a TAS is something that shouldn't happen anyway, she can safely ignore everything defense-related, vitality included, and focus on offense power and mana replenishment solely.

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Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 6/19/2011 8:33 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Ah, you were talking about TASing, fair enough. I was talking about my experiences in unassisted (and indeed, non-speedrun) play. Naturally that's going to be considerably different from tool-assisted play.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 6/19/2011 8:46 PM

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moozooh

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Joined: 8/4/2005
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Location: Away

Naturally we discuss TAS strategies in the TAS forum. :P

Warp wrote:

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Posted: 7/6/2011 10:09 PM

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IMPblackbelt

Joined: 6/19/2005
Posts: 180

What about a charged item? I think a wand/rod/staff in the spare weapon set might provide an extra skill that could help with entertainment or efficiency. Maybe something with charges of Bone Wall could provide a better enemy lineup or some interesting entertainment? Perhaps curses, or extra elemental attacks?

Posted: 7/8/2011 2:13 AM

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natt

Editor, Emulator Coder, Site Developer

Joined: 5/11/2011
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Location: Murka

IMPblackbelt wrote:

What about a charged item? I think a wand/rod/staff in the spare weapon set might provide an extra skill that could help with entertainment or efficiency. Maybe something with charges of Bone Wall could provide a better enemy lineup or some interesting entertainment? Perhaps curses, or extra elemental attacks?

Can't get Bone Wall on magic/rares. Might be on some uniques (I know bone prison is on some unique boots). Can only get these skills on magic/rares (item type, level, etc may vary): magic arrow fire arrow inner sight cold arrow multishot power strike exploding arrow ice arrow charged strike freezing arrow lightning strike firebolt charged bolt ice bolt telekinesis frost nova ice blast fireball nova lightning enchant chain lightning teleport glacial spike meteor blizzard frozen orb teeth dim vision weaken poison dagger terror confusion life tap bone spear attract lower resist poison nova bone spirit sacrifice holy bolt zeal vengeance blessed hammer bash stun concentrate grim ward firestorm fissure twister volcano tornado

Posted: 7/9/2011 3:15 AM

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IMPblackbelt

Joined: 6/19/2005
Posts: 180

Some of the curses could be very, very useful. A wand with Lower Resist on it could help significantly, especially if you're manipulating for maximum spell damage every chance you get. An off-kilter element for the Sorceress, or perhaps a Blessed Hammer/Bone Spear would help with enemies with significant resistances or immunities in Nightmare or Hell, if we go that far... Maybe Attract or Grim Ward for lining targets up for more effective killing or entertainment? Any other thoughts?

Posted: 7/9/2011 4:20 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Sorceress won't be killing most enemies she encounters anyway; she'll be too busy teleport-spamming her way through the game.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 7/9/2011 4:27 PM

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Toothache

Active player (276)

Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791

That does bring up a point for planning a Sorceress run - getting to L18 so she can use Teleport in the first place. Speedrun tactics, while segmented, aim to have her reach L12 before seeing Andariel for Fireball. First half of the run will see her doing a lot of killing, although if manipulation of lots of boss packs and champion packs can be arranged, the time can be significantly cut for this. While you are right, the latter half of the TAS will see very little kills outside of mandatory enemies like Act bosses, it should be possible to get a few levels during a run through to Baal from L18 to help scale skills. Sorceress should probably also be picking up a few runes to make Leaf staff, and Stealth armour is great too, but neither of those are equippable until around the same time you get Teleport.

Posted: 7/9/2011 7:20 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

Yeah, I was mostly reacting to the "Get something that attacks with an element the Sorceress doesn't use" statement -- she'll be only killing bosses and high-value targets, which can be manipulated to be vulnerable to the elements she uses by default. Lower Resist, though, will generally be helpful because it works directly with the Sorc's primary damage sources.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 7/9/2011 10:41 PM

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Toothache

Active player (276)

Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791

Would Sorceress truly be the fastest class, though, for a Normal mode run? The competition between this class and the Assassin for the SDA published runs has always been close. Advantages Assassin has over Sorceress: Does not need to stop moving to attack - can drop traps in large group of enemies and continue running. Sorc can do this as well, but not as immediately as Assassin can. Burst of Speed - combined with a low level set of boots like Vidala's Fetlock for some insane FR/W. Probably just as fast as Teleport in the long run, since it is also a very early skill to obtain. Overall, the very early skill access may just overall have the edge over the benefits of Teleport. Sorceress is limited by quite a slow kill speed early on, and a pretty high level requirement for Teleport. Both classes benefit from favourable map spawns of course, but where the Sorc has to stop and level to be able to skip large portions of the game, the Assassin just can keep going and going all the way through, and doesn't need to dedicate time to levelling at any point - she will hit the L20 requirement for the Ancients very easily, sometime in Act 3 I'd wager. Leaf staff might be good to manipulate for when she has the level requirement Lower Resist wand is an obviously good weapon switch for all spellcasting classes.

Posted: 7/9/2011 10:55 PM

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FreezerBurns

Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 57

I'd think so. With proper TASing(and ungodly patience), you could set up a very nice layout of XP shrines and bosspacks for the sorc to get teleport faster, at which point it's time to bounce around the map like an idiot. There's also the 100% run, but the sorc wins hands down on that one, as she has 2+ hours to run around with teleport there.

Posted: 7/9/2011 11:18 PM

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Toothache

Active player (276)

Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791

I've no doubt Sorceress wins in 100% run. For normal mode run, the problem is hitting L18 in time to use Teleport - and that's the big issue. For the Assassin, hitting L6 is very quickly done in comparison to the length of a run, for Burst of Speed. This will come as a consequence of running through the areas Blood Moor, Cold Plains, Stony Field, Underground Passage, Dark Woods, Tamoe Highlands, Outer Cloister, Barracks, Jail, Inner Cloister, Catacombs, in order, picking off whatever uniques and superuniques happen to be in the way of all that. It may also be worth visiting Tristram for a nice experience boost there - it can be very often populated with more than half a dozen combined champion and boss packs. Even with all this considered, it still takes a good 20-25 minutes to run through, while levelling to hit L12 - which both Assassin and Sorceress need for their best killing skills in a Normal playthrough. Sorc should be pumping Fire Bolt for Fire Ball synergy, and Assassin Fire Blast for Wake of Fire. Fire spells are an obvious choice, since Andariel has a nice weakness to Fire, as well as the possibility of using Leaf runeword staff for a great boost there. Hitting L6 can be done very quickly for an Assassin, and she'll have the benefit of that skill for the entire run. For a sorceress, hitting L18 will come quite late - maybe in Act 3 if no time is spent dedicating time to levelling her. For a TAS, remember, there will be no save-loading to take advantage of, so superuniques can't be killed multiple times and manipulating lots of experience shrines will be a difficult challenge, if the game allows for it at all. Another thing to consider is that, without a nice amount of +skills gear, Teleport at L1 is very expensive to cast, and it will burn through her mana like nothing. Assassin is obviously less potion-intensive in this respect, should need to spend very little time shopping for potions can keep herself going by collecting what gets dropped along the way.

Posted: 7/10/2011 1:35 AM

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Saethori

Joined: 6/26/2011
Posts: 167

I'll have to echo Tooth's thoughts on this one; on a TAS standpoint, it just takes too long to reach Teleport, and is very likely too mana-intensive to use effectively. After all, we don't want to hang around old acts to farm experience, the best idea is to try to defeat Baal and enter the resulting endgame portal as soon as possible, and likely at as low a level as possible; farming for level-ups will take too much time, and should be avoided unless required for the level-20 requirement on the Arreat Summit dungeon. On a semi-related note, it seems to be that Stamina potions may actually prove to be of use. It seems counter-intuitive to put levels into Vitality for this run, so the Stamina meter will likely be a concern for everyone but the post-Teleport Sorceress. I imagine, though, if it does need to be recharged, that it would be best to do so while also gaining experience. ...Man, this game already sounds ridiculously difficult to optimize.

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Posted: 7/10/2011 4:23 AM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

As far as mana is concerned, you can buy all the mana potions you need in the town. It's not like money's going to be an issue. I suspect even the assassin would want a few mana potions just to be able to toss down traps as fast as possible, though she might be able to get by with ones found as she goes.

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Posted: 7/10/2011 6:36 AM

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exileut

Joined: 2/15/2009
Posts: 329

Level 1 Teleport takes what 10% mana? It's something ridiculous. I remember doing Meph runs with bad gear and I would be out of mana by the time I got to him from the durance of hate waypoint. I understand using mana potions, but even with TAS precision they recharge mana at a fixed (slow) rate. I haven't played this game in probably 9 years, but those are my two cents.

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Posted: 7/10/2011 7:38 AM

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Saethori

Joined: 6/26/2011
Posts: 167

Level 1 Teleport costs 24 mana. Each additional point in it reduces its cost by 1 (until it is eventually free). Right off the bat, we can see that putting additional points in this is a waste of effort, when those points are much better spent increasing damage to take out bosses. It's been a very long time since I've played the game, so I don't remember exactly how much of a standard mana bar this will be at 18... I just know it's not going to be cheap. On the flip side, it's not like any of the stats actually influence damage, so nearly all of the level-ups until 18 could possibly get away with being in Energy (with probably a bit in Strength for whatever equipment you get along the way). Mana also refills slowly (if using game versions after a certain patch number) instead of instantaneously when using potions, so there's also the matter of whether teleport-spam might actually outpace this potion mana recovery.

First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats. Yay, favoritism.

Posted: 7/10/2011 7:44 AM

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NrgSpoon

Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646

If you like teleport so much, how many charges of it do you get on an item?

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Posted: 7/10/2011 8:40 AM

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Toothache

Active player (276)

Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791

Potential equipment that can be manipulated for a Sorceress: Lenymo - +15 Mana, 30% mana regen, L7 equippable Hand of Broc - +20 Mana, L5 equippable Magefist - +1 fire skills, +20% FCR, 25% mana regen, L23 equippable (only for endgame in normal) Tarnhelm - +1 all skills, 25-50% mf, L15 equippable Treads of Cthon - 30% FR/W, 50% slower stamina drain, L15 equippable Vidala's Fetlock - 30% FR/W The Eye of Etlich - +1 all skills, L15 equippable Arcanna's Sign - 20% mana regen, +15 mana, L15 equippable Manald Heal - 20% mana regen, L15 equippable Ring of the Apprentice - 10% FCR, L3 equippable Most of the gear that really boosts the Sorc is available to use at L15. Finding a +1/+2 Orb or Staff for her primary killing spell will also be nice until hitting L19 for Leaf. Nadir, with its +2 Mana per kill and +5 Str bonus may also be worth considering, at the very least to cut down the Str requirement for equipment. For body armour, nothing really helps until L17, when Stealth is equippable. 25% FCR, 25% FR/W, +15% Mana regen and +15% max stamina all go a long way to aiding a Sorceress. For charges of Teleport, the earliest they can be used is L18 for a Sorc, which is when she gets the skill anyway. It can appear on a magic Amulet, Circlet, Orb or Staff, with 22 charges of the skill - however, the affix is L48 for Amulets and Circlets, putting it out of range of Normal mode enemies.

Posted: 7/10/2011 10:23 PM

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Highness

Player (70)

Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
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There is a discussion at SDA about an 8-player run by the way. Might be cool to check out their thoughts about it. http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/diablo_2_lod_100_8playerteamrun_planning_thread_276.html Personally I hope to see a reality of this TAS as it would be a total killer. Even if it won't be an eight player run this will be awesome I'd say.

Posted: 8/26/2011 5:52 AM

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Lord_Bahamut

Joined: 9/7/2005
Posts: 143
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

What about manipulating an early superunique, like Blood Raven or Rakanishu, to drop a ring or amulet with +1 to Teleport?

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Posted: 8/26/2011 8:59 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
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Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but there are two problems with this: one is that you have to be at least level 18 to equip an item carrying Teleport, and another is that its item level would require a Superunique at a similar monster level (Rakanishu is level 8). So early Superuniques seem to be out of the question.

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Posted: 8/26/2011 9:53 AM

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Toothache

Active player (276)

Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 791

Affix Level is 24 for a Staff or Orb with charges of Teleport, and 48 for Amulets and Rings, so getting a drop would be nigh on useless for a normal run. I'm not able to find information on the inherent + to individual skills for a Staff, but I'm certain getting +Teleport would require a similar level. Oh and only the Sorceress has L18 requirement for Teleport related skills - all other classes have at least L24 requirement.

Posted: 8/26/2011 11:17 AM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

+teleport is right out. Getting +teleport on a staffmod is lvlreq 18 and Sorceress only. At that point, the sorc might just dump points into the skill itself. Getting +teleport for any class is Enigma only, lvlreq 65 and very difficult to manipulate, even with TASing tools. Charges are possible, but only feasible on a 2h-staff. (There are no rings with teleport charges. On Amulets and Circlets, the level requirement is 48. Orbs are sorceress only. The unique Spellsteel and the set item Naj's Puzzler have lvlreqs 47 and 43, respectively.) On a 2h-staffs, lvlreq is 24, and it's 30 charges until you need to repair. Too late for a normal mode run. I suppose you could try an Assassin 100% run with teleport charges on nightmare and hell. Though the rune or gold drops to repair the charges would be huge, and the slower casting times of assassins will be noticeable.

m00

Posted: 10/7/2011 3:26 AM

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Aqfaq

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Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!

Has anyone considered the possibility of taking knockback boosts from enemies to save a few frames? If I recall correctly, the only knockbacking enemies were some vipers in act 2, some water creatures in act 3 and some exploding enemies in act 5? (There are probably more than that.) For full effect, the idea would be to manipulate a line of enemies and get a long series of knockbacks from them. Would it require fast damage recovery to be effective? Or is this a completely useless idea for some reason? (I'm not expert with the game. Only completed it once.)