Chrono Trigger - 100% TAS in 5:17

Recorded on Snes9x 1.43-improvement12 (but should work fine on future versions of the Snes9x 1.43 series as well)

Sync Settings

  • WIP 1 Timing: ON
  • Left+Right/Up+Down: OFF
  • Volume Envelope Height Reading: OFF
  • Fake Mute desync workaround: ON
  • Sync samples with sound CPU: ON

Attributes of this run

  • aims for fastest time with 100% completion (definition below)
  • takes damage to save time
  • manipulates luck
  • avoids glitches for classic, natural sake
  • Genre: RPG
  • Total Frames: 1243936

About the Game

Chrono Trigger is a great role-playing game made by Square. It is known as one of the best RPG games of all time. The story is about time-traveling in which a group of young adventurers is trying to save the future by defeating a mighty creature called "Lavos" which has infected and destroyed the world.

Moviemaking & Comments

Finally it's done, a run I wanted to TAS for a long time already, 100% for Chrono Trigger in legit/glitchless conditions. This 100% completion requires:
  • getting at least 1 of every Item/Weapon/Armor/Helmet/Accessory (186 unique items)
  • collecting all Power/Magic/Speed Tabs (except of LV99 Pink Nu reward)
  • opening all the Sealed Chests (Black Boxes) / Sealed Doors in every time period
  • finishing all sidequests
  • defeating every boss
  • defeating every form of Spekkio (except LV99 Pink Nu - separate demonstration of that form available here)
  • learning all Single/Double/Triple Techs for each character
Game clock completion is 5 hours and 17 minutes at the moment the Lavos Core is defeated, which is pretty exactly a 4 hour improvement over my 100% ZSNES run [dead link removed].

Thanks

  • hero of the day - for the Masa&Mune strategy
  • inichi - for the critical hit tables
Enjoy!

Nach: Sorry for the delay, I spent a long time analyzing this, and mulling over what everyone had to say.
Watching the run carefully, a few important points occurred to me:
  • A non-typical full Chrono innocent verdict was achieved.
  • Many chests are skipped which will make people question how can this be 100% if they were missed?
  • A lot of planning went into route and selections to optimize this. The route and selections were very well selected. In a few places, it looks like some time can be shaved, but overall, this is superb.
  • I know the game extremely well, yet I was surprised by a false wall demoed in the run which I wasn't aware of. Other people in the thread who also know the game fairly well were surprised by a few points (which I myself found surprising that some people weren't aware of them), so this game probably has something fresh to offer to pretty much everyone out there.
  • A typical RPG player goes hunting around all the areas for items, and doesn't just rush to bosses like TASs do, so this run feels more natural, except for the fact it's done in a third or quarter of the time most would expect.
  • Many of the interesting side things the game has to offer were skipped.
To address some of the negative aspects:
  • Snes9x v1.4x was used, which doesn't emulate this game as well as it can be. However, this run was submitted right on the border, and clearly was in development for a long time prior, so I will let this slide.
  • There were a few boring grinding parts, but thankfully they can be fast forwarded without missing anything, and didn't detract too much from the run, as the voting showed.
  • This run is not 100%. In my opinion, a true 100% would leave no chest unopened, and would demonstrate every variation of every single ending, which would need at least two full runs through the game. However what this run did do, and do well, was acquire the maximum amount of unique equipment it could in a single pass, and dealt with all significant chests and side-quests.
  • The run indeed was not perfect, but very few people know the game remotely as well as Saturn has demonstrated, to even notice or know of the flaws, with most of the commented flaws in fact being misunderstandings about the game.
  • The demonstration right before Lavos indeed wasted time, but I felt was a very nice polish which made the run even better, and allows random viewers to appreciate what was collected.
All in all, after careful deliberation, I find this run publish worthy if an appropriate label is given. Accepting as a new branch for Hoshino Trigger, whatever it will be called (not 100%).

DeHackEd: Need to redo the videos since the branch name has changed. In progress.

Saturn: Way to go to turn an appropriate standard label into one based on a subjective opinion of one person. Allow me to ask this:
  • How does "All techniques, Max equipment" mention things this run does that otherwise wouldn't be necessary, such as fully completing all sidequests, fighting all bosses/Spekkio forms (with one exception mentioned above), and collecting all Tabs and sealed chests/doors? You could probably save around an hour from skipping all that by aiming for solely "All techs and max equipment", for a gigantic obsoletion of this run.
Let's face it, it will be impossible to get an unanimous agreement on what a 100% run for a game like this one is, since opinions will always be different. One could argue that you have to talk to every single talkable character, max out the money to 9999999+ G, use every weapon and tech at least one time on every possible enemy, spend hours on meaningless, boring, and repetitional quests to get max cat food, cats and all clones, walk over every pixel in every possible room in the game, and other nonsense like that.
This run gets/shows the most essential things that contribute to a 100% completion in an entertainment oriented way, and there is hardly any better single-term that can sum up the actions done in it to make the watcher clear what to expect overall.
Otherwise please go ahead and rename the Secret of Evermore 100% run to something else as well, since it also doesn't open every chest.
EDIT: So it looks like Nach isn't interested to provide reasonable arguments against the point mentioned above or the several comments in the discussion thread that pointed the obvious flaws of this incomplete and misleading label change after all. Clearly defined common sense goals like this 100% one, that were easily accepted here in the past, are apparently too difficult to recognize for some of the judges nowadays, and the other TASvideos staff members seem to be not interested to have properly named content on their site either. Alright then, so be it.


Joined: 5/2/2009
Posts: 656
Did you killed one of each monster in the game?
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =) (ノಥ益ಥ)ノ
Joined: 5/12/2010
Posts: 38
OmegaWatcher wrote:
Did you killed one of each monster in the game?
Not even close. Lots were completely avoided as early as the Yodu Des in Guardia castle. I was immensely entertained by this run. I loved it from beginning to end. However, it's not what I would call 100%. You didn't get all chests, you didn't fight the final Spekio, some events were not done. If you're going for 100%, go for 100%. This is more of an "One-of-Every Item, All Tech, All sidequest" run. I vote Meh for entertainment value, but incorrect label. EDIT: One other thing that just occurred to me. Showing off that you have all the items and techs at the end of the video is not in the spirit of the speed run. That information can be observed by any number of other methods.
Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 43
Location: Bogotá, Colombia
My one qualm was not seeing Marle bring the Chrono Trigger. One of my favorite moments.
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Player (13)
Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 506
The more that I think about the 100% definition of this run, the more odd I think it is. I don't think it really matters as far as publishing this submission, but I think it will for obsoletion attempts:
getting at least 1 of every Item/Armor/Helmet/Accessory (186 unique items)
Great goal to add to 100% definition. (99 of everything is not possible without New Game + or memory corruption anyway as far as I know.)
collecting all Power/Magic/Speed Tabs (except of LV99 Pink Nu reward)
Most of them are just lying around, but some of them require completing events, so it's debatable. Personally I wouldn't include this in 100% definition but it makes sense. The Pink Nu exception doesn't however. (More on that later.)
opening all the Sealed Chests (Black Boxes) / Sealed Doors in every time period
Why sealed chests and not normal chests? Why upgrading sealed chests a requirement? Actually, since when is opening chests and doors considered important for a 100% goal?
finishing all sidequests
Good goal for 100% definition. (Actually, this item alone is SDA's 100% definition.)
defeating every boss
How do you define what's a boss in this game? The DS database? Shouldn't that include Pink Nu?
defeating every form of Spekkio (except LV99 Pink Nu)
OK, I understand that grinding is boring as hell - that's why I never attempted to beat Pink Nu on the SNES version. But really, he's the hardest boss of the game! It's ridiculous to not include him if you include all the other easy forms!
learning all Single/Double/Triple Techs for each character
I understand the logic behind this. However, by excluding Pink Nu because of grinding, then this requirement should be excluded as well because it also (in theory at least) requires grinding.
Joined: 2/26/2011
Posts: 98
How about allowing the use of a glitch to activate the final form of Spekkio?
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
SmashManiac wrote:
1.
collecting all Power/Magic/Speed Tabs (except of LV99 Pink Nu reward)
Most of them are just lying around, but some of them require completing events, so it's debatable. Personally I wouldn't include this in 100% definition but it makes sense. The Pink Nu exception doesn't however. (More on that later.) 2.
opening all the Sealed Chests (Black Boxes) / Sealed Doors in every time period
Why sealed chests and not normal chests? Why upgrading sealed chests a requirement? Actually, since when is opening chests and doors considered important for a 100% goal? 3.
defeating every boss
How do you define what's a boss in this game? The DS database? Shouldn't that include Pink Nu? 4.
defeating every form of Spekkio (except LV99 Pink Nu)
OK, I understand that grinding is boring as hell - that's why I never attempted to beat Pink Nu on the SNES version. But really, he's the hardest boss of the game! It's ridiculous to not include him if you include all the other easy forms! 5.
learning all Single/Double/Triple Techs for each character
I understand the logic behind this. However, by excluding Pink Nu because of grinding, then this requirement should be excluded as well because it also (in theory at least) requires grinding.
1. Tabs are limited, rare items that are quite useful, so they should have their own spot independent of regular items. The only debatable thing is the Pink Nu exception, and only a few of them require to finish otherwise meaningless events, but they are done very quickly while also showing more of the game. 2. Same as with Tabs. There are only a few of them, and most contain unique and useful items you can't get anywhere else. Upgrading them is not a requirement and was only done when needed. 3. Easily definable through the boss music themes. 4. I don't think seeing a repeated battle for more than 3 hours (if optimized) is a good option to include in an entertainment oriented 100% run. But here is a video of that battle showing how it would look in a TAS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SP2yO8Abms 5. There were actually less than 10 avoidable battles needed solely for tech point earning purposes, and all of them were on the way without any need for backtracking or repetition, with only the exception of the Tyrano Lair where it was required to get Tabs and unique items afterwards. I don't think this can be a comparison to LV99 grinding.
la mammal wrote:
How about allowing the use of a glitch to activate the final form of Spekkio?
Not an option in a glitchless run.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Player (13)
Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 506
Saturn wrote:
Tabs are limited, rare items
Considering that you can charm Power Tabs from Tubsters, an infinitely-respawning enemy, that argument doesn't hold water for that particular item. (I know that you can also charm Magic Tabs from Aliens and Speed Tabs from Panels, but I think they don't respawn even if you access the Black Omen from a previous era.)
Saturn wrote:
There are only a few [sealed chests], and most contain unique and useful items you can't get anywhere else.
I really think chest content should be irrelevant to give any value to the chest itself. It just seems arbitrary to me to only consider a specific type of chest and not all types too. Doors too. I'm curious about other people's opinion on the matter hpwever...
Saturn wrote:
Upgrading them is not a requirement and was only done when needed.
Oh I didn't understand that properly, sorry.
Saturn wrote:
Easily definable through the boss music themes.
So Sir Krawlie isn't a boss for you? The bestiary in the DS version classifies him as such, and I know many people - but not all - agree. (I didn't check your run yet to see if you beat him or not. I think it's required in a glitchless run anyway, but that's not the point - I'm just trying to determine what 100% should be.)
Saturn wrote:
I don't think seeing a repeated battle for more than 3 hours (if optimized) is a good option to include in an entertainment oriented 100% run.
I agree. My point was the opposite however: if you need an exception to the rule, why have the rule in the first place?
Saturn wrote:
But here is a video of that battle showing how it would look in a TAS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SP2yO8Abms
Ha ha, thanks! :)
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
I'm kind of surprised that the Pink Nu battle doesn't consist of Ayla critting him for 9999 over and over again. Is he immune to physical damage or something?
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Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
SmashManiac wrote:
1.
Saturn wrote:
Tabs are limited, rare items
Considering that you can charm Power Tabs from Tubsters, an infinitely-respawning enemy, that argument doesn't hold water for that particular item. (I know that you can also charm Magic Tabs from Aliens and Speed Tabs from Panels, but I think they don't respawn even if you access the Black Omen from a previous era.) 2.
Saturn wrote:
There are only a few [sealed chests], and most contain unique and useful items you can't get anywhere else.
I really think chest content should be irrelevant to give any value to the chest itself. It just seems arbitrary to me to only consider a specific type of chest and not all types too. Doors too. I'm curious about other people's opinion on the matter hpwever... 3.
Saturn wrote:
Easily definable through the boss music themes.
So Sir Krawlie isn't a boss for you? The bestiary in the DS version classifies him as such, and I know many people - but not all - agree. (I didn't check your run yet to see if you beat him or not. I think it's required in a glitchless run anyway, but that's not the point - I'm just trying to determine what 100% should be.) 4.
Saturn wrote:
I don't think seeing a repeated battle for more than 3 hours (if optimized) is a good option to include in an entertainment oriented 100% run.
I agree. My point was the opposite however: if you need an exception to the rule, why have the rule in the first place?
1. Only Power Tabs are unlimited, while I was talking about all Tab types together. The other good thing about getting them all is that the run can serve as a video-guide on all the Tab locations. 2. There are only 2 types of chests, the sealed ones and the regular. The former amount is pretty limited and contains only valuable, rare items that are to like ~80% required/worth to get anyway, while the latter is available everywhere with many of them having useless duplicate items you don't need. 3. Maybe a small mini-boss at most. Either way, he was defeated as well. 4. Because 1. the Spekkio battles give you additional Tabs required for a complete list, and 2. represent interesting battles that can especially in the later forms be a real challenge if you don't use the right strategies against them.
Derakon wrote:
I'm kind of surprised that the Pink Nu battle doesn't consist of Ayla critting him for 9999 over and over again. Is he immune to physical damage or something?
Yes.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
creaothceann
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SmashManiac wrote:
if you need an exception to the rule, why have the rule in the first place?
Every rule has exceptions.
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
creaothceann wrote:
SmashManiac wrote:
if you need an exception to the rule, why have the rule in the first place?
Every rule has exceptions.
Sure, but if you have to make an exception, that means it's not really a 100% run but a 99% run.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 6/8/2005
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin
I like this. It shows a lot more of the game. There are a lot of protesters against calling it 100%. So what DO we call it?
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I suppose it's a playaround? It attempts to show off as much of the game as possible, in a way that is fast but not at the speed record.
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I have a full set of encoded videos ready for uploading assuming this gets accepted.
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I watched this entire run at normal speed. I thoroughly enjoyed this entire run. I saw the optimization errors early in the run which looked a bit sloppy, but if the author had burned himself out by restarting late in the run, the rest of this amazingly enjoyable run might never have been completed. The errors led to only a few seconds of lost time at most. Overall, the time competition for this sort of run would likely be oriented more toward route planning than minor movement and luck manipulation optimization, and the route planning in this was impressive, especially considering the complexity of routes. As a purist, I would have preferred the full level ** Spekkio run with opening all the treasures and talking to all the NPCs to see all the possible dialog and fighting all the enemies and going back and getting all the endings as 100%, but that's probably not as enjoyable to watch for others, considering it would contain far more grinding and running around even if the route plan was perfect. As a side note, I have spent probably 500-1000 hours playing this game throughout my life since I got it when I was very young. Because of this, showcasing the game is very nostalgic to me and I found this run to be much more enjoyable than the glitchy/skippy TASes. I'm voting yes because of the 5 hours I was allowed to spend enjoying this.
Joined: 4/24/2012
Posts: 21
I watched it 1nc, and id watch it again! Yes for sure! Shame to see no's voted.
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
I voted yes. Honestly, I think MORE RPGs could use 100% runs. This should definitely be considered 100% even if it doesn't do all the unimportant stuff.
Limne
Any
Joined: 2/24/2010
Posts: 153
Oh wow, Christmas came late this year! I get Yoshi's Island and a 100% Chrono Trigger. I'm so happy! The specified goals DO seem a tad "arbitrary," but I'd argue they strike a very reasonable balance between speed and entertainment. The glitched runs are fine as an amusement and as community achievements, but I much prefer runs that show off more of the game in question. Obviously opinions on ideal speed-entertainment trade-offs vary. I'm not sure I would have bothered collecting all the tabs or sealed chests, but I think this is more than acceptable. It's subjective, which is why I believe TASing is more of an ART than the SPORT this site has historically treated them as. And I believe that as art, this run is successful. If the definition is an issue, I think we can safely wait until when and if an attempt is made to obsolete before worrying about the details.
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
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All techniques, Max equipment
Add all sidequests to the category name to make it slightly less silly.
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Vykan12 wrote:
All techniques, Max equipment
Add all sidequests to the category name to make it slightly less silly.
It's not all sidequests.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
BigBoct
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What side quests did he not do? I haven't had the time to watch this yet.
Previous Name: boct1584
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boct1584 wrote:
What side quests did he not do? I haven't had the time to watch this yet.
The ones which weren't significant.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
While I really respect Nach's careful consideration in judging this rung, I'm afraid I agree almost entirely with Saturn's rebuttal in the submission comments. It's true that this run makes compromises that make it not /really/ a 100% run. However, there's no feasible way not to make any compromises, and it makes them with coming as close as possible to 100% in mind - no other label can really describe what this run is trying to do without opening the door to really silly obsoletions. I would like to see the branch name changed back.
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Joined: 4/1/2010
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One naming option I haven't seen mentioned is "High%" as contrasted to "Low%". Here the limitation on the top-end of the completion percentage is not what is possible but rather what is sensible from an entertainment perspective. I watched the whole thing end to end, in addition to subjecting one of my partners to a significant portion of it. This is a really good TAS, the sort of thing that I come here for. Definitely moon-tier publication worthy.
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It's hard to follow the rules one invents out of nowhere by himself. It's harder to make other people obey them. Rules mean nothing internally, only naturalness does. Did the goal in the author's mind naturally produce some kind of solution that also feels natural by the audience? Why overcomplicate and overformalize everything afterwards once again? This isn't going anywhere good this way (history proved).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.